Why can't I just be dropped in a game world and expected to figure out what to do first?  

If I want to know how to use my sword and inventory, I'll press F1.

The first sign of a bad game to me is when you log into a tutorial.  Not only the tutorial, but no way to bypass it.

Does anyone remember those old shooter games where you moved around and shot at the screen and couldn't control where and when you moved, you just got railed around the game and had to shoot people arcade style before they shot you?  Yeah that's what MMO games are starting to feel like.

MMO games are trying to appeal to dumber and dumber people?  Younger maybe?  Really old?  I don't know.  I hate that all these mmo games are dummy proof and anyone who has at least 4 fingers and an IQ of 61 can compete.

What I'm saying is.... wheres the challenge?  I don't mean perfecting the dance routine to dodge the monsters blows, that's arcade stuff, I'm not interested.   I want to explore the world and find things.  Actually get killed and drop all my stuff once in a while. 

Any suggestions?

That game is Age of Wushu. Yes there is a stupid tutorial that you will wish would end, but after they kick you into the world with 1% of the knowledge out there, you'll be looking for a guide. So many systems most people kinda just know what they know.

Try EVE. Turn off the tutorial at launch.

Good luck!  Let me know how it turns out for you. 

Age of wushu sounds best out of these options. I know theres a fad having to do with no levels, but I wish it'd go away.  The reason they wanted to do away with levels is because they made it possible to reach the max level.  Since it was possible to reach max level in a game, they had to put all the great content at the max level.  Then since people cried about the long grind, they decided to take away the levels.  Now we basically have mmo-arcade-games.

Even is an oldfart game with a miserable / dieing fanbase waiting for the next big thing.

TSW is a twitch based arcade style, not only you have to think but you have to jump through the hoops at exactly the right time or gg.

Originally posted by Abuz0r

Why can't I just be dropped in a game world and expected to figure out what to do first?  

If I want to know how to use my sword and inventory, I'll press F1.

The first sign of a bad game to me is when you log into a tutorial.  Not only the tutorial, but no way to bypass it.

Does anyone remember those old shooter games where you moved around and shot at the screen and couldn't control where and when you moved, you just got railed around the game and had to shoot people arcade style before they shot you?  Yeah that's what MMO games are starting to feel like.

MMO games are trying to appeal to dumber and dumber people?  Younger maybe?  Really old?  I don't know.  I hate that all these mmo games are dummy proof and anyone who has at least 4 fingers and an IQ of 61 can compete.

What I'm saying is.... wheres the challenge?  I don't mean perfecting the dance routine to dodge the monsters blows, that's arcade stuff, I'm not interested.   I want to explore the world and find things.  Actually get killed and drop all my stuff once in a while. 

 

Any suggestions?

I play a bit of GW2.  My biggest turn off is that they have a different cultivating tool for every kind of cultivation.  19 different types of ore veins require you to carry 19 different pick axes. 

Also, the combat feels arcade style again, making me dodge attacks. I don't have amazing twitch reactions, that's why I'm playing mmorpg games and not shooters.  Quite honestly, I want my character to have the chance to dodge because I trained him, I don't want to have to do it for him.

I do understand the hybrid feel of the game where you take more control of what your character does, I really just want a good old fashioned MMORPG.  Think of original runescape or everquest with the latest and greatest graphics.  People spamming you to figure out how to open their inventory etc.

Tutorials are not the issue, hell.. even EQ had one, but they go on FAR too long these days I agree.

That aside, they have a place.

Well, if you want statistical combat theres WoW, aion and other similar games. But theyre going to hold your hand through the content.

Your best bet for now would probably be GW2 but seeing you already play it. nil. Atleast no triple-A's around for now and none in horizon either.

Originally posted by Abuz0r

MMO games are trying to appeal to dumber and dumber people?  Younger maybe?  Really old?  I don't know.  I hate that all these mmo games are dummy proof and anyone who has at least 4 fingers and an IQ of 61 can compete.

 Any suggestions?

Grey Poupon.

TSW, AoW and GW2 do not actually lead your character around the world much(in Aow/gw2 case not at all really) but people still say that they do. my guess is unless it's a sandbox people will jsut call them all guided even if they aren't. for laughs though, archeage is more guided than half the themparks that have come out in the last half a year.

can't wait to see how that goes over with this tough guy me love snadbox crowd.

Originally posted by Abuz0r

I play a bit of GW2.  My biggest turn off is that they have a different cultivating tool for every kind of cultivation.  19 different types of ore veins require you to carry 19 different pick axes. 

Also, the combat feels arcade style again, making me dodge attacks. I don't have amazing twitch reactions, that's why I'm playing mmorpg games and not shooters.  Quite honestly, I want my character to have the chance to dodge because I trained him, I don't want to have to do it for him.

I do understand the hybrid feel of the game where you take more control of what your character does, I really just want a good old fashioned MMORPG.  Think of original runescape or everquest with the latest and greatest graphics.  People spamming you to figure out how to open their inventory etc.

LOL no you don't just buy the best kind it can cultivate ANY of the lower ones:P All cultivation items can cultivate what they made made for and any lower tier cultivation node(says so right in the item description.. aren't you the one that's complaining about hand holding and tutorials?:P) you never need more than one of each of the 3 cultivation items.. but yea if you don't care for action combat gw2 won't be for you

also with that last part sounds like AoW is up your alley again because I had no clue what half the menu items did or were for even after the tutorial :P(although a lot is due to the translations)

Sounds like to me you are looking for a game like Mortal Online. I tried it and wouldn't recommend it to anyone but it doesn't do much for hand holding. 

GW2 lol

Originally posted by Abuz0r

Age of wushu sounds best out of these options. I know theres a fad having to do with no levels, but I wish it'd go away.  The reason they wanted to do away with levels is because they made it possible to reach the max level.  Since it was possible to reach max level in a game, they had to put all the great content at the max level.  Then since people cried about the long grind, they decided to take away the levels.  Now we basically have mmo-arcade-games.

Even is an oldfart game with a miserable / dieing fanbase waiting for the next big thing.

TSW is a twitch based arcade style, not only you have to think but you have to jump through the hoops at exactly the right time or gg.

I know what EVE is, apparently you don't, let me educate you.

It is one of the longest running MMO's in the business, has been growing its subscriber base steadily (if slowly) since launch and now is somewhere around 400K subs  which would make it more popular than about 90% of the MMO's out there.

The fanbase is neither miserable or dying, in fact many probably can't envision ever really leaving, there's nothing quite like EVE out there, but I will agree, it does not appeal to a very large segment of the greater playerbase.

When they turn the lights out on this genre, EVE and it's players will likely be the last folks standing in the reckage.

Anyways, you asked if there was a game that doesn't try to hold your hand, no one can accuse EVE of doing that, even if you were to take the 3-4 hours to do the tutorials.  (you still wouldn't have a clue what to do next)

How about DFUW, it's in beta now, and certainly won't be holding anyone's hands.

You know, you really can't have a challenging MMO but keep turning your nose up at MMO's that have difficulty built into them in terms of requiring you to think, or use some coordination to master the content.

They just aren't going to remake EQ1, sorry, EQNEXT will likely have designs you don't care for either. (including a good tutorial)

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Abuz0r

Age of wushu sounds best out of these options. I know theres a fad having to do with no levels, but I wish it'd go away.  The reason they wanted to do away with levels is because they made it possible to reach the max level.  Since it was possible to reach max level in a game, they had to put all the great content at the max level.  Then since people cried about the long grind, they decided to take away the levels.  Now we basically have mmo-arcade-games.

Even is an oldfart game with a miserable / dieing fanbase waiting for the next big thing.

TSW is a twitch based arcade style, not only you have to think but you have to jump through the hoops at exactly the right time or gg.

I know what EVE is, apparently you don't, let me educate you.

Oh, challenge issued with a dart to the E(ve)go.

This thread could get nasty.

Originally posted by Abuz0r

I play a bit of GW2.  My biggest turn off is that they have a different cultivating tool for every kind of cultivation.  19 different types of ore veins require you to carry 19 different pick axes. 

Also, the combat feels arcade style again, making me dodge attacks. I don't have amazing twitch reactions, that's why I'm playing mmorpg games and not shooters.  Quite honestly, I want my character to have the chance to dodge because I trained him, I don't want to have to do it for him.

I do understand the hybrid feel of the game where you take more control of what your character does, I really just want a good old fashioned MMORPG.  Think of original runescape or everquest with the latest and greatest graphics.  People spamming you to figure out how to open their inventory etc.

So Mr Intelligent, why is it you cannot work out that a high level pick axe/scythe/axe can mine all nodes? do you understand the meaning of irony? I'd take Kylerans idea or my suggestion is Wurm online get back to me when you've worked out how to build a house and stayed alive long enough to actually build one and do it all on a wild server.