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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Free to play: The death of gaming?

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71 posts found
  Mors.Magne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1416

2/22/13 4:02:28 PM#41
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Rhinotones
Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

Sure.

1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

 Brilliant! I agree with everything you've said!   :)

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1288

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

2/22/13 5:48:41 PM#42


Originally posted by Bjelar

Originally posted by boxsnd Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs: 1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots) 2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers" 3) P2W cash shops 4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...) 5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though) 6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing 7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids) 8) daily quests 9) flying mounts 10) culling 11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies 12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)
1) But most players are obnoxious (worse than me, even,) no wonder people will rather go solo :D

2) Agreed. The obnoxious lot likes it easy. (Gimme-gimme-gimme a purple b'fore midnight).

3) Because the cheap obnoxious guys want it all for free. Someone has to pay.

4) The obnoxious guys have a short attention span. Give them a proper world to explore, and they will be off to GW2 before you know it (flame intended).

5) I have no idea what any of that means, but I don't like the look of "AH"s for sure.

6) I'm not sure why this is killing gaming, but I'll take your word for it.

7) I have already forgotten about the empty or overcrowded non-instanced games. Don't remind me of it.

8) Play a game as a substitute for the job you haven't got. Fun is for losers.

9) Dragons shouldn't be pink. That's just wrong.

10) There's nothing like a surprise.

11) They are trying to offset the obnoxious guys on a personal vendetta of hate because the developers care about other things then their own private requests. Did I say requests? I ment demands.

12) Paying players. What an abomination.


ROFL, hilarious. Reply 5, in particular, cracked me up.

Yep, you are both right. Brilliant summation, boxsnd.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Theocritus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3604

2/22/13 7:27:23 PM#43
The pricing model has nothing to do with the death of gaming....Companies have to make money to survive and for many that is the best model...Its also the best model for most of us gamers......With 581 games listed here alone (and there are more than that) I'm not wanting to pay to try out every MMO......I like having the f2p option and then when I find something I like I will pay......
  EsLafiel

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/12
Posts: 91

2/23/13 8:14:45 AM#44
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Rhinotones
Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

Sure.

1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

I pretty much agree with everything you said,,,

 

However number 4 where you talk about gw2, only the basic stuff is mark.  All of the really hard locations or the best locations are never mark.  So yes it be cool if none of it was mark, however at lest they made the coolest places, where ya gotta find them.

  Walderal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/12
Posts: 8

2/23/13 9:08:42 AM#45

In fact, I recently came back to Aion just because it was now F2P and has a model that I can live with.

 

 

 

 

Because of the same reason I do not play in AION anymore ...

Before all were in the same position, now sure all people do not want to pay when it is possible not to pay. But the disadvantages of free game are so awful that killing all interest to the game.

 

Also I have heard that the fees to play have no commection with quality of support or game, anyways 80-90% of money going on advertising.

But anyways I prefer P2P because I do not want to pay when it is possible. In F2P appear people who pay and I feel not comdortable because they have advantage, so they will be better in pvp or trade or crafting. In Aion such model isolates you, you cannot use trade, so you have to sell all by yourself, in guilds I am not going because I do not like to be forced to play when I do not want and to visit game just like a job.

Never complain

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/23/13 9:15:42 AM#46
Originally posted by Souldrainer

Over at the Grim Dawn forums, there is also a thread about this.  It pointed out the many perils of FTP models and what happens when people play these types of games.  I grew curious as to what gamers at large would have to say of this.  So, what say you?

 Sounds like the people over at Grim Dawn know nothing about the genre. The first F2P game came out BEFORE Ultima Online.

Nexon Co, was built on F2P games over the last 15 years and they spent over 400 million dollars last year buying out companies and investing in others....like NCsoft, which they now own 15% of. F2P is not new, you are just seeing it recently because western studies have been behind the game...mostly because they thought screwing customers was the best way to make money, and being the closed minded fools they are, it took a while to actually learn better.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

2/24/13 12:54:28 AM#47
Originally posted by boxsnd

1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

If it needs to be forced, what is the fun? If i want to social, i will type in a chat channel. I don't play games to social.

2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

"Challenging" is different for everyone. Make a difficulty option like in D3. Problem solved.

3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

What is wrong with P2W? If someone is subsidiing your game, isn't it fair that they have some advantage? Plus, there is no "W" in pve.

4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

I don't play game to be a cartographer. I have done that in the original Might & Magic. It is trivial, easy, not challengning and boring.

5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

Most games have trade channels. They are not as efficient as AH. Won't play a game without an AH.

6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

Most game still have /lfg channels. Why would you want to take 1-button cross-server away from those who like it? Don't use it if you don't like it. I don't play games to spend 20 min in chat channel before going into a dungeon.

7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

I love instances. No more camping. More more other groups interfering with your gameplay. Better design of mechanics for known composition. Can do scripted stories much better.

8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

This i agree.

9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

Does not matter in what form, as long as there is fast travel.

11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

No that is only ONE of the reason. Other reasons include no comittment gaming, and easy game hopping. Oh, and competition. If i can have fun at zero cost, why should i pay a sub.

12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

As long as a F2P game is fun, there is no reason not to at least try.

 

  nottuned

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 93

2/25/13 8:55:10 AM#48
free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back
  Etherignis

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 242

2/25/13 10:07:10 AM#49
Originally posted by Rhinotones

I believe the old saying is true, that you get what you pay for. A decent portion of the MMO community would expect regular updates, patches, hotfixes, expansions etc as a part of the service of a quality game. 

To be able to continue to provide these quality services costs $.

I believe that there's room for all but the ones that want the shiney new toys will happily pay for them and the ones that don't want to pay may not get them.

Rhino.

This^

  ElectricWizard

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/12
Posts: 49

2/25/13 10:11:35 AM#50
Originally posted by DamonVile
Bad games are bad games it doesn't matter how their payment set up works. Statments like " the death of gaming " are just for the drama queens out there.

exactly this.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

2/25/13 10:18:38 AM#51
Originally posted by ElectricWizard
Originally posted by DamonVile
Bad games are bad games it doesn't matter how their payment set up works. Statments like " the death of gaming " are just for the drama queens out there.

exactly this.

I'll second that.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

2/25/13 10:21:20 AM#52
Originally posted by nottuned
free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back

This is the problem with people (some but not all) on this forum - elitist and do not see the whole picture. They think their way is the only way to do things and they are mistaken.  Please grow up and undetstand business and that is was the game industry is a business.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  ElectricWizard

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/12
Posts: 49

2/25/13 10:24:43 AM#53
Originally posted by nottuned
free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back

you have zero understanding of the MMO industry, economics and player community.

FTP models can be more lucrative for the companies, and have led to greater growth of smaller studio developers, expanded the market by giving access to player demographics who found credit card only a barrier, and led to a greater buffet of options for gamers of all types and tastes.

And your fusing of a payment model to a certain type of player personality is ludicrous, laughable, and shows your sheer fucktardery. Isnt it ironic that youre worse than the cancer you claim to hate.

so stfu and let the adults talk.

  Dihoru

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2615

2/25/13 10:26:08 AM#54
Originally posted by Etherignis
Originally posted by Rhinotones

I believe the old saying is true, that you get what you pay for. A decent portion of the MMO community would expect regular updates, patches, hotfixes, expansions etc as a part of the service of a quality game. 

To be able to continue to provide these quality services costs $.

I believe that there's room for all but the ones that want the shiney new toys will happily pay for them and the ones that don't want to pay may not get them.

Rhino.

This^

Precisely why F2P > P2P, because you can opt when to pay them and when not to, if you pay a monthly sub you're already giving your right to vote on topics away. Few developers listen to people who've unsubbed in anger over something even if it is a good few thousand or tens of thousands, they will however listen to people who are subbed and represent, to them, their target audience, this is why so many good P2P games went down the shitter and why so many F2P games for better or worse maintain their original forms.

 

  Nikopol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/08
Posts: 627

Brought to you by... The Spirit of Nikopol.

2/25/13 10:37:07 AM#55

To me it's "yes and no".

THE NO: Gaming isn't going to literally die because of free to play; if anything, gamer numbers are going to grow.

THE YES: Though what I look for in a gaming experience, F2P models damage that greatly. I don't exactly hate F2P games, the games themselves can be good or bad just like P2P games, but I have yet to see a cash shop model that doesn't keep annoying me. And the things keep spreading, quite naturally.

Some don't annoy me enough to quit, and some just do. So to be able to play without getting routinely annoyed, I would need a payment that doesn't include a cash shop.

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2320

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

2/25/13 10:37:30 AM#56
Originally posted by ElectricWizard
Originally posted by nottuned
free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back

you have zero understanding of the MMO industry, economics and player community.

FTP models can be more lucrative for the companies, and have led to greater growth of smaller studio developers, expanded the market by giving access to player demographics who found credit card only a barrier, and led to a greater buffet of options for gamers of all types and tastes.

And your fusing of a payment model to a certain type of player personality is ludicrous, laughable, and shows your sheer fucktardery. Isnt it ironic that youre worse than the cancer you claim to hate.

so stfu and let the adults talk.

I sense much anger in this one.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  nottuned

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 93

2/25/13 10:52:57 AM#57
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by ElectricWizard
Originally posted by nottuned
free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back

you have zero understanding of the MMO industry, economics and player community.

FTP models can be more lucrative for the companies, and have led to greater growth of smaller studio developers, expanded the market by giving access to player demographics who found credit card only a barrier, and led to a greater buffet of options for gamers of all types and tastes.

And your fusing of a payment model to a certain type of player personality is ludicrous, laughable, and shows your sheer fucktardery. Isnt it ironic that youre worse than the cancer you claim to hate.

so stfu and let the adults talk.

I sense much anger in this one.

Theres one!! hit em with the radiation!

  FreeJack2000

Novice Member

Joined: 11/11/05
Posts: 28

2/25/13 11:38:55 AM#58

What I have found with Free To Play MMOs that I play or have played.

1. Unless there is some sort of Buy to Play as The Secret World has done. The player has no skin in the game and can  make the community seem unfriendly and immature.  If a player can just create a new account after getting banned or suspended, they just return and continue their shenanigans.

2. It seems that every MMO that I have played that has gone F2P suddenly drops content creation and moves more towards making items they can sell in game.  Sure some of the games that have gone F2P are making more money, but at what cost?  The cost seems to be long content droughts.

3. Some MMOs that have gone F2P are so limited that they are no fun. A good example would be The Old Republic. If you happened to be one of the folks that pre-ordered the Collector’s edition they game you a few in game tokens to buy a few things. So you need to decide, hey do I want to Hide my Headgear, keep my surname.. etc.  They did not give enough tokens to make the game at least a little easier to stomach the loss of  pre-purchase

 

 

 

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

2/25/13 12:00:57 PM#59
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by ElectricWizard
Originally posted by DamonVile
Bad games are bad games it doesn't matter how their payment set up works. Statments like " the death of gaming " are just for the drama queens out there.

exactly this.

I'll second that.

I'll third this one just for impact.

I imagine the people who write things like this are also prepping for the "Zombie Apocalypse".

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1288

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

2/25/13 12:01:09 PM#60


Originally posted by nottuned
free to play crowd needs to be cut from mmo's like a bad cancer. if you an call them mmo's, these games play like a single player game on easy mode with  a chat room. cut them and the tears loose, dont look back

Concise, clear, unappologetic, true. Bravo.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

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