Well. since MMORPG penetrated the popular state on games, more and more people with different and actual "inside the box" mind are coming.

I don't find action based combat innovative.... tab targeting came after it and it's in some way, more innovative and different way to see a combat.

We should think that each thing is a different thing and we should separate both, and not think one is better then another.

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Originally posted by rogue187
people scream and cry for innovation what they really want as "innovation" is SWG, DAOC days...i don't get it...adapt or die i say

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I would say we want those old ideas innovated with modern tech. You see back then they were ahead of their time and we had many issues as a result. Unfortunately we have been stuck with companies trying to innovate and produce the perfect theme park. Now its time to take the best of the old, apply what has been learned from it, use modern tech, and make it better than before.

Originally posted by Killsmallchi
I honestly think it is just bad players that ask for tab targetting. I just keep reading,'spells need tab target' and 'I cant hit things without tab target' Seriously learn to not be terrible. Tab targetting is old and based on lacking technology. If they tab target all it will show is that this is another sub par game. If you can not aim, go play solitaire.

On the contrary, one can argue if you want to aim go play a FPS game.  A lot of people think action combat is an incredible innovation and allows tremendous scale over "skill > button masher" concept, but it reality it has nothing to do with this at all.  

I'd love to know how many people that voice opinions on system mechanics actually understand anything about programming, network infrastructure, or game design itself.  There's a plethora of reasons against action combat systems in truly mass combat games; it's fine in single player and a several group worth of active players, but if you're pushing one hundred plus players all utilizing combat spell effects, aiming would literally become hell due to network infrastructure and personal computer drawbacks for some users.

I'm not sure what gaming background you come from, but the whole "learn to not be terrible" and "L2P" is a terrible mentality.  That goes for several of the other users that back up action target systems as their primirary reason as to why it should be implemented.  This post shouldn't be referenced as an anti-action based system, but if you're going to suggested it, at least understand why it works and where it fails miserably.

Originally posted by Killsmallchi
I honestly think it is just bad players that ask for tab targetting. I just keep reading,'spells need tab target' and 'I cant hit things without tab target' Seriously learn to not be terrible. Tab targetting is old and based on lacking technology. If they tab target all it will show is that this is another sub par game. If you can not aim, go play solitaire.

I will never understand this argument of "being good" at aiming. I am quite good at FPS games and aiming and I find it honestly simple. I see no skill in trying to target your enemy and attack...is that really considered a skill? And if one actually does consider that a skill how does it lessen the "skill" of tab targeting games? There is plenty of strategic and tactical decision making that is involved in the "skill" of tab targeting games which separates a good player from a novice.

To sum it up - these are two different games both which involve different thinking and maneuvering techniques to excel. Are these necessarily skills? I would argue not. However, if we are going to label them as skills, their differences and setting make them incomparable in my opinion.

Cheers~

Originally posted by Qallidexz

My fellow DAoC warriors! So many games nowadays are moving towards the "free-form" targetting system (not to be confused with real-time combat, which is a different thing, and you can have both tab-target and real time), but I remember the glory days, where tab-targetting was all there is. Some of the newer MMO'ers tend to get it into their heads that no tab-targetting is somehow "better", because it takes more "skill". Well, running through people, jumping around them, strafing side to side, all that is just an annoyance, as the true MMO fans know, those who played DAoC, real skill comes from knowing what to do, and when to do it (spell-wise, and ability-wise) not from trying to run through your opponent (hense the /face, and /stick commands had to be implemented).

Free-form targetting does not make for fun combat, tab-targetting makes for fun combat, but without tab-targetting, it's just little kids who are used to playing Call of Duty, jumping around their opponents, and over their heads, to gain an advantage, because they're not smart enough to figure out which spells they need to cast and when, or capable of figuring out what abilities to use at the right times, so they just jump around a lot. Let's avoid this in CU, and get back to the good ole' days, you with me?

actually i'd prefer the "tab" thingie JUST for highlighting.

dont make moves dependant on who you targetet. let your sword hit what it hits!

Originally posted by Thane

 

actually i'd prefer the "tab" thingie JUST for highlighting.

dont make moves dependant on who you targetet. let your sword hit what it hits!

Age of Conan tried that, people didn't like getting killed by the 2-handed sword wielding Herald of Xotli standing beside them.

You guys are all missing the central point.  What most players want (certainly the posters in this thread) is a high level of complexity in combat.  The battle between" tab targetting" and "free form targetting" is really a debate about where that complexity lies.  Free form targetting creates a level of complexity in the targetting, itself... this necessarily removes complexity from the skills and abilities which you are attempting to land.

On the other hand, tab-targetting removes the complexity from the targetting system and allows for a far more complex and sophisticated system of abilities and skills.

There is a difference between "complex" and "compicated."  I think free-form targetting makes combat complicated without adding any real complexity.  I want a complex system, not a complicated system... just my opinion.

Originally posted by Tumblebutz

You guys are all missing the central point.  What most players want (certainly the posters in this thread) is a high level of complexity in combat.  The battle between" tab targetting" and "free form targetting" is really a debate about where that complexity lies.  Free form targetting creates a level of complexity in the targetting, itself... this necessarily removes complexity from the skills and abilities which you are attempting to land.

On the other hand, tab-targetting removes the complexity from the targetting system and allows for a far more complex and sophisticated system of abilities and skills.

There is a difference between "complex" and "compicated."  I think free-form targetting makes combat complicated without adding any real complexity.  I want a complex system, not a complicated system... just my opinion.

I think you nailed it here, while the free-form targeting people seem to think that that targeting model takes "skill", and people who don't like it need to "learn to play", the reality is THEY'RE the ones that need to learn to play...

They're sacrificing a system that requires intelligence (tab-targeting) in exchange for a system that just requires aiming, jumping over, around, and through your opponent, and of course, just going back and forth, strafing like a moron, etc.

True skills come from the intelligence of knowing exactly what ability to use at any given moment, not from jumping around, and using any skill you want, because you can just "aim well", and move in such a way that gets your more intelligent opponent to miss..

So, in reality, the free-form targeting people need to "Learn To Play", because tab-targeting adds depth, and requires a more strategy and cunning, whereas free-form requires you to be one of those 10 year old call of duty players we hear whining to thier mommies over the X-Box... "Just 10 more minutes Mom".

Are those the players we want to attract with this game, my DAoC bretheren?

Originally posted by Qallidexz

Are those the players we want to attract with this game, my DAoC bretheren?

The single best feature to prevent the strafe, jumping, ADD face smashing in Dark Age of Camelot was the 'fumble'.  

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by Qallidexz

Are those the players we want to attract with this game, my DAoC bretheren?

 

The single best feature to prevent the strafe, jumping, ADD face smashing in Dark Age of Camelot was the 'fumble'.  

I would say that it was a combination of tab-targeting, with the /stick, and /face commands.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Stiler

Here is a quick youtube video showing the combat somewhat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbcZvGSgVk

I want to see combat that doesn't ignore terrain features.

(He swings his sword right through pillars, several times (0:30) in that video. And the blood-splatter's gotta go, thought Conan killed that idea for good.)

Funny you mention that, because for the most part it usually works that way. The terrain does affect weapons, using a "big sword" or something in a small hallway with walls near you, etc , you will hit the wall and it won't work well, for some reason that pillar let it through though, but I agree that yes, terrain should affect weapons and such.

Still it's just a small thing, the combat itself is the most fun melee combat I've played in an action game.

Originally posted by Qallidexz

Originally posted by Tumblebutz

You guys are all missing the central point.  What most players want (certainly the posters in this thread) is a high level of complexity in combat.  The battle between" tab targetting" and "free form targetting" is really a debate about where that complexity lies.  Free form targetting creates a level of complexity in the targetting, itself... this necessarily removes complexity from the skills and abilities which you are attempting to land.

On the other hand, tab-targetting removes the complexity from the targetting system and allows for a far more complex and sophisticated system of abilities and skills.

There is a difference between "complex" and "compicated."  I think free-form targetting makes combat complicated without adding any real complexity.  I want a complex system, not a complicated system... just my opinion.

I think you nailed it here, while the free-form targeting people seem to think that that targeting model takes "skill", and people who don't like it need to "learn to play", the reality is THEY'RE the ones that need to learn to play...

They're sacrificing a system that requires intelligence (tab-targeting) in exchange for a system that just requires aiming, jumping over, around, and through your opponent, and of course, just going back and forth, strafing like a moron, etc.

True skills come from the intelligence of knowing exactly what ability to use at any given moment, not from jumping around, and using any skill you want, because you can just "aim well", and move in such a way that gets your more intelligent opponent to miss..

So, in reality, the free-form targeting people need to "Learn To Play", because tab-targeting adds depth, and requires a more strategy and cunning, whereas free-form requires you to be one of those 10 year old call of duty players we hear whining to thier mommies over the X-Box... "Just 10 more minutes Mom".

Are those the players we want to attract with this game, my DAoC bretheren?

 

 

I do appreciate the insults and bias aimed toward CoD and assuming all people are 10 year olds.

Targetting is not tied to how complex, or complicated a game is, that depends moreso on how the games combat is designed.

For exmample, you use call of duty as an example of fps, as though you think all fps games are like that. Now I will use Red Orchestra to counter your argument.

RO is vastly different from CoD, even though they are "fps" games. For one, Red Orchestra has no crosshairs, period. You aim through your sights, or you hip shoot without a crosshair. On top of this RO accounts for more realistic bullet drop and other things. Also a single hit in RO can kill you, even from a pistol if it hits you in the right area. There's not a lot of people that just run around "run n gun" a la call of duty. It's a completely different, and more complex shooter then CoD is, more in-depth and fun to some people.

If you have free aim for ranged users, they can still have many varied skills and magic spells in his aresnal, he will just need to aim them. That doesn't mean you have no skills or abilities.

This also can open up MORE complexity then your usual "tab" targetting, why? Because think about it, you can aim and use spells anywhere, not all spells have to be offensive or cause direct-damage affects or have a "target."

Mages could setup things like flame walls (especially useful if in a tight controlled space, IE A hallway or something to funnel people in).

You could have a levitate spell (like say, what it hits, it "levitates" for x duration) and you actually have to AIM it, instead of tab-target>mash hotkey, you aim hit and hit your spell key and if oyu miss, you miss, if you hit it your levitate what you are aiming at.

The lack of tab targetting does not mean a game is less in-depth then tab targetting enabled, it merely means you have to actualy aim things.

It also frees up some skills, because they can be determined by HOW you aim. As I gave an example of earlier.

If an Archer wants to "slow" someone, instead of having a specific hotkey for a "slow" ability, they would have to aim and hit someone in the leg with an arrow, that could slow their movement speed, thus you don't need a hotkey for that.

To some people aiming is more fun. If I want to hit someone in the head as an archer, I want to aim for it, and let my skill (and perhaps a bit of luck) determine if I land my shot there, not a lock-on tab target that pre determines in if I have a skil called "head shot."

This kind of combat does not get as reptitive to me, because it takes away the "sure thing" involved in tab targetting, it makes combat more dynamic, more suspensful, knowing that if you miss, it's because of your or the other players skills and not a pre determined lock-on or a die roll determining "you missed."

Originally posted by Qallidexz

I would say that it was a combination of tab-targeting, with the /stick, and /face commands.

Yes sir, I mentioned that earlier in the discussion.  I couldn't agree more.

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Originally posted by Canan

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Originally posted by Killsmallchi I honestly think it is just bad players that ask for tab targetting. I just keep reading,'spells need tab target' and 'I cant hit things without tab target' Seriously learn to not be terrible. Tab targetting is old and based on lacking technology. If they tab target all it will show is that this is another sub par game. If you can not aim, go play solitaire.

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I will never understand this argument of "being good" at aiming. I am quite good at FPS games and aiming and I find it honestly "simple." I see no skill in trying to target your enemy and attack...is that really considered a skill? And if one actually does consider that a skill how does it lessen the the "skill" of tab targeting games? There is plenty of strategic and tactical decision making that is involved in the "skill" of the genre which separates a "good" player from a novice.

To sum it up - these are two different games both which involve different thinking and maneuvering skills to excel. Are those necessarily skills? I would argue not. However, if we are going to use label them as skills, their differences and setting make them incomparable in my opinion.

Cheers~

 

 

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Exactly, personally i find tab targeting games harder because to be really good at them you need to know everything about the game, all the classes all the skills, all the calls etc. "skill" based games im pretty sure you could have some of the best stats in the world by simply rolling your face along the keyboard.

Originally posted by skyexile

 

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Originally posted by Canan

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Originally posted by Killsmallchi I honestly think it is just bad players that ask for tab targetting. I just keep reading,'spells need tab target' and 'I cant hit things without tab target' Seriously learn to not be terrible. Tab targetting is old and based on lacking technology. If they tab target all it will show is that this is another sub par game. If you can not aim, go play solitaire.

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I will never understand this argument of "being good" at aiming. I am quite good at FPS games and aiming and I find it honestly "simple." I see no skill in trying to target your enemy and attack...is that really considered a skill? And if one actually does consider that a skill how does it lessen the the "skill" of tab targeting games? There is plenty of strategic and tactical decision making that is involved in the "skill" of the genre which separates a "good" player from a novice.

 

To sum it up - these are two different games both which involve different thinking and maneuvering skills to excel. Are those necessarily skills? I would argue not. However, if we are going to use label them as skills, their differences and setting make them incomparable in my opinion.

Cheers~

 

 

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Exactly, personally i find tab targeting games harder because to be really good at them you need to know everything about the game, all the classes all the skills, all the calls etc. "skill" based games im pretty sure you could have some of the best stats in the world by simply rolling your face along the keyboard.

That has absolutely nothing to do with tab targetting or free aim, the idea that without tab targetting you have "no skills/abilities" to use is absurd and makes no sense.

There are more ways to use skills then hotkey toolbars and tab targetting, or even f ree aim + hotkeys.

The point of no tab targetting doesn't mean no skills or abilities, it just means you have to actually aim, rather then target>cast ability.

This in no way means it has to be simple, or complex, or that you don't need to know classes, ablitiles of others, and adapt or have in depth combat.

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Originally posted by Stiler

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Originally posted by skyexile  

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Originally posted by Canan

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Originally posted by Killsmallchi I honestly think it is just bad players that ask for tab targetting. I just keep reading,'spells need tab target' and 'I cant hit things without tab target' Seriously learn to not be terrible. Tab targetting is old and based on lacking technology. If they tab target all it will show is that this is another sub par game. If you can not aim, go play solitaire.

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I will never understand this argument of "being good" at aiming. I am quite good at FPS games and aiming and I find it honestly "simple." I see no skill in trying to target your enemy and attack...is that really considered a skill? And if one actually does consider that a skill how does it lessen the the "skill" of tab targeting games? There is plenty of strategic and tactical decision making that is involved in the "skill" of the genre which separates a "good" player from a novice.   To sum it up - these are two different games both which involve different thinking and maneuvering skills to excel. Are those necessarily skills? I would argue not. However, if we are going to use label them as skills, their differences and setting make them incomparable in my opinion. Cheers~    

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  Exactly, personally i find tab targeting games harder because to be really good at them you need to know everything about the game, all the classes all the skills, all the calls etc. "skill" based games im pretty sure you could have some of the best stats in the world by simply rolling your face along the keyboard.

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That has absolutely nothing to do with tab targetting or free aim, the idea that without tab targetting you have "no skills/abilities" to use is absurd and makes no sense.

There are more ways to use skills then hotkey toolbars and tab targetting, or even f ree aim + hotkeys.

The point of no tab targetting doesn't mean no skills or abilities, it just means you have to actually aim, rather then target>cast ability.

 

This in no way means it has to be simple, or complex, or that you don't need to know classes, ablitiles of others, and adapt or have in depth combat.

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i never said no skills or abilities, i dont know what you put that in quotation marks, but its obvious that a game said to be "skill" based is going to have far less abilities than those using tab targeting which makes the game far easier to learn.