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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do we really need totall class balance?

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103 posts found
  infiniti70

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 61

2/21/13 11:23:51 AM#61
Originally posted by BadSpock

I'd rather scrap CC all together and focus on active defense (dodging/parrying/blocking) and give more attention to LoS and Collision Detection.

CC is bad gameplay. Period.

It's a crutch for bad tactics.

In UO you had collision detection, and you also had the ability to put down walls/fields to prevent enemy movement.

GW2 has some of that too and it's my favorite part of CC in GW2. It's tactical, you can't spam it, it's useful. It's NOT a crutch for poor tactical play.

I've stopped the advance of an entire zerg cold in its tracks with walls/fields/wards and their stupid idea to funnel their entire force down a tunnel. 

I'd love to see CC as we know it removed (stuns, sleeps, on-demand knockdowns, etc.) and replace with Collision detection, active defense, and magic only used in CC for wards/fields/walls.

I think you also are talking about mini game PvP.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18786

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/21/13 11:26:05 AM#62
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

And magic > metal in fantasy.

Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

And in some systems, they wear plate. We just call them Pallies.

WoW really is an odd duck, in a whole lot of ways.

Actually, when DAOC first came out, the healing class on the Albion side wore chain mail and had a chain lighting effect that was way overpowered.  People started calling them "Chain Wizzys" however Mythic quickly nerfed them back into their "can't kill sh!t" when soloing mode.

Most high level clerics you saw running around  were power leveled by alts, especially after a year or two went by. (did it myself actually to create my buff bot)

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

2/21/13 11:26:57 AM#63
Originally posted by infiniti70
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by infiniti70

The best way to balance classes is with CC. In open world PvP, CC can work. In mini game PvP it becomes OP. Throw out mini game PvP and restore CC utility to charachter choices or specialization and balance is much less of an issue. In EQ the classes were Tank, Healer, CC...it was not a DPS centric style of play.

 

 

It is not the best way - PvE and PvP need to be in balance. That was shown in GW1 - if one skill was twaeked for PvE it bacame way OP in PvP. A balanced approach PvP/PvE is the best albeit a harder way to go.

GW1 had open world PvP?

No, but in regular PvP - please don't be dense.

 

Most gamers, well maybe not on this forum, want both PvE and PvP mix. In that instance, you need to have a balance. Just balancing for openworld PvP is fine if that is all the game has, but if it doesn't it gimps other parts of the game.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7678

Logic be damned!

2/21/13 11:27:50 AM#64
Originally posted by infiniti70
Originally posted by BadSpock

I'd rather scrap CC all together and focus on active defense (dodging/parrying/blocking) and give more attention to LoS and Collision Detection.

CC is bad gameplay. Period.

It's a crutch for bad tactics.

In UO you had collision detection, and you also had the ability to put down walls/fields to prevent enemy movement.

GW2 has some of that too and it's my favorite part of CC in GW2. It's tactical, you can't spam it, it's useful. It's NOT a crutch for poor tactical play.

I've stopped the advance of an entire zerg cold in its tracks with walls/fields/wards and their stupid idea to funnel their entire force down a tunnel. 

I'd love to see CC as we know it removed (stuns, sleeps, on-demand knockdowns, etc.) and replace with Collision detection, active defense, and magic only used in CC for wards/fields/walls.

I think you also are talking about mini game PvP.

CC is even worse in OWPvP or Battlegrounds types.

Makes Stealth and CC incredibly powerful.

Collision detection + LoS and active defense would make melee viable (where as ranged always has advantages in OWPvP) but you'd have to greatly limit the effect of healing and rely on personal active defenses instead - which IMO is a good thing as whomever has more "Pocket healers" wins in battleground/OWPvP systems that rely on traditional Trinity mechanics.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  JimmyYO

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 519

2/21/13 11:29:38 AM#65
There is no mmorpg to use as an example for class balance so we don't even know what that feels like. Every current MMO massively fails in the class balance department so tough to say we need something we've never had.
  infiniti70

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 61

2/21/13 11:37:49 AM#66
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by infiniti70
 

CC is even worse in OWPvP or Battlegrounds types.

Makes Stealth and CC incredibly powerful.

Collision detection + LoS and active defense would make melee viable (where as ranged always has advantages in OWPvP) but you'd have to greatly limit the effect of healing and rely on personal active defenses instead - which IMO is a good thing as whomever has more "Pocket healers" wins in battleground/OWPvP systems that rely on traditional Trinity mechanics.

Now you are talking combat mechanics, which is fine. I agree with you on collision detection, but I also think all combat actions should strike everyone, friend or foe, in path of strikes. I also believe all healing should be hands on and out of combat. Healing from way off is unrealistic to me, just as swinging a sword miraculously through a crowd only to hit a certain target.

CC as a means to control encounters and survivability is a viable playstyle all by itself. It is only when it does not break on dmg or only effects foes it becomes OP. if a snare mechanic is used, it snares boith friend and foe. If your "wall" goes up it stops everyone from passing. Stunning and beating on someone is not what I am talking about.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7678

Logic be damned!

2/21/13 11:49:13 AM#67
Originally posted by infiniti70

Now you are talking combat mechanics, which is fine. I agree with you on collision detection, but I also think all combat actions should strike everyone, friend or foe, in path of strikes. I also believe all healing should be hands on and out of combat. Healing from way off is unrealistic to me, just as swinging a sword miraculously through a crowd only to hit a certain target.

CC as a means to control encounters and survivability is a viable playstyle all by itself. It is only when it does not break on dmg or only effects foes it becomes OP. if a snare mechanic is used, it snares boith friend and foe. If your "wall" goes up it stops everyone from passing. Stunning and beating on someone is not what I am talking about.

I agree entirely.

But at the same time, it's hard to really "aim" attacks in MMO combat unless you are using a FPS like system, but that creates all kinds of other problems.

I think a system in which magical or physical AoE attacks would strike friend and foe alike is easily doable, but you wouldn't need to make every single-target swing/strike check for contact across all points of the animation.

And I don't think you'd need a FPS style system to try and "aim" a ranged or magical attack over an allies shoulder to hit any enemy, you could do it with more generic hit boxes just as easily.

Just like you could do active blocking of projectiles with a shield.

I like how GW2 does active defensive skills, you hit a button and for a few short seconds if anyone attacks you, you block/counter/etc.

Makes it easier to do in a network environment due to latency/lag, and requires intelligent decision making/player skill.

I've always thought a slightly slowed-down combat system that was in essence a game of rock-paper-scissors every "turn" where you had a full range of both offensive and defensive abilities and combos/counters etc. more like a slower paced fighting game would be perfect for a MMO.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  infiniti70

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 61

2/21/13 12:03:30 PM#68

I am not a developer, but I do not think it would be that difficult to have a swing radius shown on screen for melee, while giving a thrust option (at reduced dmg) for more precision. We already see this in GW2 where strikes hit multiple foes based on weapon range. Would definately remove a lot of zerging.

Range attacks simply being a line shooting froward that can be adjusted for trajectory (lob over freinds). Agree, it would slow combat down and require more coordination), but I think that is a good thing.

I do not think our thoughts are off too much on CC, we both want it to be tatical. If all actions were based on a stat like stamina and CC took a heavy toll, then I think it would work well and be a very tactical part of any encounter.

Sop I still believe CC is a great method of class balance, paticularly is that skill sets offsets DPS and Heals...where most crys of imbalance come from.

 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18786

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/21/13 12:54:14 PM#69
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by infiniti70
Originally posted by BadSpock

I'd rather scrap CC all together and focus on active defense (dodging/parrying/blocking) and give more attention to LoS and Collision Detection.

CC is bad gameplay. Period.

It's a crutch for bad tactics.

In UO you had collision detection, and you also had the ability to put down walls/fields to prevent enemy movement.

GW2 has some of that too and it's my favorite part of CC in GW2. It's tactical, you can't spam it, it's useful. It's NOT a crutch for poor tactical play.

I've stopped the advance of an entire zerg cold in its tracks with walls/fields/wards and their stupid idea to funnel their entire force down a tunnel. 

I'd love to see CC as we know it removed (stuns, sleeps, on-demand knockdowns, etc.) and replace with Collision detection, active defense, and magic only used in CC for wards/fields/walls.

I think you also are talking about mini game PvP.

CC is even worse in OWPvP or Battlegrounds types.

Makes Stealth and CC incredibly powerful.

Collision detection + LoS and active defense would make melee viable (where as ranged always has advantages in OWPvP) but you'd have to greatly limit the effect of healing and rely on personal active defenses instead - which IMO is a good thing as whomever has more "Pocket healers" wins in battleground/OWPvP systems that rely on traditional Trinity mechanics.

I don't see DAOC in your gaming list, so I don't think you experienced how well CC worked in that title and in fact, it wasn't the stealthers who ruled the day, or even the zerg, but rather the efforts of a well coordinated team of one or two 8 mans who could dominate the field in open field PVP. 

The assist train ruled everything, and in fact, melee were the last to be attacked because they were so darn hard to kill, especially if any healers or other support still were in the fight.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

2/21/13 2:49:45 PM#70
I am not a fan of class balanace...The reason why is just like in life some people are good at one thing and others are good at something else...We all have strengths and weaknesses and so should our characters......Can you imagine how boring life would be if we were all balanced?......
  Quirhid

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

2/21/13 5:57:27 PM#71
Originally posted by infiniti70
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by infiniti70

The best way to balance classes is with CC. In open world PvP, CC can work. In mini game PvP it becomes OP. Throw out mini game PvP and restore CC utility to charachter choices or specialization and balance is much less of an issue. In EQ the classes were Tank, Healer, CC...it was not a DPS centric style of play.

 

 

It is not the best way - PvE and PvP need to be in balance. That was shown in GW1 - if one skill was twaeked for PvE it bacame way OP in PvP. A balanced approach PvP/PvE is the best albeit a harder way to go.

GW1 had open world PvP?

It did not. As the game matured, more and more skills had different effect/description depending in which area it was used (PvP/PvE area).

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2191

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/21/13 6:03:59 PM#72
Originally posted by cybertrucker

PnP games and older MMMOs even were loaded to bear with classes that access to certain skills, spells or abilities that made them stand out. Balance was not always the main element in class design but more depth of character that would fit lore. Some of these abilities were combat oriented some were utility in design.

These days games are all about the numbers and combat. How do the classes stack up in combat and are they balanced? Uitlity spells and effects that are used outside of combat that might give a particular class some sort of edge  in  other areas of gameplay such as making travel easier or even the ability to give long term buffs are rarely seen. And when it comes to combat abilities, balance  trumps all.

So what are peoples opinions on this. Should developers go back to the older philosophy that  character depth and game lore is just as important and bring back abilities  that others might not have access to?. Or should they continue with the trend that everything must be totally balanced, and no one class should ever have abilities that might give them an  edge?

Like most polls on this site, I find it impossible to answer.

Because there is no, 'depends' option.

Depends, is the game pve or pvp centric?

Depends on the pve design. 

Games without balance but unique characters are great, but not if the rest of the game structure demands balance. And vice-versa. 

Depends.

That's my answer.

 

  Quirhid

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

2/21/13 6:08:29 PM#73
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by BadSpock
 

CC is even worse in OWPvP or Battlegrounds types.

Makes Stealth and CC incredibly powerful.

Collision detection + LoS and active defense would make melee viable (where as ranged always has advantages in OWPvP) but you'd have to greatly limit the effect of healing and rely on personal active defenses instead - which IMO is a good thing as whomever has more "Pocket healers" wins in battleground/OWPvP systems that rely on traditional Trinity mechanics.

I don't see DAOC in your gaming list, so I don't think you experienced how well CC worked in that title and in fact, it wasn't the stealthers who ruled the day, or even the zerg, but rather the efforts of a well coordinated team of one or two 8 mans who could dominate the field in open field PVP. 

The assist train ruled everything, and in fact, melee were the last to be attacked because they were so darn hard to kill, especially if any healers or other support still were in the fight.

The key trait in open world PvP and large scale PvP is mobility. Mobility gives you map control and the ability to choose your fights; hence, you will win every fight you choose to engage. Since player population is rarely if ever managed in this type of PvP, numbers count more than individual power. If you are faster than everyone else, you can engage all the groups smaller than yours and run from groups larger than yours.

Objectives which force you to fight are still quite rare, and even then you can beat them by just bringing more friends than your enemy.

This is ofcourse a generalization but all large scale and open world PvP that I've seen have gone along those same lines. This is also why I find it so uninteresting - because it quickly devolves into this cat 'n' mouse game where people only engage in fights if they are sure to win.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 626

2/21/13 6:12:02 PM#74
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by cybertrucker

PnP games and older MMMOs even were loaded to bear with classes that access to certain skills, spells or abilities that made them stand out. Balance was not always the main element in class design but more depth of character that would fit lore. Some of these abilities were combat oriented some were utility in design.

These days games are all about the numbers and combat. How do the classes stack up in combat and are they balanced? Uitlity spells and effects that are used outside of combat that might give a particular class some sort of edge  in  other areas of gameplay such as making travel easier or even the ability to give long term buffs are rarely seen. And when it comes to combat abilities, balance  trumps all.

So what are peoples opinions on this. Should developers go back to the older philosophy that  character depth and game lore is just as important and bring back abilities  that others might not have access to?. Or should they continue with the trend that everything must be totally balanced, and no one class should ever have abilities that might give them an  edge?

Like most polls on this site, I find it impossible to answer.

Because there is no, 'depends' option.

Depends, is the game pve or pvp centric?

Depends on the pve design. 

Games without balance but unique characters are great, but not if the rest of the game structure demands balance. And vice-versa. 

Depends.

That's my answer.

 

As I think that the genre should be split into PvE games and PvP games and I would not play a PvP game my response is a little different.

PvE games should be designed around variety of classes and not balance.  Even if two classes are primarily DPS it should not matter if one does more DPS than another in one kind of encounter.  Provided that this switches depending on the type of encounter. But every class should have something usefull that only that class brings to the group.

 

  Kyleran

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Joined: 9/13/06
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2/21/13 7:02:14 PM#75
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by BadSpock
 

CC is even worse in OWPvP or Battlegrounds types.

Makes Stealth and CC incredibly powerful.

Collision detection + LoS and active defense would make melee viable (where as ranged always has advantages in OWPvP) but you'd have to greatly limit the effect of healing and rely on personal active defenses instead - which IMO is a good thing as whomever has more "Pocket healers" wins in battleground/OWPvP systems that rely on traditional Trinity mechanics.

I don't see DAOC in your gaming list, so I don't think you experienced how well CC worked in that title and in fact, it wasn't the stealthers who ruled the day, or even the zerg, but rather the efforts of a well coordinated team of one or two 8 mans who could dominate the field in open field PVP. 

The assist train ruled everything, and in fact, melee were the last to be attacked because they were so darn hard to kill, especially if any healers or other support still were in the fight.

The key trait in open world PvP and large scale PvP is mobility. Mobility gives you map control and the ability to choose your fights; hence, you will win every fight you choose to engage. Since player population is rarely if ever managed in this type of PvP, numbers count more than individual power. If you are faster than everyone else, you can engage all the groups smaller than yours and run from groups larger than yours.

Objectives which force you to fight are still quite rare, and even then you can beat them by just bringing more friends than your enemy.

This is ofcourse a generalization but all large scale and open world PvP that I've seen have gone along those same lines. This is also why I find it so uninteresting - because it quickly devolves into this cat 'n' mouse game where people only engage in fights if they are sure to win.

Oh, but it was a thing of beauty in DAOC  to see a couple of well coordinated 8 mans roll into the zerg of 50 and frequently prevail against them all. 

The death penalties weren't bad, and people rarely ran from a good fight, there was no real reason to.  Doesn't mean there weren't times a strategic retreat was in order, especially if you were in a stealth gang or something, but otherwise the smaller groups quite often could prevail against the many.

I've never run into anything quite like that title since then, so I can see what your saying that in most other titles it just isn't the case.

 

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  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

2/22/13 12:14:17 AM#76
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

And magic > metal in fantasy.

Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

And in some systems, they wear plate. We just call them Pallies.

WoW really is an odd duck, in a whole lot of ways.

Actually, when DAOC first came out, the healing class on the Albion side wore chain mail and had a chain lighting effect that was way overpowered.  People started calling them "Chain Wizzys" however Mythic quickly nerfed them back into their "can't kill sh!t" when soloing mode.

Most high level clerics you saw running around  were power leveled by alts, especially after a year or two went by. (did it myself actually to create my buff bot)

 

Proof? I never recalled healers having "chain lightning" spells. Healers never had any offensive damage spells. The roblem with healers was they had area effect stuns and there was no immunity timers for CC back then. The chain wizzies were Thanes.

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  Adamantine

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2/22/13 2:06:02 AM#77

Well, total class balance is of course just impossible. What is necessary is however relative balance. That means the programmers should at least try to let every class have, in the sum, a relatively balanced strength.

So the mage has few hitpoints and little defense, but they have superior damage output. While the tank has many hitpoints and much defense, but low damage output. And so on, yada, yada.

What happends if there is no balance ? Fully implemented classes do not get played anymore.

  monstermmo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/10
Posts: 1074

2/22/13 2:10:28 AM#78
I think class balancing ruins PvP. Some classes should be overpowered, hell all of them could be. Balancing PvP takes out all the fun really.

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  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1284

2/22/13 2:25:17 AM#79

poll is incredibly biased towards OP's viewpoint and as such is skewed.

 

from a game design standpoint though, it does not matter whether developers design with their lore in mind first and foremost.  there will be class and numbers balancing or their game will suffer.

  cybertrucker

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OP  2/22/13 4:27:51 AM#80
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

poll is incredibly biased towards OP's viewpoint and as such is skewed.

 

from a game design standpoint though, it does not matter whether developers design with their lore in mind first and foremost.  there will be class and numbers balancing or their game will suffer.

Actually the poll is simple and straightforward with no bias.  I did however give my opinion to go along with the poll. The poll itself was just a simple question  though.

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