Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear.

If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment.

That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.

[mod edit]

Yes you aim, but not like real people.  You are doing it in third person for a start, think about how you 'aim' a sword and try again.  Also "free form targetting" and "action combat" are more visceral, but not necessarily better.  Particularly not better if you have a much higher lag than the average North American player.

I also find it interesting the way this argument has evolved.  There was a time when people who used a mouse or gamepad in an MMORPG were ridiculed as "cow clickers", now it is those that use all of the keys on the keyboard who are getting ridiculed. "Tab kiddies" is one of the more polite terms I have seen.

[mod edit]

Again, what is this skill you keep referencing? I have said before and I will say it again - I am a gamer that is good at both FPS type combat games and tab targeting games. Neither really involves skill. These are video games we are talking about, have you forgotten that?

It is definitely laughable (in my opinion) that you can say action based games require more skill (again I am confused on what this mysterious skill is) than tab targeting games. So you are telling me that your team of 8 random FPS players would be able to take on a team of 8 experienced Dark Age of Camelot players in RvR right now and even have a chance of winning? You sir, are mistaken, there is quite the learning curve to tab targeting games and a huge amount of strategic and tactical decision making (especially in Dark Age of Camelot). In fact, I daresay that experienced Dark Age of Camelot players would have a much easier time defeating an experienced FPS team than vice versa.

Anyhow, we can go at this particular issue all day but I rather just break it down for you: these are different types of games that involve different skills (I'm laughing as I type this) and comparing them (as you continue to do) is plain idiocy. But, please continue believing that your game of choice has some kind of amazing skill-curve compared to other genres. Maybe you can even make it to the Olympics.

Originally posted by Killsmallchi

Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear.

If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment.

That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.

What does loot have to do with tab targeting being more or less skillful?  You can have completely cosmetic gear in tab targeted games the same as you can have stat enhancing gear in fps "action" combat.  These aren't mutually exclusive things.

The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player". Tab-targeting systems require less twitch skill than a free-targeting system; I don't think anyone argues against that. What has made tab-target systems more skill based are the relationships between the skills and understanding how everything interacts. That isn't a skill level associated with the targeting system. It is a skill level associated with comprehending game mechanics. Introduce complex ability relationships to a free-targeting system and you would have one of the most daunting and demanding combat systems to date, and those gamers who are able to grasp mechanics as well as perform in a twitch based system would beat out your jump jump kiddies and /face /stick dinosaurs. If CoD bunny-hoppers are your concern, mitigate against that by adding a mechanic such as stamina and then penalize the gamer through that mechanic when they engage in something you want to discourage, such as repetitious jumping. If the truth is that you don’t like free targeting because you struggle with it, just say so. We’ve all lost to a 10-yr old in Halo at some point haha. My personal desire is for /face /stick to go away. Movement and positioning in pvp based games can be a lot of fun, and they introduce another dynamic to the combat experience. So while I sympathize with those of us who struggle in a faster paced combat environment, in the interest of the game, I must cast my vote for a more free-targeting based system.

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by Killsmallchi

Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear.

If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment.

That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.

What does loot have to do with tab targeting being more or less skillful?  You can have completely cosmetic gear in tab targeted games the same as you can have stat enhancing gear in fps "action" combat.  These aren't mutually exclusive things.

Yea, I think the best argument for tab-targeting is, with free form targeting, you lag, you die... period.  It alsmost makes the game "Pay To Win", cuz while you're not actually giving your money to the devs themsevles, or the gaming company, you do have to pay a shit-load to get like, an Alienware-level machine, and the top-tier high-speed internet. lol

Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad

The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".

That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.

And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...

The more level playing field is good in tab based games anyway...its boring when nobody can touch your stats...

Originally posted by Qallidexz

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by Killsmallchi

Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear.

If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment.

That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.

What does loot have to do with tab targeting being more or less skillful?  You can have completely cosmetic gear in tab targeted games the same as you can have stat enhancing gear in fps "action" combat.  These aren't mutually exclusive things.

 

Yea, I think the best argument for tab-targeting is, with free form targeting, you lag, you die... period.  It alsmost makes the game "Pay To Win", cuz while you're not actually giving your money to the devs themsevles, or the gaming company, you do have to pay a shit-load to get like, an Alienware-level machine, and the top-tier high-speed internet. lol

Or if you live somewhere other than North America with a North American server:  you always lag, you always die. Please dont say something stupid like "play on an Australian Server"  or "get a better connection".  There are very few Australian servers at all and connections that would put you within 100ms of someone in the US on a US server are impossible. You would be lucky to be consistently within 200ms of a US connection to a US server.

I come from a hard core dualing background in Quake and UT - I just cant see the point of aiming in MMO's. MMO's are played across continents with latency in the ranges of 250ms so they make things move really slow an increase their hit boxes etc to compensate for that latency. Makes the point of aiming redundant so including it so it FEELS like you're playing an FPS is stupid imho.

First off woah!  If you were using TAB key for your targetting in DAoC, you were horrible.  I couldn't even begin to imagine how bad you were in RVR if you were cycling through targets using tab.

Some people are trying to suggest that tab targetting and target lock-on are the same thing.  They are in fact not the same thing.  One is a particular way to select targets while the other is like aiming with a rpg vs guided missle.  They are not comparable.

OK, now on to the discussion I think the OP meant to start.  Skill-shot abilities are ofcourse harder because they is a lot of guessing.  However, lock-on targetting allows for greater chains of skills and better 1v1 combat.  I think that if a game combined both of these, it would be on the way to an excellent game.

For example, if fireballs became skill shots in DAoC, most people wouldn't use them.  With the simplicity removed, players would just make a different build.  However, if you rewarded players for using a skill shot ability by adding more damage and a small AoE, players would be more tempted.  Risk vs Reward would be applied.

P.S.  If you're really begging for a "oh please find the nearest enemy target" button, you shouldn't even mention that you played DAoC ever again.  Go hang out with these guys.

---

Originally posted by craftseeker

---

Originally posted by Qallidexz

---

Originally posted by niceguy3978

---

Originally posted by Killsmallchi

---

Originally posted by Canan I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean? I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

---

Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear. If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment. That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.

---

What does loot have to do with tab targeting being more or less skillful?  You can have completely cosmetic gear in tab targeted games the same as you can have stat enhancing gear in fps "action" combat.  These aren't mutually exclusive things.

---

  Yea, I think the best argument for tab-targeting is, with free form targeting, you lag, you die... period.  It alsmost makes the game "Pay To Win", cuz while you're not actually giving your money to the devs themsevles, or the gaming company, you do have to pay a shit-load to get like, an Alienware-level machine, and the top-tier high-speed internet. lol

---

Or if you live somewhere other than North America with a North American server:  you always lag, you always die. Please dont say something stupid like "play on an Australian Server"  or "get a better connection".  There are very few Australian servers at all and connections that would put you within 100ms of someone in the US on a US server are impossible. You would be lucky to be consistently within 200ms of a US connection to a US server.

---

under 150ms is impossible, its 150ms from sydney to san jose alone. you might get better if you were hooked into the sydney backbone directly maybe.

Originally posted by Nephelai

I come from a hard core dualing background in Quake and UT - I just cant see the point of aiming in MMO's. MMO's are played across continents with latency in the ranges of 250ms so they make things move really slow an increase their hit boxes etc to compensate for that latency. Makes the point of aiming redundant so including it so it FEELS like you're playing an FPS is stupid imho.

Play quake without crosshairs and  hover 20 feet above your player.

Or stand 10 feet back from your monitor.

Originally posted by skyexile

 

---

Originally posted by craftseeker

---

Originally posted by Qallidexz

---

Originally posted by niceguy3978

---

Originally posted by Killsmallchi

---

Originally posted by Canan I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean? I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

---

Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear. If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment. That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.

---

What does loot have to do with tab targeting being more or less skillful?  You can have completely cosmetic gear in tab targeted games the same as you can have stat enhancing gear in fps "action" combat.  These aren't mutually exclusive things.

---

  Yea, I think the best argument for tab-targeting is, with free form targeting, you lag, you die... period.  It alsmost makes the game "Pay To Win", cuz while you're not actually giving your money to the devs themsevles, or the gaming company, you do have to pay a shit-load to get like, an Alienware-level machine, and the top-tier high-speed internet. lol

---

Or if you live somewhere other than North America with a North American server:  you always lag, you always die. Please dont say something stupid like "play on an Australian Server"  or "get a better connection".  There are very few Australian servers at all and connections that would put you within 100ms of someone in the US on a US server are impossible. You would be lucky to be consistently within 200ms of a US connection to a US server.

---

 

under 150ms is impossible, its 150ms from sydney to san jose alone. you might get better if you were hooked into the sydney backbone directly maybe.

Pretty much but I have seen claims in the past of pings from Sydney to San Jose around 140ms, not substantiated mind you.  Might happen in very special circumstances like a direct connect. But for the consumer and business markets 180 plus is the limit.

Originally posted by SiempreLaVerdad

The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player". Tab-targeting systems require less twitch skill than a free-targeting system; I don't think anyone argues against that. What has made tab-target systems more skill based are the relationships between the skills and understanding how everything interacts. That isn't a skill level associated with the targeting system. It is a skill level associated with comprehending game mechanics. Introduce complex ability relationships to a free-targeting system and you would have one of the most daunting and demanding combat systems to date, and those gamers who are able to grasp mechanics as well as perform in a twitch based system would beat out your jump jump kiddies and /face /stick dinosaurs. If CoD bunny-hoppers are your concern, mitigate against that by adding a mechanic such as stamina and then penalize the gamer through that mechanic when they engage in something you want to discourage, such as repetitious jumping. If the truth is that you don’t like free targeting because you struggle with it, just say so. We’ve all lost to a 10-yr old in Halo at some point haha. My personal desire is for /face /stick to go away. Movement and positioning in pvp based games can be a lot of fun, and they introduce another dynamic to the combat experience. So while I sympathize with those of us who struggle in a faster paced combat environment, in the interest of the game, I must cast my vote for a more free-targeting based system.

I really like most of your post.  But, dang, its hard to read.

However, the reason you have /face is because you don't have a radar that in are in most FPS.

If you think positioning isn't important in lock-on target, then you never played a mid healer or any ranged class for that matter.  There is a constant battle between being effective, overextending, and trying not to be an obvious target.

Originally posted by Canan
Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.

same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.

What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.  

It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay. 

Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Stiler

Here is a quick youtube video showing the combat somewhat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbcZvGSgVk

I want to see combat that doesn't ignore terrain features.

(He swings his sword right through pillars, several times (0:30) in that video. And the blood-splatter's gotta go, thought Conan killed that idea for good.)

Besides the apparent 100% decapitation success rate.

-The "this takes skill and that doesn't" comments add nothing to the discussion.  Nor do the comments accusing any players of being "kiddies."  Come on, this isn't a thread about Stealth!

-"Tab targetting" doesn't refer to the literal use of Tab to acquire a target, but rather to the selection of a target (by tab or click) and the automatic aim of a skill or ability at that target.  As opposed to aiming a skill or ability at an area or in a direction which the intended target may or may not inhabit.  At least that's the way I understand it... am I wrong?

-I don't believe either system requires more or less skill, nor do I believe one system is inheirantly better than the other.  I would prefer a tab-target component at the least because it allows for greater complexity and sophistication of skills and abilites including combinations and chains. 

-Free form targetting restricts the level of complexity in that it makes it much easier to miss landing a skill or ability, thus destroying the opportunity to land any type of combination or chain.  This will make necessary the more spammable nature of skills and, quite probably, a reduced repertoire of skills and abilities.

-Latency will ALWAYS be a huge issue in PvP.  Mitigating its effect is paramount to a successful game.  Tab-targetting has a greater ability to mitigate the effects of latency, afaik.

-I'm not opposed to a kind of hybrid system.  In actuality, DAoC had a hybrid system in that some skills were "ground target" spells and thus mimicked a "free form" targeting system, in a sense.  I hate to make this comparison, but think of LoL... it uses a kind of hybrid system, albeit in a different type of play where LoS issues are not as prevalent.

Originally posted by Canan
I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

It means nothing. I've always been amazed that people manage to use the phrase 'skill-based' and MMO in the same sentence without laughing.