My first post to these forums so please be nice! lol

A little about me first i guess...Im a veteran of Wow playing at the sharp end on progression and i quit a few months before MoP landed.  I played Secret World for a couple of months before moving on to GW2.  Ive been a gamer since the 1980's and im pretty sure ive played every single top game of its day on every platform ever released since the BBC micro! lol

This subject of the Holy Trinity is very much a subjective issue imo.  The very traditional MMO model created this holy trinity of character roles but i feel gaming itself is moving forward and the GW2 development of strong individual characters is the correct next step in MMO gaming.... and heres why.

Using GW2 as an example i can see that every player is expected to be alot more skillful in general to be able to compete as they progress through the game.  Now, im not saying that Wow has lower skill requirments, it simply has a different gamer skillset requirement.  GW2 appears to have require a player to use good old fashioned gaming skills of reactions and very fast decision making.  This can be seen in the fact that u need to dodge incoming damage, react fast with selfheals when u take damage.  You are expected to move your character around a whole lot more in GW2 then u do in Wow too.  Ofc the higher level PvE content requires the player to be even faster reactions, even better group vision to react to every players situations.

Wow demands a higher degree of organisation and coordination of the team overall, usually from a raid leader.  GW2 doesnt need this at all.  Each player is required to know his job and perform or the team fails.

The Wow model of the holy trinity narrows the players skills into one role which they can tunnel and learn much easier imo.  The Wow boss fights show this very clearly.  The GW2 bossfights r easier to learn than the Wow bossfights BUT the GW2 bossfights r much more difficult to master.  The main skill a Wow PvEr needs to do is learn the fight before he turns up by watching videos of what to do.  There arent many reactionary boss mechanics in Wow so u simply end up running the same 'path' through a boss.  Basically speaking once u have learned a boss u can do it with your eyes shut in Wow.  In GW2 the bosses r far more random and u need to keep on your toes to stay alive and also do enough damage to kill him... every fight against the same boss is different.

Ofc its all up to personal preference what type on gaming u prefer to which game u play. 

Another major reason GW2 went down a road of losing the Holy Trinity was so that players didnt fall into the trap of not being able to do content due to not being able to find a certain class (another player) to play with.  U simply group up with any 5 players in GW2 and u can run a dungeon.  Looking for pug groups in Wow is much tougher. 

Originally posted by MyTabbycat
GW2 dungeons were ok but not as much fun as WoW raiding. I think part of it had to do with the lack of Trinity and the other part of it just with the lack of interesting loot. There was too much work involved for very little reward.

no theres still good loot to take nasty looking pieces of armor and weapons

put these players that want gear progression cant understand it

Holy trinity? More like unholy trinity.

Three identical servers/worlds (with identical classes) =/= Three completely different factions with unique classes

Er, you were talking about the OTHER holy trinity... Tank/Dps/Heal is the way to go (+ any other hybrid classes).

When you take class teamwork and group role dependence out of the equation the gameplay suffers as a result.

And no, running about in a big zerg or all mashing attacks on the same target isn't "Teamwork."

Trinity never went anywhere inspite of GW2.

Originally posted by MyTabbycat
GW2 dungeons were ok but not as much fun as WoW raiding. I think part of it had to do with the lack of Trinity and the other part of it just with the lack of interesting loot. There was too much work involved for very little reward.

U cant compare GW2 dungeons with Wow raids, theyre totally different.  Compare GW2 dungeons to Wow dungeons and compare Wow raids to GW2 Fractals is the best comparison possible.

GW2 has stated publically their reason for making their 'endgame' PvE content (fractals) 5man is because its easier to get together 5 people then to find 10 or more.  They havent even tried to create something to replace Wow raiding, they simply invented something different and equally as challenging (u try running lev50+ Fractals and tell me its easier than Wow heroic raids! lol).

GW2 also made loot drops inferior to crafting loot where they feel the best loot should be.  I tend to agree with this as it keeps crafting viable throughout the growth of the game.  Wow crafting is almost pointless.

Your comment "There was too much work for little reward" is a bit biased... u tell a Wow player who has to do months of dailies to get something that theyre not doing much 'work'.  This opinion that u get given free stuffs for not much effort is a cancer within WOw players... please dont bring that to GW2, we are happy to put in alot of effort for the top loot thanks :)

Originally posted by Ende

Originally posted by MyTabbycat
GW2 dungeons were ok but not as much fun as WoW raiding. I think part of it had to do with the lack of Trinity and the other part of it just with the lack of interesting loot. There was too much work involved for very little reward.

U cant compare GW2 dungeons with Wow raids, theyre totally different.  Compare GW2 dungeons to Wow dungeons and compare Wow raids to GW2 Fractals is the best comparison possible.

GW2 has stated publically their reason for making their 'endgame' PvE content (fractals) 5man is because its easier to get together 5 people then to find 10 or more.  They havent even tried to create something to replace Wow raiding, they simply invented something different and equally as challenging (u try running lev50+ Fractals and tell me its easier than Wow heroic raids! lol).

GW2 also made loot drops inferior to crafting loot where they feel the best loot should be.  I tend to agree with this as it keeps crafting viable throughout the growth of the game.  Wow crafting is almost pointless.

 

Your comment "There was too much work for little reward" is a bit biased... u tell a Wow player who has to do months of dailies to get something that theyre not doing much 'work'.  This opinion that u get given free stuffs for not much effort is a cancer within WOw players... please dont bring that to GW2, we are happy to put in alot of effort for the top loot thanks :)

 

GW2 dungeons also suck compared to WoW dungeons, so it doesn't really change anything. 

Originally posted by Draemos

 

GW2 dungeons also suck compared to WoW dungeons, so it doesn't really change anything. 

wow dungeons were fun for the first couple times but  i could do most of them while watching TV and hardly paying attention after awhile unless i was on my healer.. the pace of gw2 dungeons I can't really look away for second or ill get smoked.. to each their own i guess

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Draemos

 

GW2 dungeons also suck compared to WoW dungeons, so it doesn't really change anything. 

wow dungeons were fun for the first couple times but  i could do most of them while watching TV and hardly paying attention after awhile unless i was on my healer.. the pace of gw2 dungeons I can't really look away for second or ill get smoked.. to each their own i guess

I think we've established that GW2 groupings are chaotic and haphazard.  That's why they suck.  It's 5 folks playing hero ball and hoping atleast one of you isn't terrible, as opposed to a more team oriented party based system.

On top of that they become significantly easier the more guardians that are in your party, to the point where having 3+ guardians make dungeons an absolute cakewalk.  I don't recall the last time a game had a single class that so far outpaced the other classes in PvE dungeon content... And this is from a game that's whole system is designed to prevent that.

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Draemos

 

GW2 dungeons also suck compared to WoW dungeons, so it doesn't really change anything. 

wow dungeons were fun for the first couple times but  i could do most of them while watching TV and hardly paying attention after awhile unless i was on my healer.. the pace of gw2 dungeons I can't really look away for second or ill get smoked.. to each their own i guess

I think we've established that GW2 groupings are chaotic and haphazard.  That's why they suck.  It's 5 folks playing hero ball and hoping atleast one of you isn't terrible, as opposed to a more team oriented party based system.

On top of that they become significantly easier the more guardians that are in your party, to the point where having 3+ guardians make dungeons an absolute cakewalk.  I don't recall the last time a game had a single class that so far outpaced the other classes in PvE dungeon content... And this is from a game that's whole system is designed to prevent that.

You just have been with players that do not know what they are doing. I have been on some great dungeon runs - they were very specific. They were very team oriented as people playing as individuals would not make it through without rez zerg (that is what you probably dealt with). The dungeons have been modifed to stop that now so playing in a team is important.  Guardians are underpowered actually unless you use them for healing - then they are not. Sure you have RIft, get 6 clerics (2 for tanking - 4 healing) and most of Rift dungeons were a cakewalk - they were rez zerg battles.

Originally posted by cybertrucker

So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

 

How about more than two optiosn for voting.

Anyway, GW2 doesn't have a trinity nor a hybrid system. it has dps and more dps with a bit of other junk. A hybrid system would allow you to effectively do any or a combination of activities. GW2 effectively has 3 options dps , debuffs (primarly dps), and status cures (primarly dps). 

GW2 system is not a failure of hybrid system its a failure of dps only systems.

Went through about 5 dungeons in GW2, and then quit.  Guess i'm a trinity person, or maybe i just don't like change.  Regardless, i've always played a tank (in some form) for the last 13yrs so no defined tank role = no me.  Thankfully there will always be some game somewhere that will utilize a trinity system, just like there will always be those that try to avoid it.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by cybertrucker

So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

 

How about more than two optiosn for voting.

 

Anyway, GW2 doesn't have a trinity nor a hybrid system. it has dps and more dps with a bit of other junk. A hybrid system would allow you to effectively do any or a combination of activities. GW2 effectively has 3 options dps , debuffs (primarly dps), and status cures (primarly dps). 

GW2 system is not a failure of hybrid system its a failure of dps only systems.

Trinity more closely resemble how we (as a civilization) have evolved to operate. We deisgnate specialized roles and perform those.

Rarely will you find someone who does everything, let alone does everything well.

A basic business structure has Administration (healers) who keep things up internally making sure various types of things are done properly - reports, analysis, materials, so on.

Customer Service/Accounts Executives (Tanks) who deals with clients/customers and basically are the front line against the hordes of people trying to access goods or services the company provides.

Marketing and Communications/PR (DPS) who are constantly trying to improve the company image, build a brand, and improve sales figures (higher on the meters is better).

Of course within those structures you can break it down again, but overall, that is how people function and think.

Originally posted by Rusque

Trinity more closely resemble how we (as a civilization) have evolved to operate. We deisgnate specialized roles and perform those.

Rarely will you find someone who does everything, let alone does everything well.

A basic business structure has Administration (healers) who keep things up internally making sure various types of things are done properly - reports, analysis, materials, so on.

Customer Service/Accounts Executives (Tanks) who deals with clients/customers and basically are the front line against the hordes of people trying to access goods or services the company provides.

Marketing and Communications/PR (DPS) who are constantly trying to improve the company image, build a brand, and improve sales figures (higher on the meters is better).

Of course within those structures you can break it down again, but overall, that is how people function and think.

It's pretty absurd to compare MMOs to how real life companies work.

At least use team sports, it's a better example.

In team sports, you get roles like strikers, midfielders, defenders and a goalkeeper. But those positions are defined by positioning and team tactics, not by which players use their legs and which players use baseball bats.

This is a lot more like GW2, which has fluid class roles based on position and interplay with the group, rather than WoW and other MMOs that have totally rigid roles defined entirely by gear and fixed class abilities.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by Rusque

 

 

It's pretty absurd to compare MMOs to how real life companies work.

At least use team sports, it's a better example.

In team sports, you get roles like strikers, midfielders, defenders and a goalkeeper. But those positions are defined by positioning and team tactics, not by which players use their legs and which players use baseball bats.

This is a lot more like GW2, which has fluid class roles based on position and interplay with the group, rather than WoW and other MMOs that have totally rigid roles defined entirely by gear and fixed class abilities.

I like this comparison for GW2.  Even Defense players in sports can score a goal!

to OP I like the trinity, or even debuff/buff classes (4th type)