Originally posted by tlear

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

So, people only kill other solo players if they have stealth? Or, people only play solo if they have stealth??? Really?

Full groups or duo's who are not a stealth class wont kill someone trying to solo in a pvp based MMO ? Stealth does not "destroy the ability for any other class to solo". The game being an MMO with lots of people grouping and, desinged for guilds and, server against server destroys the precious ability to solo you care so much for- NOT stealth.

Originally posted by cd3925

Originally posted by Kreedz

Perma-stealth Mechanics AKA Invisibility is a cop-out, for cop-out players, and players who like this mechanic usually belong to the same group of players who believe in Open World PvP which allows them to gank lowbies or harass people within 'safe' zones such as cities or quest hubs.

I have always detested this mechanic, as it doesnt involve skill, and allows players to escape when they find themselves outmatched.

 

This is just simply not true. It is in no way a cop-out and the class does take skill. Its comments like this that make me laugh IRL.

You know how many times I was ganked in DAoC frontiers trying to lvl by classes and groups that were not stealthers? More than I was by stealthers. Given the chance most will kill the enemy when they see them. You know how many RP's you get for killing lowbies? Very very little. Is it worth it to camp lowbies? NO.

Have you even played the class? Was it just too easy for you?.... How is it that it takes no skill? Maybe you could give me some tips.

 

I'm sorry, but any class design which allows players to effectively get the opening strike on an unaware target, which is usually quite a devestating attack which leaves the victim severely injured or debilitated, in no way involves any meaningful strategy that requires skill.

You can argue the matter any which way you please, but the fact will always remain that stealth classes almost always have the advantage in a 1 v 1 fight, and in some cases even 1 v 2.

Rather than me having to prove they dont require skill, I'd like you to give me examples of where stealth does require skill, outside of approaching an already aware target(s).

Originally posted by Kreedz

Originally posted by cd3925

Originally posted by Kreedz

Perma-stealth Mechanics AKA Invisibility is a cop-out, for cop-out players, and players who like this mechanic usually belong to the same group of players who believe in Open World PvP which allows them to gank lowbies or harass people within 'safe' zones such as cities or quest hubs.

I have always detested this mechanic, as it doesnt involve skill, and allows players to escape when they find themselves outmatched.

 

This is just simply not true. It is in no way a cop-out and the class does take skill. Its comments like this that make me laugh IRL.

You know how many times I was ganked in DAoC frontiers trying to lvl by classes and groups that were not stealthers? More than I was by stealthers. Given the chance most will kill the enemy when they see them. You know how many RP's you get for killing lowbies? Very very little. Is it worth it to camp lowbies? NO.

Have you even played the class? Was it just too easy for you?.... How is it that it takes no skill? Maybe you could give me some tips.

 

I'm sorry, but any class design which allows players to effectively get the opening strike on an unaware target, which is usually quite a devestating attack which leaves the victim severely injured or debilitated, in no way involves any meaningful strategy that requires skill.

You can argue the matter any which way you please, but the fact will always remain that stealth classes almost always have the advantage in a 1 v 1 fight, and in some cases even 1 v 2.

Rather than me having to prove they dont require skill, I'd like you to give me examples of where stealth does require skill, outside of approaching an already aware target(s).

Yes, stealthers have the advantage of surprise in 1 on 1 fights.  Which they need.  Just as you need magic if your a mage or armor if you are a tank.

You ever dueled a stealther?  Well I dueled a lot with my high RR inf and normally if I just dueled someone of the same RR it wouldnt end well even if i was invisible and they knew I was coming. 

Well anyways, I think I posted into original post not to say things like, you got no skills, or this sucks, its useless because its doesnt help anything.  Also you provide no examples at all to why you feel this say except, well stealthers have the element of surprise which again, you want taken away.  Why?  Because you want to win.

You fall into the category of the rage/quit types that helped drive this gaming genre into the horrid place that it is in right now.  Why?  Because no one can be allowed to beat you,and if some other class can do something you can't, and it helps them win, well we just can't have that can we, so lets water it down to the point where you can have an assured victory. (Cue carebear brigade spamming tickets requesting nerfs to all classes that happen to beat them.)

Tanks have Ignore pain and plate mail.  Mages have AE.  Can you explain why these classes have these skills and stealthers don't?  How come you can hit me from so far away with a devasting spell that takes out a huge chunk of my health before I et near you?  How come you can AE an entire field and kill everyone that is near you?  Please explain to me how this requires skills.  (Well if you didnt notice I'm just using your weak logic and arguements on you as well.)

Also get off this invisibility term you throw around.  If you get close to someone who is stealthed, you can see them.  Can you please explain to me how is this invisiblity?  Other stealthers can see you, vamps can see you as well.  So how is this being invisible?  It's called stealth for a reason.  I could say magic isnt called magic, its called "unbelievable get real how can some idiot have uber super powers" power.  Is that an accurate representation of magic?  No, so get your stuff straight when you talk about stealthers.

Lastly don't answer a question with a question.  He asked you for some examples, and your reply is "no you give ME examples".  Very clever indeed. (did anyone ever tell you that you are clever?)

I played DAOC up until TOA and then the grind just became too much, before that everything was great. Got to 50 and then a steady diet of RvR for a few weeks and I had all the necassary RA's to be competitive on my Troll shaman.

I agree with the OP in that stealth worked just fine at this point in the game, I could travel solo and as long as I paid attention and ran in a somewhat chaotic pattern I could avoid stealthers or often cause them to miss their initial strike and then the advantage was mine as I was a decent kiter.

I am not saying DAOC was completely balanced, no game is or has been, but  if you knew your class even solo battles were competitive. Group battles were best though.

Originally posted by Pest138

I played DAOC up until TOA and then the grind just became too much, before that everything was great. Got to 50 and then a steady diet of RvR for a few weeks and I had all the necassary RA's to be competitive on my Troll shaman.

 

I agree with the OP in that stealth worked just fine at this point in the game, I could travel solo and as long as I paid attention and ran in a somewhat chaotic pattern I could avoid stealthers or often cause them to miss their initial strike and then the advantage was mine as I was a decent kiter.

 

I am not saying DAOC was completely balanced, no game is or has been, but  if you knew your class even solo battles were competitive. Group battles were best though.

Hi pest, thanks for the post.  Your post basicaly nullifies the post i was quoting above yours and in a much shorter fashion.  Well done sir.

Originally posted by cd3925

Originally posted by tlear

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

So, people only kill other solo players if they have stealth? Or, people only play solo if they have stealth??? Really?

Full groups or duo's who are not a stealth class wont kill someone trying to solo in a pvp based MMO ? Stealth does not "destroy the ability for any other class to solo". The game being an MMO with lots of people grouping and, desinged for guilds and, server against server destroys the precious ability to solo you care so much for- NOT stealth.

 

Assymetry of information.. /facepalm

If you are not stealthed and solo. Chance of you spotting a group and group spoting you lets say 50%/50 for stealther it is 100%/0%. Where normal soloer has a chance to be spotted and ganked for stealther this chance is incredibly small DUH.

In addition to that if you are going solo as a non-stealther you tend to look for nice ambush positions where you have a very good view of the are without being seen(you know REAL stealth). Fromt this position you can spot any non-stealth group or zerg.. but stealther can waltch in the middle of the open field and be unseen(skill required=0).

You can pick the fights you know you can win and just skip the rest, this does change where certain areas are flooded with stealthers but that is a point by which game is broken completely.

It is not matter of about you or me it is matter of people WILL solo if pvp/rvr is the only thing(+crafting) to do this will happen. Because you only have an hour to play, or because they got a hangover and really do not want to talk to anyone or just because.. if invisibility is in the game then very soon you gona see a herd of stealth alts built specifically for that purpose.

I played a Ranger dang near exclusively from beta to ToA and was the second highest RR Ranger on Percival until I quit (DAMN YOU RAAD!)  I freely admit that Stealth became problematic in DAoC and a similar system will be equally problematic in CU.  But some good points have been brought up in this thread.

-Stealth, itself, was rarely what made Stealthers appear to be OPd.  Recall that Steatlhers were generally the first to use buffbots.  Stealthers took GREAT advantage of poor game play and strategy by their targets.  When buffbots became more prevalent and players began to learn more about the mechanics of the game, Stealthers became less of a problem.

-I think it's unfair to claim that Stealthers made solo play impossible.  For quite some time, the most powerful solo'ers were casters... and they had NOTHING to fear from Stealthers.

-Also recall that Stealthers traded nearly all utility in large scale battles for their Stealth in DAoCastalot.

I would be fine with a much tamer version of Stealth.  I would personally like to see Stealth more for scouting and movement, less for opening strike and assassination.  And, more than anything, I would hope that traditional Stealth classes (like Archers and Rogue-types) would have a greater role in large scale battles.

My guess is that stealth will be minimal in CU.  I would hope that it would be better than WAR and GW2, but not what it was in DAoC... somewhere in between those two options.

Originally posted by Tumblebutz

I played a Ranger dang near exclusively from beta to ToA and was the second highest RR Ranger on Percival until I quit (DAMN YOU RAAD!)  I freely admit that Stealth became problematic in DAoC and a similar system will be equally problematic in CU.  But some good points have been brought up in this thread.

**snip**

I would be fine with a much tamer version of Stealth.  I would personally like to see Stealth more for scouting and movement, less for opening strike and assassination.  And, more than anything, I would hope that traditional Stealth classes (like Archers and Rogue-types) would have a greater role in large scale battles.

My guess is that stealth will be minimal in CU.  I would hope that it would be better than WAR and GW2, but not what it was in DAoC... somewhere in between those two options.

This ^

I know people love stealth, but if you take a good honest look at it, you'd see that it is a horribly broken mechanic. It goes beyond the nearly flawless protection of being perma-invis and into a realm of balance where developers are forced to tie a classes abilities to the stealth mechanic in an attempt to offer a trade-off. The end result is an impossible situation where the stealth class is either way too power (basically can't lose a fight unless the user seriously screws up) or it ends up completely gimping the class, and they can't do anything without stealth.

Personally I'm not a big fan of stealth in any game. And I definitely hate permanent stealth. It should have some sort of trade-off; (either a short duration, drains energy, not perfectly invisible, no damage boost, etc.) and leave the rest of the class to function normally without it. I'd even be okay with a stealth mechanic which was stationary, allowing the user to hide in certain parts of the map for ambushes / infiltration purposes. I've had a lot of fun w/ stealth classes in the past, but I'm not going to pretend like they didn't all feel painfully easy. Ganking newbs is only fun for so long when there is next to nothing they can really do to harm you. In almost every game with stealth (DAoC included), if you get caught in a bad situation, you also have escape skills to simply vanish and try again later. There's simply no good way to balance a class like that against others.

Originally posted by tlear

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

Um you are bad if a steather can destroy your ability to solo, and if it can destroy the abbility of other classes to solo the game is ill-developed. Steathers can make you have to be more aware while you solo, and make it more difficult in many ways to solo, but in no way does a steather make it impossible or destroy the ability to solo in a game as a non-steather. Your own steath destroyed solo play for other classes is pretty shallow. 

To me most steath atleast in-combat steath should be timed, or that while in combat if you are steathed there is a chance of you being detected by players in the area. I could understand having perma-steath while outside of combat, or outside a certain distance of other players in combat, as a method of it having several uses from patrol or recon'ing as well as allowing for it to be used for dealing with a unaware lone healers too on the outside of groups. The time you can remain in steath undetected while in combat could be based on how close or how many targets are within a certain range, as wel as that even the terrian your stealther is in (day, night, open field, forests, and such.). I honestly think that perma-steath constantly would be a bad idea as it does in ways simplify playing a stealther, as you no longer have to keep track of your timer making it much easier to choose your fights an leads to less stress on ability choices (like knowing you have only afew seconds before poping out an have to choose which opener to use.).

Originally posted by tlear

Originally posted by cd3925

Originally posted by tlear

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

So, people only kill other solo players if they have stealth? Or, people only play solo if they have stealth??? Really?

Full groups or duo's who are not a stealth class wont kill someone trying to solo in a pvp based MMO ? Stealth does not "destroy the ability for any other class to solo". The game being an MMO with lots of people grouping and, desinged for guilds and, server against server destroys the precious ability to solo you care so much for- NOT stealth.

 

Assymetry of information.. /facepalm

 

If you are not stealthed and solo. Chance of you spotting a group and group spoting you lets say 50%/50 for stealther it is 100%/0%. Where normal soloer has a chance to be spotted and ganked for stealther this chance is incredibly small DUH.

In addition to that if you are going solo as a non-stealther you tend to look for nice ambush positions where you have a very good view of the are without being seen(you know REAL stealth). Fromt this position you can spot any non-stealth group or zerg.. but stealther can waltch in the middle of the open field and be unseen(skill required=0).

You can pick the fights you know you can win and just skip the rest, this does change where certain areas are flooded with stealthers but that is a point by which game is broken completely.

 

It is not matter of about you or me it is matter of people WILL solo if pvp/rvr is the only thing(+crafting) to do this will happen. Because you only have an hour to play, or because they got a hangover and really do not want to talk to anyone or just because.. if invisibility is in the game then very soon you gona see a herd of stealth alts built specifically for that purpose.

I understand your points. I would agree, being stealthed and walking in a wide open field does not take skill- but the fight does. Setting yourself in a good position for success does take equal skill.  And this is one of the reasons why there was not the endless alt parade of stealthers you are concerned about. People had stealth alts and most were not good at it or capable of doing much and, were easy to kill.

The engaement of the fight does take skill regardless of the element of surprise. Thus not making it a mechanic that will destroy other solo classes- if thats what they want to try to do. Stealth does make it easier to get around, but that is it.

If you want it easier for non-stealth classes to move around then ask MJ to remove the Big-giant-im-right-here-tag-over-my-head. make it so you have to hover over the class or target them to see Rank & name.

Originally posted by cronius77
if this game has stealth classes make it in like DAOC with perma stealth and 9 second stuns like infiltrators or left axe shadowblades you can keep it I wont touch it. I played a infiltrator to realm rank 7 and I never lost a 1 on 1 if I hit dragonfang no matter the class or realm rank. Thats called a I win button and I have no interest at all in that sort of gaming again. Even in Warhammer a high renoun rank witchunter was way over the top pistol whip and in less than 3 seconds before you got back up you were dead even shield tanks. That mess was a piss poor design decision sorry but its the truth.

Yeah, I agree here.  But it wasn't STEALTH that made the classes overpowered.  You even said it was Dragonfang and Pistol Whip.  Those are CC issues.  When you combine stealth with any of the following:

-ridiculous CC

-huge opening strikes from Stealth

-buffbots

-easy escape mechanisms

-a host of other traits...

you have a real balancing problem.  And, moreover, you have a huge community whine problem.

The flipside is: when you DON'T combine Stealth with some other advantage, it's just useless.  Therein lies the problem.  While I agree that you don't NEED stealth to scout and to recon, Stealth can be designed around scouting and recon as a game mechanic instead of around combat.  I can't imagine anyone would find this objectionable.

I think its quite typical of the people who are pro-stealth to take such a childish stance of "You are bad" or "Nah uh!" when it comes to counter arguements.

Fits the Stereotype perfectly, doesn't it?

Originally posted by Tumblebutz

Originally posted by cronius77
if this game has stealth classes make it in like DAOC with perma stealth and 9 second stuns like infiltrators or left axe shadowblades you can keep it I wont touch it. I played a infiltrator to realm rank 7 and I never lost a 1 on 1 if I hit dragonfang no matter the class or realm rank. Thats called a I win button and I have no interest at all in that sort of gaming again. Even in Warhammer a high renoun rank witchunter was way over the top pistol whip and in less than 3 seconds before you got back up you were dead even shield tanks. That mess was a piss poor design decision sorry but its the truth.

Yeah, I agree here.  But it wasn't STEALTH that made the classes overpowered.  You even said it was Dragonfang and Pistol Whip.  Those are CC issues.  When you combine stealth with any of the following:

-ridiculous CC

-huge opening strikes from Stealth

-buffbots

-easy escape mechanisms

-a host of other traits...

you have a real balancing problem.  And, moreover, you have a huge community whine problem.

The flipside is: when you DON'T combine Stealth with some other advantage, it's just useless.  Therein lies the problem.  While I agree that you don't NEED stealth to scout and to recon, Stealth can be designed around scouting and recon as a game mechanic instead of around combat.  I can't imagine anyone would find this objectionable.

Tumble, thanks sir.  I also made this point earlier in the thread.  It isn't the stealth killing everyone.  Its the other styles/skills that are there.  This also summarizes this entire thread. 

-Non-timed stealth is a core mechanice for a stealther BUT

-buff bots, sick CC, etc make the class seem OP, and what do people attack when that happens?  They attack the stealth mechanic, and not the buff bot problem, or the CC etc.  But, these things can be countered, by removing buff bots like they did on the classic server (buff range), and to also cut the stun duration.  Of course by this time, most people are already angry and will have it in their mind non-timed stealth = evil and OP.

So thanks again Tumble.  I made this thread to get people talking about why they like/dont like stealth and why we should keep it.  It's good to get into the mentality behind why people don't like it.  In the end its not the stealth they don't like, its the OP skills/styles that come after that kill them that they dont like.

Originally posted by cronius77
if this game has stealth classes make it in like DAOC with perma stealth and 9 second stuns like infiltrators or left axe shadowblades you can keep it I wont touch it. I played a infiltrator to realm rank 7 and I never lost a 1 on 1 if I hit dragonfang no matter the class or realm rank. Thats called a I win button and I have no interest at all in that sort of gaming again. Even in Warhammer a high renoun rank witchunter was way over the top pistol whip and in less than 3 seconds before you got back up you were dead even shield tanks. That mess was a piss poor design decision sorry but its the truth.

As Tumble pointed out Stealth is not an I-win button.  I've never stealthed someone to death in any game.  So stealth in and of itself is not an I-win.  You could say for example, Dragonfang is an I-win button.  But this thread isn't about Dragonfang, so don't lump it in with stealth.  So, what I'm trying to say is, your point is invalid for this thread.  Now if we were having a thread about, ok should stealthers get stun, then your point would be valid.  And yes i also mentioned Left Axe as a reason why people have in their mind stealthers are OP.  It took years for them to nerf Left Axe.  But again, if you look at core mechanics, you will see, Left Axe or Dragon fang, are not a core mechanice for stealthers. Non-timed stealth is a core mechanic that should be kept in this form.  So when you think about stealthers for CU, dont think about non-timed stealth + buffs bots, dragon fang, or left axe, or uber dots + sick evades, + etc etc.  This is just about stealth so don't say, I could pwn everyone in a fight etc etc.  Your stealth wasnt killing them.  You weren't spamming stealth on people to kill them all.  It was your buffbot or dragon fang, or left axe, or PA that was killing them easily.

Though we are here to explain this issue, so I don't mind explaining it out.

Originally posted by tlear
You do not need stealth for patrolling or scouting. If game has no stealth people will still scout and patrol anyway but now they wil actually be able to spot other side scout/spatrols and fight them.

No you do not need steath for scouting, or patroling, but steathers can fill that bracket, as well  as be used for such patrols or recon like into cities or bases that are heavily guarded an so a non-stealthed scout or partroler would be hard pressed to get worthwhile info on that area. Also camo/steath has been used for quite a long time even in rl for reconing for info in high-security areas. Steath could also be more like you take on the look of being an ally, such as being un-targetable by the other side till you make an action against them or are discovered in some fasion. 

Also have both steather an non-stealther recon oriented classes, with them playing in ways a cat and mouse game, of both the non-steather recon having methods of locating/identifing steathers would add more to the game. Such as having hunter or even ranger (pet-using huters) that would have various stealth detection options/utilities in thier skill-set. 

Originally posted by Thupli
In the spirit of rock paper scissors, if we can't have a predator style skill based stealth, then I think it would be logical to have a hard counter class (scout) that can see them at 50% transparency, but no mini map tracking, and no tab-to targeting, but make them clickable, like critters in wow.  Make them use their eyes.  Mj is all about counters, and this would provide a non op counter.

I like this idea. A scout can snipe assasins. So non-stealth has to watch out for stealthers and stealther have to watch out for archers.

As a former infi I would say that trade off would be fair.

50% transparency could be the max at scout (archer) progression in CU.

For one, the good news is that if someone wants something completely different from what made DAoC a very fun game for a lot of folks - you can go and get your own kickstarter and team going.  Barring that, Mr. Jacobs will and has already dealt with a plethora of folks who (good intentioned) have their ideas as to how he should construct his game.

Common sense should kick in at this point and remind the audience that it seems folks are looking and flocking at and toward this title because of its relationship to Dark Age of Camelot.  Therefore, simply applying some Occom's Razor level of sense would dictate that the simplest choice in the matter of decision making for class construction in CU - would be to make a valid attempt at retaining a lot of what we did enjoy with Dark Age of Camelot.

Simple.

Stealth was its own option RvR game - and there were mechanics that affected that particular game as well.  Let's hope that Mr. Jacobs considers traditional DAoC stealth as a viable option for rogue lovers who have to play WoW to get any sense of rogue these days.