Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Vesavius

I can only think it's because;

• They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
• The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
• PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other

Exactly.

PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.

It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.

PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.

I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.

I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.

Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.

GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.

The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.

Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.

If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.

Raises hand...happy poo-flinging, hill-fighting monkey here.

Rather do that than consume canned content at a rapid pace or learn the correct choreography required to complete a raid succesfully...that's PvE for you...canned an non-repeatable (except by those who enjoy reading the same book 32 times.)

I would also think twice before putting anyone down because they're having fun, or worse, assume that the only reason they're having fun is because they are a less evolved sub-category of MMO player. Glass houses and all that...

Well-designed large-scale PVP like "RvR" is repeatable because it's fun, not dependent on suckling on the teat the new content cow, and never the same twice. MMOs could and routinely do much worse than this.

Full vid for those interested.  It shows Iselin conquering a hill.

Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Vesavius

I can only think it's because;

• They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
• The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
• PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other

Exactly.

PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.

It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.

PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.

I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.

I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.

Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.

GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.

The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.

Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.

If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.

Raises hand...happy poo-flinging, hill-fighting monkey here.

Rather do that than consume canned content at a rapid pace or learn the correct choreography required to complete a raid succesfully...that's PvE for you...canned an non-repeatable (except by those who enjoy reading the same book 32 times.)

I would also think twice before putting anyone down because they're having fun, or worse, assume that the only reason they're having fun is because they are a less evolved sub-category of MMO player. Glass houses and all that...

Well-designed large-scale PVP like "RvR" is repeatable because it's fun, not dependent on suckling on the teat the new content cow, and never the same twice. MMOs could and routinely do much worse than this.

Full vid for those interested.  It shows Iselin conquering a hill.

 Ah yes. I remember that fight well. I won

Originally posted by BadSpock

PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.

Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.

If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.

That doesn't work in an MMORPG. Just look at the graveyard of PVE focused MMOs that were popular for a month, then died off due to lack of content or no 'endgame'.

Players want something that is interesting to do with their friends and characters once they are max level, and the only game that has managed to keep them interested with PVE is WoW because it has the sub numbers to pay for it.

As you stated world pvp is one of the few ways to create interesting content without astronomical costs. Zenimax thinks that using some of the ideas from DAOC will make the 'endless king of the hill' interesting for players.

The sense I get from a lot of posters here is that all they want is another 30 days and done game that is somehow going to continually produce infinite pve content with 1% of WoW's budget. Investors and devs aren't spending years and hundreds of millions to create an MMO that people will only pay a box price for and then leave. RvR is the most effective solution which is why every game tries to do it.

Originally posted by Margulis
I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP.  Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community.  So again, why opt for this route?

Its honestly for two reason, one you'll never have a major sucesful AAA mmorpg without pvp post daoc/wow, will not occur. you may get 200k subs top and trickle from there. The reason is simple no one want to do the same thing over and over, pvp is an entire differnt playign field and style. Its refreshing to pvp after pve ing for a long time... and vis versa. Well done pvp is a miracle and keeps subs and makes subs grow.

However, i do find all the talk of teso's pvp odd and the nature of it also (the basic concepts for it seem right on with what you would want however.)

Originally posted by DMKano

The game is developed by ZeniMax studio headed by ex Mythic (Dark Age of Camelot) dev Matt Firor.

So the developer has never done any of the single player elder scrolls games before, but has worked on an awesome (vanilla DAoC, I wasn't a fan of the expansions) RvR game.

Its all about the studio doing dev and what they are good at, the single player series was done by different developers studios so that fact that it was all PvE doesn't mean squat about TESO.

The lore is largely irrelevant, if Zenimax was working on StarWars, Zombie or a Muppet game they would all most likely be 3 factions with RvR.

 

This Matt Firor guy sounds like a right cunt then.

First off, this is my first post - ever - on mmorpg.com! So hey :p

Ive been following ESO for some time and played all the old (and new :p) Elder Scrolls games - I was surpised when I saw that RvR was gonna play such a huge role in the game. It hard to tell at this point if RvR will be the only or even the major part of the end-game - but for arguments sack lets say it is:

I understand why they would do this and to some extend I think its a smart move: PvE content (in a Themepark-type game) is hard to keep up to date and player go through it faster then anyone can make new (quality) content - even the behemoth World of Warcraft will see alot less activety in the last months before a major patch or expansion - and any new developer will have a very hard time making new PvE content fast enough to keep the majority of players engaged.

I have no doubt that there will be lots of good PvE content in ESO and an amazing story (if they follow the recipe from the old single player games), but after we've played through it - they need something for us to do while they make new content. 

RvR and PvP in general is alot easier to keep "interesting" (if you are into PvP that is) as the "encounters" are more varied  - because its basicly "made" by other players. Several games have tried to incorporate this into PvE through player made content (CoH, STO and others) with more or less luck - but PvP is the easist way to do it.

With this in mind RvR makes sense: All the Elder Scroll games revolve around conflicts - and with ESO the titel and the conflicts go Massive Multiplayer Online. I do hope that the main focus of the game will be PvE and the story with Molag Bal as the main antagonist will lead to epic raids and fights- but if the RvR part is done right - im sure ill spent just as much time doing that while waiting for the next patch.

TL:DR: Themepark MMOs based on PvE will run out of content - hence RvR can fill the gaps while we wait for more PvE.

I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination. As others have mentioned, myself included, it just looks like Matt Frior wanted to do a DAOC2 game, got the ES IP and ran with it with no attention to what an ES MMO could be great at.

Faction locked races are a design limitation and if you actually sit down and really look at how you could have good PvP without doing it the options open up vastly. Keep all the good stuff about ES, keep all the good stuff about 3 faction RvR and just get rid of all the crap stuff that has lots of fans up in arms. It all stems from someone stubbonly sticking to how it was done in DAOC without updating it for now and TESO.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination.

PvP is a gap filler? You sure?

I'd hate to be a game like Planetside2, GW2, Rift, or WoW right now. Someone should have told them that large portions of their games are unimaginative gap fillers, and that clearly only PvE counts when you're designing an MMO. Bummer for them.

I wouldn't say gap filler, more like another option for people to do.  An mmo is a gathering for people with different tastes.  As far as pve goes gw2 is doing factal dungeons. Neverwinter is going to have player made content.  There are things to do besides just rvr.

It concerns me ESO is so focused on rvr to the point the game is being built around it. 

The game sounds pretty fun but I wish they would have bought the DaoC license from EA and made the game into DaoC2 instead, now they will make the fans of the original game dissapointed. Or they could have made a new IP for that matter, or licensed some IP better fit for this type of game.

Firor is not bad but he is the wrong person to turn ES into a MMO. ES have been about exploration since Daggerfall and the DaoC model is just too limited for that.

Originally posted by Loke666

The game sounds pretty fun but I wish they would have bought the DaoC license from EA and made the game into DaoC2 instead, now they will make the fans of the original game dissapointed. Or they could have made a new IP for that matter, or licensed some IP better fit for this type of game.

Firor is not bad but he is the wrong person to turn ES into a MMO. ES have been about exploration since Daggerfall and the DaoC model is just too limited for that.

I know plenty of fans excited for the MM Oversion because the game as designed has the best of 2 worlds.  The best aspects of the Elder Scrolls Series and the best aspects of DAoC tied up into a nice neat little package.

And to think this is going on what little stuff we know, there are tons of new information that is yet to come.

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Maelwydd

I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination.

PvP is a gap filler? You sure?

I'd hate to be a game like Planetside2, GW2, Rift, or WoW right now. Someone should have told them that large portions of their games are unimaginative gap fillers, and that clearly only PvE counts when you're designing an MMO. Bummer for them.

 

For 3 out of 4 of those games, most players are there for pve.  That 1 game that the majority of people are there for pvp doesn't have pve.  Guess which game is least popular on the list, belolw even the ailing Rift.  Yep, the one without pve.

Unless a game is designed from the ground up for pvp with pve resource competition the pvp will always be a side-sport gap filler.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Loke666

The game sounds pretty fun but I wish they would have bought the DaoC license from EA and made the game into DaoC2 instead, now they will make the fans of the original game dissapointed. Or they could have made a new IP for that matter, or licensed some IP better fit for this type of game.

Firor is not bad but he is the wrong person to turn ES into a MMO. ES have been about exploration since Daggerfall and the DaoC model is just too limited for that.

I know plenty of fans excited for the MM Oversion because the game as designed has the best of 2 worlds.  The best aspects of the Elder Scrolls Series and the best aspects of DAoC tied up into a nice neat little package.

And to think this is going on what little stuff we know, there are tons of new information that is yet to come.

"The best of 2 worlds" rarely works out, exploration PvE and massive PvP are hard to mix in the same game. But it will be interesting to see how they succeded of course.

I still think they should have turned this game into DaoC2 instead though.

Originally posted by Ryowulf

I wouldn't say gap filler, more like another option for people to do.  An mmo is a gathering for people with different tastes.  As far as pve goes gw2 is doing factal dungeons. Neverwinter is going to have player made content.  There are things to do besides just rvr.

It concerns me ESO is so focused on rvr to the point the game is being built around it. 

 

I agree, not as much a gap filler as another thing to do - saying its a gap filler implies that its "not fun" or just something to pass time with (which it could be argued any video game is), but if done right RvR can be fun, and even if I prefer quality PvE, id rather have quality RvR then bad PvE - and if that means I have to do more quality RvR while I wait for the quality PvE Ill happily do so.

Rushed PvE content is killing games I cant count the number of times ive leveled to max level and had a blast, only to find that the endgame was bad, none-exsisting or lacking - SWTOR and GW2 are the latest exampels for me. GW2 had RvR to keep me playing longer while waiting for new content - but imo it wasnt quality RvR - due to small maps, lots of bugs, latency issues and the neverending resets, free transfers and no factions.

MMOs could take a page from the Action MMOs such as diablo and the new Path of Exile - random generated loot keep things interesting longer - make instances and raids have a better chance to get good results (and higher drop rate/massive drops) - and the complexity in character development in Path of Exile helps alot (lots of viable specs). The game itself is so/so - but character development and random loot keeps people coming back.

I wouldnt say im concerned - but I hope they do it right.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by Maelwydd

I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination.

PvP is a gap filler? You sure?

I'd hate to be a game like Planetside2, GW2, Rift, or WoW right now. Someone should have told them that large portions of their games are unimaginative gap fillers, and that clearly only PvE counts when you're designing an MMO. Bummer for them.

 

For 3 out of 4 of those games, most players are there for pve.  That 1 game that the majority of people are there for pvp doesn't have pve.  Guess which game is least popular on the list, belolw even the ailing Rift.  Yep, the one without pve.

Unless a game is designed from the ground up for pvp with pve resource competition the pvp will always be a side-sport gap filler.

You're wrong. Or you're being intentionally ignorant.

If we're talking about a game like SWTOR, then I can see PvP being labelled as a gap filler. It's barely there, and done so poorly that you really can't consider it a major focus of the game. However PvP is a major feature of all of the games I listed above. Major features =\= gap fillers.

Popularity of games that utilize PvP more than others is also meaningless in this debate. Popularity can definitely be used to measure success based on that feature, but does nothing to define the feature itself and it's relevance to the game.

So, there's no need to be dismissive of it just because it's not something that you enjoy. For you, perhaps PvP truly is just a 'gap filler', regardless of the game. I can say that I feel the same way about dungeons and raiding. However I know better than to brazenly label them something that they're not.

Originally posted by sapphen

 

SWTOR didn't fail that hard...

Thanks for the "lulz".

I don't know where you are from (what planet) but SWTOR is clearly one of the biggest fail of thoz last 10 years... I'm not going to throw random numbers that you would use and twist...

The only success SWTOR achieved was to sell millions of boxes... and then drive every hardcore PvEr out of the game within a month, PvPer within 2, and semi-hardcores left after patch 1.2 .

It's a free2get-scammed cheap wannabe-wow-clone.

EDIT : to stay in topic :

Wait and see FFS poeples... old school MMOs like most of us loved 'em were those well mixing PvE and PvP. Not those focusing on ONE side.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Loke666

The game sounds pretty fun but I wish they would have bought the DaoC license from EA and made the game into DaoC2 instead, now they will make the fans of the original game dissapointed. Or they could have made a new IP for that matter, or licensed some IP better fit for this type of game.

Firor is not bad but he is the wrong person to turn ES into a MMO. ES have been about exploration since Daggerfall and the DaoC model is just too limited for that.

I know plenty of fans excited for the MM Oversion because the game as designed has the best of 2 worlds.  The best aspects of the Elder Scrolls Series and the best aspects of DAoC tied up into a nice neat little package.

And to think this is going on what little stuff we know, there are tons of new information that is yet to come.

"The best of 2 worlds" rarely works out, exploration PvE and massive PvP are hard to mix in the same game. But it will be interesting to see how they succeded of course.

I still think they should have turned this game into DaoC2 instead though.

Tell that to World of Warcraft!

game set and match.

Originally posted by Margulis
This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  

Because the series was single player? And now this is a multiplayer game? Last time I checked, its pretty hard for a single player game to be anything but PvE focused.

A big part of multiplayer games is player vs player. It is content that basically keeps the game fresh.  Going for a PvE focused game is a losing battle, you will never keep up with the content locusts. Well designed PvP will keep players around.