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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do we really need totall class balance?

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103 posts found
  Aeonblades

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 1111

2/21/13 10:06:51 AM#41
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Briansho
Who doesn't like watching a priest/healer take on 4 mobs in full cloth armor and a wand?

Hardc0 mang, hardc0. The mobs snicker at the guy chasing them in the dress, right up until the Wand of Trivial Damage comes out! "Oh Noes, iz a Wand", they sez, then raise their hands and hand over the lewt.

Ummm...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_09-1_TXF3BQ/TJV17UCLanI/AAAAAAAAAMI/-fRCKZjYOKM/s1600/Gandalf-Glamdring.png

Dude's like.. blowing up Orcs and Goblins and Balrogs left and right.

Hahaha, I love it, great post. Anyone remember when they added Warlocks to DAoC, reminds me of gandalf.

Currently Playing: Rift, ESO, EQ1, Various betas
Have played: You name it.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/21/13 10:07:40 AM#42
Originally posted by BadSpock
Ummm...

 

Dude's like.. blowing up Orcs and Goblins and Balrogs left and right.

Ummmm...Dude's not a Priest. And according to his GF, that ain't exactly no wand.

(Wizards r mad op yo.)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

2/21/13 10:09:12 AM#43

Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

And magic > metal in fantasy.

Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

In a MMO, everyone gets to the be hero so everyone gets to be OP... which means no one is really OP and everyone kind of sucks.

Now Playing: D3:RoS
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/21/13 10:10:16 AM#44
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

And magic > metal in fantasy.

Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

And in some systems, they wear plate. We just call them Pallies.

WoW really is an odd duck, in a whole lot of ways.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Lovely_Laly

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 736

game is also real

2/21/13 10:10:38 AM#45


Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly play class you think to be OP, be happy!
And if it doesn't work out, there's always a faction, server, race, class transfer ($Kaching$ for Uncle Bliz).

Too bad skill transfers haven't made the list yet.



LOL I meant if you don't like said class - delete char and restart.
Beside I think you need to try them all or most (no need to do these which has no appeal at all) before pick up main class to play.

try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

2/21/13 10:12:58 AM#46
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah, I mean armor is only useful when you get hit by something. Pro-tip - Don't get hit, don't need armor.

And magic > metal in fantasy.

Hence, class balance is ridiculous is MMOs because everyone can choose to be a wizard type.

But wizards are supposed to be VERY rare and totally OP.

And in some systems, they wear plate. We just call them Pallies.

WoW really is an odd duck, in a whole lot of ways.

Well the reason it still works in D&D is that you have what, maybe 4-6 player characters in a game max?

Reason is doesn't work in MMO is because you have hundreds/thousands/millions of players so no one gets to be special.

Magic and magic use in MMOs is mostly ridiculous and a complete joke.

 

Now Playing: D3:RoS
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Asariasha

Elite Member

Joined: 8/05/11
Posts: 117

2/21/13 10:21:28 AM#47

In my opinion, an overall balance is quite important especially when it comes to MMORPGs featuring PvP. However, I love differentiated classes and synergies between classes. Examples:

 

Lineage 2:

Orc Destroyer - Bladedancer dances + Swordsinger songs + Buffs

=> Destroyer becomes a devastating lifeleeching I stomp hordes of monsters at once machine. Benefit for the other classes: Great exp and a fun time hearing a destroyer always saying: "Oh my god! I was so close to die!" 

 

DAoC:

DAoCs classes shared the same ability pool. Abilities were a bit tweaked for certain realms and the given ability combinations to differed. Here, the fun thing in my opinion is the realm ability system. It includes powerful timed abilities. 

Albion groups featuring 2 Bunker of Faith (Old RA system) clerics were a freaking hard nut to crack. Your group was forced to adapt to the active realm ability.

 

Bottomline: Powerful unbalanced abilities spice up the gameplay, as long as everyone has got a unique super ability AND as long as the ability is set to a tough timer.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/21/13 10:21:41 AM#48
Originally posted by BadSpock

Magic and magic use in MMOs is mostly ridiculous and a complete joke.

Rember old fashioned notions of rare archwizards making a handful of magic items in their lifetime?

(As opposed to the mass production auto assembly plants required by MMOs? Why don't we get a raid together and just go after that?)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 352

2/21/13 10:23:07 AM#49

I'd love to see a system like shadowbane, where even if there is imbalance and a certain class is powerful, because of multiple layers of subclassing, you have lots and lots of permutations to explore to develop a counter to a build that may be OP.  Granted, I still want SOME balance if one class could one-shot someone.

 

Another point is that I really, really think they need to get rid of combat logs and the numbers.  Better to not let players number crunch.  By limiting how much people can min-max, they'll be forced to more qualitatively decided if a build is better than something else.

 

Just my 2 cents.

  Kendane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/11
Posts: 220

2/21/13 10:29:39 AM#50
Bah the third option was too tempting to pick. Anyways even for PvP games I don't think there should be balance in a way. I think in general it should be people need to work together in PvP as a team. If classes aren't balanced that means the warrior can help make up for what the caster is lacking in and vice versa. But maybe in general a rogue shouldn't be able to three shot a guy in full plate, and casters should have trouble with rogues, and so on. Then again, it might just be Rogue > Everything else lol.
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5366

I dare you to pin a label on me.

2/21/13 10:31:04 AM#51

Balance is crucial for a PvP games, but if the game focuses on co-op play, then balance is somewhat less important but still very important. For example, games like Dungeons and Dragons and all its videogame incarnations don't have to be all that well balanced because they don't have PvP in them. Infact D&D is extremely poorly balanced for PvP. The best team builds would almost always make heavy use of arcane spellcasters. All but lower level group builds.

Single-player-game-spellcasters are often outrageously overpowered. Especially in the late game. Not to mention, jedi in the Star Wars universe. Sometimes it is very hard to justify playing anything else, unless you're looking to make the game more challenging by playing with a handicap.

 

Game balance should always be a primary focus in design, especially if the game has PvP. Without it, the builds and metagame become homogenous even if the amount of possible builds is high. Game depth is best measured in the amount of viable builds, not in the total amount of different builds (common mistake). Balancing is about making the most out of all the available builds and making the number of viable builds as high as possible.

Good balance is essential for a deep game.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
2/21/13 10:42:47 AM#52

Balance does mean alot most of all in a game that is so heavily based on combat, which most older school games as well as table top games were trully not based as much on combat, but these older games did still have balance in varying forms with the trully overpower effects having draw backs to them (even restrictions). Yet total balance should not be the goal as that is un-realistic to attain in a game with so many variables as well as just that there will always be somethign that is going to be slightly ahead, but seeking a quasi balance where everyone is within a percentage spread of each other say within 5-10% of each other would be a fine goal that would allow for that illusion of balance, while allowing also for that depth of character an varying value to your choices in what you choose. 

 

Though i think balancing abilities, and classes solely on their number as well as output they have in quite blind, since you can balance a trouble-some ability or class by adding restrictions or additional requirements to them. Such as that if a fire ball deals too much damage instead of tweaking the damage down via it's output directly you could  increase it's cast-time, or have a secondary ability usage needed before it is usable, as this would weaken it's strength for spaming yet keep it's overall damage intact (as well as possibily lead to more stratigic play.). Also the fact that so many classes are becoming more mobile overall in games, with the fact that many times they have cast-time spells that are either completely un-used or just forgotten as they restrict this mobile style (or aabilities that have a cast time getting it completley reduced or taken out), as such actually going back to where some speccs or classes actually required you to be stationary to cast at the benefit of increased damage or even increased intruption an damage resistance while channeling/casting a spell would be intresting to see once more.

 

I woud also like to see ideas like creating more than just merely the mitigation based tanks (meat shields.) that are largely the only style used in many ways in games, and going back to having several kinds all with utilities that facilitate their style of tanking, even if that means we start seeing more spiky tanks (which you can actually adjust the mitigation tank down to make their damage intake roughly in line so that the overall end result would be the same.), while also allowing for more fresher concepts of tanking or even other roles that have become largely stale over the years. Many times i think class balance is a great idea as it allows the enjoyment of a class to be easier as people expect so much, but yet also that it harms the game at large by stamping out alot of uniqueness that leads to the im-balances , and so i say there needs to be more methods used to balance classes an abbilities in games over just tweaking output of the abilities or classes in question. 

 

One other thing is that both pvp as well as pve have almost polar oppisite desires in balance, as such they really should be treated as seperate entities in the game at large for balancing and also functality in classes.  An so i would use a dual value system in which each ability has two sets of values that are used for their abiliies, one set is used while in pve an the other in pvp, which would allow you to actually balance each ability seperately between both styles of play without un-balancing or affecting the other side. THis takes much of the pressure off the devs as a change in pvp will not affect what they have done in pve, and the reverse is true as well, and also they can fully change how a classes feels even in pvp to pve without much of a overhaul too.

  aslan132

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 271

2/21/13 10:46:02 AM#53

TL;DR    The problem is the definition of class balance has changed over the years, as the players in MMOs have changed. Before class balance was balancing the damage you output with the utility you bring. It was all about filling a ROLE. Thats why CC, tanks, and healers had lower damage than pure DPS classes, it balanced out because those classes did something a DPS couldnt. Now all of a sudden, people all want to DPS, but they still want to play those other classes. Game Designers are telling them they can "play your way", and thier way means they want it all. You want balance and meaning back in your games, then you have to have clearly defined roles for classes. If you want some CC, expect your DPS to be lower. If you want to not be squishy, expect your DPS to be lower. If you want buffs or debuffs, expect your DPS to be lower. And for goodness sakes, DONT ROLL THAT CLASS IF ITS NOT WHAT YOURE LOOKING FOR. 

 

For a specific example I will use EQ2, it has the most class choices, and used to work on the old Tiered DPS system.

So what it used to be was:

T1: Predators (Assassins/Rangers) and Sorcerers (Wizards and Warlocks)

T2: Rogues (Swashbucklers and Brigands) and Summoners (Necromancers and Conjurers)

T3: Bards (Dirges and Troubadors) and Enchanters (Illusionists and Coercers)

The reason it worked was because the T1 were pure DPS, they offered nothing to groups or raids except damage. T3 were ok with having minimal damage because they were the utility. They did 90% of all the buffs in game, and most of the crowd control too. The problem was players all started to whine about being outdamaged (6 years after launch, mind you, the old crowd was fine with the way the system worked, this all changed post 2000). So then the developers started raising the damage output of utility classes, but they had to remove the usefulness of utility, so they werent OP. Now CC doesnt work in raids at all, and very minimal usage in groups. And everyone gets buffs and regen, even if they just pop consumables. Summoners are out DPSing T1 with the new pet (shared-stat) system, and Rogues can be top tier, but it does still take some skill. Im not gonna make this longer by explaining how messed up fighters and healers are, but they were a part of the system as well. In the old days (pre-2000) these systems worked, but nowadays youll never see class balance done the right way because people all want to pew, pew, pew but they still want to play the warrior, or the cleric. 

 

To achieve balance again, developers just have to tell players if they want to kill faster or do more damage DONT ROLL A FOOKING HEALER. If you roll a wizard youre probably going to be squishy, and assassins dont make great tanks. Learn about the class before you play it, and accept that if you want to play that class, someone may have higher DPS than you, but you still bring something else to the table.

  infiniti70

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 61

2/21/13 11:00:11 AM#54

The best way to balance classes is with CC. In open world PvP, CC can work. In mini game PvP it becomes OP. Throw out mini game PvP and restore CC utility to charachter choices or specialization and balance is much less of an issue. In EQ the classes were Tank, Healer, CC...it was not a DPS centric style of play.

 

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:02:12 AM#55
Aslan

Daoc and lineage2 have more classes than EQ.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:04:13 AM#56
The best classes to be primary cc are pure cc specialists it sword and board tanks.

The worst are primary nukers / glass cannons. E.g. the wow approach.
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

2/21/13 11:05:32 AM#57
Originally posted by infiniti70

The best way to balance classes is with CC. In open world PvP, CC can work. In mini game PvP it becomes OP. Throw out mini game PvP and restore CC utility to charachter choices or specialization and balance is much less of an issue. In EQ the classes were Tank, Healer, CC...it was not a DPS centric style of play.

 

 

It is not the best way - PvE and PvP need to be in balance. That was shown in GW1 - if one skill was twaeked for PvE it bacame way OP in PvP. A balanced approach PvP/PvE is the best albeit a harder way to go.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

2/21/13 11:06:44 AM#58
Im all for unbalanced classes as long as I get to play the overpowered one and you have to play the crappy one.

"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

2/21/13 11:13:03 AM#59

I'd rather scrap CC all together and focus on active defense (dodging/parrying/blocking) and give more attention to LoS and Collision Detection.

CC is bad gameplay. Period.

It's a crutch for bad tactics.

In UO you had collision detection, and you also had the ability to put down walls/fields to prevent enemy movement.

GW2 has some of that too and it's my favorite part of CC in GW2. It's tactical, you can't spam it, it's useful. It's NOT a crutch for poor tactical play.

I've stopped the advance of an entire zerg cold in its tracks with walls/fields/wards and their stupid idea to funnel their entire force down a tunnel. 

I'd love to see CC as we know it removed (stuns, sleeps, on-demand knockdowns, etc.) and replace with Collision detection, active defense, and magic only used in CC for wards/fields/walls.

Now Playing: D3:RoS
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  infiniti70

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 61

2/21/13 11:19:52 AM#60
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by infiniti70

The best way to balance classes is with CC. In open world PvP, CC can work. In mini game PvP it becomes OP. Throw out mini game PvP and restore CC utility to charachter choices or specialization and balance is much less of an issue. In EQ the classes were Tank, Healer, CC...it was not a DPS centric style of play.

 

 

It is not the best way - PvE and PvP need to be in balance. That was shown in GW1 - if one skill was twaeked for PvE it bacame way OP in PvP. A balanced approach PvP/PvE is the best albeit a harder way to go.

GW1 had open world PvP?

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