Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

I see this argument all the time and never understand it.

Do you have a cell phone? How much of your monthly fee is wasted because you're not talking on it 24/7?

Do you have cable? How do you justify such an expense when every time you look away from the television you are wasting your sub fee?

It just blows my mind that people have no problem paying $50+ a month on a cell phone and $100+ a month for cable, yet they'll bitch about $15 a  month for interactive entertainment.

 

you make it sound like its no big deal.

I use my phone every day for different things, i dont care about TV, the internet has the news and the movies can be rented. I dont play sub based mmos every day. Its not about how many hours can you play a day. its about how many times can you play before the month of service is up. I personaly dont like subs for that reason. If i dont play at least 75% of the month of service, i will not sub.... and i know i dont play the same game that much, sooo..... yeah

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

WOW malware warning from Chrome immediately on clicking the link. Amazing.

And there is such a thing as REALLY REALLY bad games btw. Things that are offered that no one likes to play at all ever that die out. And guess what, as much as I'd like to say it's due to subscription models, it's not.

Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

1) But most players are obnoxious (worse than me, even,) no wonder people will rather go solo :D

2) Agreed. The obnoxious lot likes it easy. (Gimme-gimme-gimme a purple b'fore midnight).

3) Because the cheap obnoxious guys want it all for free. Someone has to pay.

4) The obnoxious guys have a short attention span. Give them a proper world to explore, and they will be off to GW2 before you know it (flame intended).

5) I have no idea what any of that means, but I don't like the look of "AH"s for sure.

6) I'm not sure why this is killing gaming, but I'll take your word for it.

7) I have already forgotten about the empty or overcrowded non-instanced games. Don't remind me of it.

8) Play a game as a substitute for the job you haven't got. Fun is for losers.

9) Dragons shouldn't be pink. That's just wrong.

10) There's nothing like a surprise.

11) They are trying to offset the obnoxious guys on a personal vendetta of hate because the developers care about other things then their own private requests. Did I say requests? I ment demands.

12) Paying players. What an abomination. 

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

 

In my opinion, WoW is the classic subsription-based game and the problem I find with this model is that I waste a bit of my subsription when I stop playing it.

 

I see this argument all the time and never understand it.

Do you have a cell phone? How much of your monthly fee is wasted because you're not talking on it 24/7?

Do you have cable? How do you justify such an expense when every time you look away from the television you are wasting your sub fee?

It just blows my mind that people have no problem paying $50+ a month on a cell phone and $100+ a month for cable, yet they'll bitch about $15 a  month for interactive entertainment.

 

I do have an iPhone and I use pay-as-you go.  However, having a phone is essential these days (like heating and electricity) - it's a 'need' not a 'want', so you shouldn't be comparing it to a game.

I use 'cable' every day for work. PCs are also used for business, you know!

$15 doesn't seem like very much, but if you add together tiny expenses it can come to an awful lot - so you have to be careful - this is just good housekeeping. Particularly in this economic environment, and today the EU predicted a further period of economic downturn.

Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

This is a very interesting post. I'm reminded of WoW for some reason!

I think "9) flying mounts" is the most interesting suggestion - on reflection, having a flying mount turns a quest list from an adventure into a shopping list.

Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

As you state above, there's lots of reasons for the failure of the modern MMORPG to hold a large audience over the long term, (it might not actually be possible outside of WOW) and few can name a successful subscription MMORPGn (again, outside of WOW or EVE)  in recent years either.

The payment model doesn't determine the success or failure of a game, though it certainly can influence the game design in such a way that may be viewed negatively by a portion of the gaming market.

In fact, I recently came back to Aion just because it was now F2P and has a model that I can live with.

(Actually I wish it had some items that I really valued, can't find anything I want worth buying to support the title)

Originally posted by Rhinotones

Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

Sure.

1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

But we will have the game to ourselves :(

Look at TSW's feeble attempt to be "punnishing" (yeah, right).

People won't have it. 

What happened to perma-death? If you die, how come you're back and kicking ten sec later?

The problem as I see it is that people ask for things they don't actually want. Look at the sandbox people. Whenever a sandbox comes along, noone plays, and even fewer pays.

Come to think of it, I'm no better. I kind of like to feel competent even if I'm not.

I feel like the real argument here isn't FTP or P2P or P2W.... it's just hardcore players vs casual players (as usual).

My Reasoning:

It seems like Hardcore players prefer the P2P method because they have all the time in the world to play the game, and thus can achieve/succeed in a game where time is the only factor for success.  And Casual players prefer P2W and FTP because they aren't paying a monthly subscription, and can get ahead with 3 easy payments of 99 99 99!  Of course the guy who just spent 36 hours to be the best will hate the guy who just spent money to be the best, and vice versa.

And thus, endless forum arguments ensue about FTP or P2P or whatever the new payment is, and endless discussions about casuals destroying the hardcore gamer's game, ruining the community, etc.  All this bitterness over who has time to pour into an MMO and who doesn't...

PS: since hardcore gamers of course have all this time on their hands to play games, naturally they have time to endlessly troll forums whining about casuals, and payment methods, etc.

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Rhinotones

Originally posted by boxsnd

Here are the actual reasons for the death of gaming/MMOs:

 

1) Solo leveling being as fast or even faster than group leveling (so many players nowadays who don't even chat, you can't tell them apart from bots)

2) No challenge / easy mode questing / pve. "Everybody is a winner, there are no losers"

3) P2W cash shops

4) minimaps and interactive maps ("exploration" = no need to learn the landscape, we will tell you where everything is, you just have to play connect the dots. You will never get lost ever...)

5) AHs and RMAHs (AHs are worse though)

6) cross-server 1-button dungeon queueing

7) Instances (arenas/bgs/dungeons/raids)

8) daily quests

9) flying mounts

10) culling

11) Devs and fanboys hyping their games with lies

12) "F2P" that are endless trials in disguise (paying players having an advantage in PvP)

Is what you're suggesting is that MMO's need a new model that addresses the points you've mentioned because what you've said is a very big statement considering many mmo's impliment a number of these points. Can you provide alternatives to your 12 point summation?

Sure.

1) Make leveling in groups about 2x as fast as soloing. Force people to become social. Communities will be much better if you teach players to be nice to eachother from the start (and if they aren't they will have to resort to soloing which is slower)

2) Make games challenging. Let players fail / die / wipe / lose if they are playing poorly. Don't design the whole game around bad players with no patience. Make the world feel dangerous and scary, not a kids playground.

3) Cash shops are cool as long as they aren't P2W.

4) No interactive minimaps/maps. Static maps that have to be explored fully are fine. No "you stepped into that zone = we will show you every single point of interest / town / dungeon etc". The more information is on the minimap/map the more time I am watching them and not my surroundings (Immersion breaking). GW2 the worst culprit in this. I remember playing GW1 back in the day and being amazed at how beautiful the graphics are. GW2's are better but I could not appreciate them because all I was looking at was my minimap/map.

5) AH = Auction House = no interaction between players = shit community. Give me a trade channel that can be turned on or off (PoE does this well)

6) Give me a /lfg channel. No 1-button cross-server automatic group + porting to the dungeon. It is immersion breaking and community destroying. 

7) I just hate instances. They break immersion and are horribly boring since they are predictable. Give me non-instanced dungeons, where you encounter other groups of players, sometimes team up with them, and on PvP servers fight with them for a good spot / boss kill (and sometimes even strike a deal with them "give us 20 gold and we will let you live")

8) daily quests feel like a job, not a game.

9) flying mounts will die with WoW so I don't even have to defend my opinion

11) This is the main reason F2Ps are the future of gaming. We have been lied to too many times to believe your shit devs/fanboys! From now on we will try your game for free and IF it is as good as you say we will pay subscription or buy stuff from your cash shop. 

12) Proper F2P or GTFO. You can still get money from F2P players if you have a good  game and a good cash shop. 

But it doesn't sell. 

See, the problem is not F2P or P2P. The problem is MMOs are designed with the market as it is nowadays, several years after WoW release. Back before that happned MMOs maybe had 100-300k players, the really popular ones had up to 500k, but mention such number these days (except EVE) and you get called a failure. 

The very same community that asks for all those "old school" features is the community that calls a game with less than million players a complete and utter waste of internet space basing it purely on the playerbase numbers. 

Games are made for large crowd because that's where the money is, that's where you can get "decent" playerbase at, and that's why they are more player friendly than challenge oriented. 

Then also comes the sheer volume of choice you have. MMOs are forced to compete one with eachother because if do not like the features of game A you can just go to game B or C or all the way up to Z. 

Bottom line is If you want a game that is clsoer to pre WoW-era MMOs you should be ready and willing to accept smaller community, possibility of visuals not being on par with big AAA titles and overall hate from the rest of the gaming community  because no companyw ill throw unlimited resources at something that won't bring huge profits in long term. 

  Well as a long time mmorpg subscriber starting with Eq for many years, then WoW, I was kind of at a mmorpg standstill, until EQ2 went to FTP, I had played EQ2 when it first came out and it didnt catch me, but logging in to try  it again when they went FTP, I was shocked and amazed what an amazing game EQ2 had become for my taste anyways.

 Within two weeks I had subscribed to a Gold membership so I had complete access and the game still has me hooked almost a year later. So from a marketing standpoint the FTP got me to try there game again and I ended up a subscriber, smart business model. I have even purchased two expansions. So anyone who liked  EQ or any mmorpg for that matter and has not tried EQ2 for a while I would recommend at taking a look with the FTP model and see what you think.

---

Originally posted by Edeus
I feel like the real argument here isn't FTP or P2P or P2W.... it's just hardcore players vs casual players (as usual).

 

My Reasoning:

It seems like Hardcore players prefer the P2P method because they have all the time in the world to play the game, and thus can achieve/succeed in a game where time is the only factor for success.  And Casual players prefer P2W and FTP because they aren't paying a monthly subscription, and can get ahead with 3 easy payments of 99 99 99!  Of course the guy who just spent 36 hours to be the best will hate the guy who just spent money to be the best, and vice versa.

 

And thus, endless forum arguments ensue about FTP or P2P or whatever the new payment is, and endless discussions about casuals destroying the hardcore gamer's game, ruining the community, etc.  All this bitterness over who has time to pour into an MMO and who doesn't...

 

PS: since hardcore gamers of course have all this time on their hands to play games, naturally they have time to endlessly troll forums whining about casuals, and payment methods, etc.

---

totally agree!

may be the fact that devs can't make hardcore only / casual only games can "kill" community.
game itself gonna die only it has many fails /not attractive to any of these groups.

I keep telling: each game need to have at least 1 hardcore server with endless grind, no hints, no mounts, no portals, tons of aggressive mobs, highly skilled Bosses and other horrors. Just one, as I doubt about it's huge popularity.

PvP can be buy to win, why not? it FREE game after all = FREE choice for you not to PvP or pay for it.
need cheap PvP game equal to all: try GW2. Boring?
then or pay sub, or buy might or grind for it, or loose PvP.

buy-to-win games, are few of these, seems to be less attractive to players at least as they cost pretty too much.

f2p is great model for casual players, that why they have such great success. Beside after few bad boxes, I rather try free then buy hype.

and last thought: p2p kills community way faster as the day you can't pay you'r out.

I feel like it's only the death of gaming because it gives players the ability to effortlessly jump in and out of a game without offering up one single penny of support to the developer.. Even if they like the game enough to play for 2 months until the next "big" F2P releases, they can just hop ship without any donation or support to keep the game alive. People claim to dislike P2W, but even when the shop is cosmetic only, they complain that there is nothing "good" to buy so again they refuse to help keep the game above water..

F2P is a sleazy, no commitment way for a player to use a game as a stone until another new F2P launches and they can simply just leap to the next stone. This isn't in the spirit of competition either, competition is when they have options based on what is offered however in the MMO space it all depends on release dates and hype trains which may or may not be based on factual information just blind faith and fandom.

Charging a price to get in not only increases the value of your product (EVERY P2P game that has gone F2P after at least a year has seen a 200% increase n population at least for a few weeks after launch, meaning that there WERE people really wanting to play the game and seen value in it somewhere), but I think it offers up a sense of commitment of support at least so if they play it at all, then they have told the developer "ya know, here is what you may be due for your time however I may or may not continue to pay you"

BUY2PLAY is where the industry needs to be.. TSW and GW2 are very good models on where the industry should take it's development. You buy the box and you OWN the content contained in the MMO. No need to nickel and dime for content supposed to be included in the software at purchase like SWTOR has done, I feel that was wrong and it was the wrong way to go with the game.

There would still be a barrier to entry which most of us are use to, well if you've purchased ANY game in your life time (got to throw that out because some people simple torrent everything and literally have no respect for any industry or commerce at all), and I feel that it would alow games to stay afloat longer than they been having a chance to.

People smile when they see a game sink into the water and a company fade away, but thats like calling yourself a pet lover and celebrating when an animal is sent to the kill-shelter down the road.. It defeats the purpose of calling yourself a fan.. We need to find a way to support our industry and stop proving why this genre should just melt away into proven sellers like Call of Duty and Gears of War..

So, lets look at how software as a service has worked for prior products..

How many of you here have emails? How many of you pay for your email accounts? Hmm.. Free has worked pretty well.

How many of you search for stuff on the web? How many of you pay for this? Hmm.. Free has worked pretty well.

How many of you have a social media account (facebook, etc)? How many of you pay for this? Hmm.. Free has worked pretty well.

Video games have progressed from a product you buy, to a service that you use. They are following a pattern that has worked well for other services, and will most likley have the same results. There is nothing new here...

Free 2 Play has it's advantages and disadvantages...

First off, it's free which means more people are likely to at least try it versus a P2P model with a smaller community. Secondly, F2P doesn't make you feel forced to play because you're not paying for the time your playing. Lastly, F2P allows games to actually utilize cash shops without players feeling like they are being ripped off.

As for the downside to F2P, the fact pretty much anyone can play it without financial contribution means you'll most likely see a lot of cheaters or basically a poor community with foul mouthed immature individuals debunking the whole immersion factor. You will also see F2P games that aren't doing so well with their "fluff cash shops" converting to a "Pay to Win" model instead. Lastly, your not going to see a lot of player dedication to groups or guilds as I mentioned above, no one will feel financially obligated to play the game.

What do I personally think about F2P games vs. P2P? Well, unless games like WoW which still utilize the P2P model actually use some of that funding to stop cheaters or gold farmers from plaguing the community, I'll just play F2P games which offer the same thing at no cost to me.