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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Please no GCD in Camelot Unchained

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51 posts found
  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/20/13 4:13:31 PM#21

Folks,

   Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).

1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.

2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.

3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.

Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.

Mark

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/20/13 4:17:23 PM#22

How will melee be handled then? by weapon swing speed or animation or something else?

also if you make melee abilities stand you still while they animate...like aion...i will find you and DESTROY you!...it makes for terribly clunky bad melee play.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

2/20/13 4:36:22 PM#23
Originally posted by skyexile

How will melee be handled then? by weapon swing speed or animation or something else?

also if you make melee abilities stand you still while they animate...like aion...i will find you and DESTROY you!...it makes for terribly clunky bad melee play.

Calm down dude, install daoc trial and all will be clear to you my son.

  Raagnarz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 241

2/20/13 4:39:02 PM#24
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).

1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.

2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.

3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.

Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.

Mark

I agree with all of that. I personally prefer no global cooldown but have cast times on spells. I'm not a fan of instant cast unless, like in daoc, as soon as a melee hits a caster he can no longer cast. I'm not a fan of that system either. Let a caster cast, but not move while doing so, and there is no reason to have insta casts. Melee weapon styles I wouldn't consider insta spells. They have animations associated with them as well which can work as a buffer to not make them instant. But melee styles should be quicker to fire off as melee's gotta cover ground to get to a caster.

 

But all in all this is music to my ears. It means no more run at full skald speed and drive by aoe mez/root the first thing you see and win.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/20/13 4:47:31 PM#25
Originally posted by Teh_Axi

I'd rather have combat closer too vanilla WoW then DAoC snail paced combat personally.

Same here but I would also rather there be Reticule based Action Combat.  Loved DAoC but after 9 years of other MMO's I see it was really slow and boring.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/20/13 4:49:57 PM#26
Originally posted by Raagnarz
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Folks,

   Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).

1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.

2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.

3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.

Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.

Mark

I agree with all of that. I personally prefer no global cooldown but have cast times on spells. I'm not a fan of instant cast unless, like in daoc, as soon as a melee hits a caster he can no longer cast. I'm not a fan of that system either. Let a caster cast, but not move while doing so, and there is no reason to have insta casts. Melee weapon styles I wouldn't consider insta spells. They have animations associated with them as well which can work as a buffer to not make them instant. But melee styles should be quicker to fire off as melee's gotta cover ground to get to a caster.

 

But all in all this is music to my ears. It means no more run at full skald speed and drive by aoe mez/root the first thing you see and win.

I agree with Mark here.  The reason why a caster cant cast is because he actually had several long moments to get free spells of while the melee closed the distance.  Although TBH I'd rather have a action combat or a GW2 combat.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  boxsnd

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 403

2/20/13 4:58:27 PM#27
Originally posted by skyexile

How will melee be handled then? by weapon swing speed or animation or something else?

also if you make melee abilities stand you still while they animate...like aion...i will find you and DESTROY you!...it makes for terribly clunky bad melee play.

If it is like daoc:

 

cast speed will depend on base cast speed of the spell and the players' dex.You will be able to queue spells so you don't have to spam buttons. The spells feel really good and meaty when they land, especially pbaoe with a fully buffed luri :)

 

melee attack speed will depend on weapon speed + the player's quickness. Again you can queue melee styles (melee skills) and combine them (for example queue an after parry skill first and a normal attack second. If you parry the after parry skill will get used, if you don't the normal one will get used). You can move around (no skills root you in daoc, the spells just get cancelled if you move).

 

Overall it was the best/most fun combat system in any MMO I have played with an extremely high skill ceiling. I hope they just copy paste it with as few changes as possible.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/20/13 4:59:21 PM#28


Originally posted by Hokibukisa

Originally posted by skyexile How will melee be handled then? by weapon swing speed or animation or something else? also if you make melee abilities stand you still while they animate...like aion...i will find you and DESTROY you!...it makes for terribly clunky bad melee play.
Calm down dude, install daoc trial and all will be clear to you my son.

lol i did ages ago...was trying to setup key binds and couldn't get it so right click makes a and d straif, so pass on that.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2861

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

2/20/13 5:04:45 PM#29

GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/20/13 5:05:43 PM#30

It isnt a GCD issue, its a lack of sequenced attacks that is.

Anyone with a melee weapon should have chained attacks. One attack leads into another...much like in Age of Conan. Its more realistic and its smooth, can do away with GCDs as well as insta dumping...you end up with games like that because of old combat mechanics that were actually created with NON-3D games in mind, thats how OLD they are, Meridian 59, the Realm and Ultima Online HAD that kind of combat!

If game makers would just break the...chains...of the past we could actually get MMOs that arent bogged down in incredibily old ideas and game mechanics and end up with something at least CLOSE to new.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  SyrixII

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 43

2/20/13 5:37:43 PM#31
Originally posted by Purutzil

GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...

 

Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!! 

 

With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.

 

again... YAY!!!!!

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3735

RIP City of Heroes!

2/20/13 7:05:56 PM#32
Originally posted by kraiden
Originally posted by MidHealer

 

As the title says, no GCD, pretty please :)

 

Such abomination as GCD is maybe good for WoW and whatnot, but it will only ruin CU experience.

 

On the similar note, please reduce the number of instant, timed abilities - this leads only to people waiting for timers to recycle, and then dumping (almost) all of the instant abilities at once at the beginning of the fight, thus often ending the fight in the first 2 seconds.

Some instant abilities should, of course, still be implemented, but having too many of them, either as spells or as item abilities is only serving to ruin the fun of tactical fighting, what with fights being over in few seconds.

 

i for one dont want 9 spells being cast per seconds. think about it, daoc didnt have a global cooldown but every spell had a cast time and all melee abilities had a delay timer based on the weapon speed. 

But I agree with you on one point, there should be almost zero instant abilities in the game and the ones in the game should be about as powerful as rank 0 cantrips in D&D.

example 5 sec cast heal would restore 90% health. 2.5 sec cast heal would restore 30% a  2 sec cast HoT resotres 60% health over 15 sec. but a cantrip insta cast hot restores 10% health over 10 seconds.

it made me so angry when i played WoW that a mage could take you from 100% to dead and never actually STOP to cast a single spell. a game where casters didnt cast just dosent sit well with me. but having a game without global cooldowns only works for me if we use weapon delays and cast times. if you want "faster i press the button the faster i attack" then im not for that at all.

I want my pvp to be determined by what i press WHEN, not by my twitch skills.

 I remember back in the 80s in the lab when people were experimenting with game systems.  There was this day when a guy fired off a thousand abilities in a second with some code he wrote to loop an action.   Well, needless to say, a system without a timer to limit the frequency of abilities will kill a game.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/20/13 7:29:17 PM#33
Originally posted by waynejr2

 I remember back in the 80s in the lab when people were experimenting with game systems.  There was this day when a guy fired off a thousand abilities in a second with some code he wrote to loop an action.   Well, needless to say, a system without a timer to limit the frequency of abilities will kill a game.

 Unless abilities are chained instead of button mashing...GCDs were created for a weak combat design.

Isnt it time to stop making games that are nothing more than hitting button 1,2,4,5,3,1,6,2,4,5,3,1,6?

Anyone with a G-series keyboard or the like just hit a single macro button and grabs some freakin doritos as they run in a circle with their gaming mouse and oooh, once in a while may use macros 2 -8. and that is providing the combat is even decent, otherwise its only 1 or 2 macros to faceroll everything.

Unchain the genre...from old game design and create something thats actually NEW and DIFFERENT. Hell, even though Age of Conan actually had chained combat, another MMO doing it could still be called new because nobody else has done it since. Throw it in with other actual NEW game designs and make a UNIQUE game....a DaoC clone with a few ideas sure as hell isnt going to be new, just more of the same since its already been cloned by Warhammer...oh wait, thats right...Jacobs again. Sticking with the exact same theme because he actually hasnt changed dispite what he says in his posts. At least Koster made 3 vastly different games and that man is full of himself beyond belief, but he evolved his game designs.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Stiler

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/20/13 7:32:03 PM#34

Do games even need cooldowns for many skills?

I often wonder, would it not be more fun, for ht eplayer, to have all of his abilities  to not be on cooldown, but instead simply tie the skills/spells into the stamina/mana pool?

So skills that are more powerful, cost more stamina/mana, and if you try to "spam" them, after one or two you'll be exhausted and it affects your character in terms of slower speed/movement, etc.

A lot of action games use this kind of system. It allows for more player freedom (being able to make the choice to cast two higher costing abilities vs casting more lower cost onese, etc) but at the price of exerting yourself more. You have a layer of strategy to this because you have to make the choice, and it can backfire if you use an ability, miss and are left wide open because you ran out of stamina and can't protect yoruself as well.

To me getting rid of cooldowns would be interesting to see in CU if done correctly, and add a new layer of depth to combat that most mmo's haven't tried.

  Vyeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

2/20/13 7:43:05 PM#35
Originally posted by SyrixII
Originally posted by Purutzil

GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...

 

Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!! 

 

With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.

 

again... YAY!!!!!

You do understand that having spell casting speeds and such IS actually a form of GCD right? He said that there will be very few insta-cast spells meaning even without a GCD you will not be spamming skills.. In Vanguard you have a GCD but also chained skills and skills that worked instantly and off of the GCD like kick that allowed you to chain any other skill from it.. I fail to see why that idea is so frowned upon as it gives a pace to combat anyway..

You are still going to be limited on actions per minute whether by a GCD or casting timer..

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/20/13 7:56:50 PM#36


Originally posted by Vyeth

Originally posted by SyrixII

Originally posted by Purutzil GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place. It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.
Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...   Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!!    With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.   again... YAY!!!!!
You do understand that having spell casting speeds and such IS actually a form of GCD right? He said that there will be very few insta-cast spells meaning even without a GCD you will not be spamming skills.. In Vanguard you have a GCD but also chained skills and skills that worked instantly and off of the GCD like kick that allowed you to chain any other skill from it.. I fail to see why that idea is so frowned upon as it gives a pace to combat anyway..

You are still going to be limited on actions per minute whether by a GCD or casting timer..


yea, I'm really not seeing much of a difference.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

2/20/13 8:48:57 PM#37


Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Folks,

   Just poking my head in while I take a break from the Lost Levels (1 more to go). Sorry about no blog post today but here's a few things to talk/argue about in regards to this thread (and then I'm vanishing again).

1) No GCD for CU. It makes sense in some games but I don't want to have one in CU.

2) There *might* be a very limited set of instant cast spells but please keep the words "limited" and "might" in mind as you continue your discussions. I could see some spells that could be useful in non-combat situations being insta-cast but I believe we really need to limit the insta-cast spells/abilities quite heavily in the combat portion of our RvR game. No matter what, there will not be a lot of insta-cast skills in combat, that part has already been decided on. I just want to reserve the possilibility of some insta-casts for very unique combat situations and/or out of combat spell casting.

3) I also believe that we don't want a lot of players running around as fast as they can while casting spells, using abilities, etc. if we want to have a successful combat system so expect that casting & moving is not going to be a core component of the system.

Okay, back to work, Boss level here I come.

Mark


Get back to work on the game and stop wasting time on here! Wait...Im about 2 years early on this one...but in 2 years I'll be a trend setter ;) Seriously here, Im very happy with what Mark is saying here.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  SyrixII

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 43

2/20/13 10:21:09 PM#38
Originally posted by Vyeth
Originally posted by SyrixII
Originally posted by Purutzil

GCD exists to make it a more fair playing field from players in terms of latencies and also to prevent things likes macros or bots to spam skills faster then humanly possible. It exists in ANY game in some form, even a FPS game has a GCD of sorts in place.

It WILL exist, how big it is though, that depends on their design choice.

Maybe you need to go back and read about 8 or so posts above yours...

 

Mark Jacobs just posted and said CU will NOT have a GCD. That means we're probably getting combat very similar to DAOC. YAY!!!!!! 

 

With that being said, I am sure they will have a spell queue that allows you to preselect what spell will start casting once the spell you currently are casting completes. That is the latency fix for not having a GCD. It also as Mark said will indicate that we will not see any instant cast spells or combat abilities.

 

again... YAY!!!!!

You do understand that having spell casting speeds and such IS actually a form of GCD right? He said that there will be very few insta-cast spells meaning even without a GCD you will not be spamming skills.. In Vanguard you have a GCD but also chained skills and skills that worked instantly and off of the GCD like kick that allowed you to chain any other skill from it.. I fail to see why that idea is so frowned upon as it gives a pace to combat anyway..

You are still going to be limited on actions per minute whether by a GCD or casting timer..

Do you even finish reading the posts you reply to?

I plainly said almost the same thing you did, yet you act as if i have no clue. Of course i realize there will probably be no instant cast spells. I said that exact same quote. And yes, it would take a moron not understand that you can't spam spells just because there isn't a GCD. Iplayed a lot of DAOC and this sounds very similar.

 

Come on man, Quit thinking the world has lost it's mind. Some of us still have a little bit of intelligence left. I'm just uber excited about the slower more methodical playstyle that no GCD brings. I never cared for the jumping around and spamming instant spells while running into the mix of a group. I died a little bit inside when that playstyle became common.

 

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/20/13 10:38:20 PM#39

oh yea were the spells in daoc qued on the server then or just the client? if its only the client, that does nothing much to help fix latency issues.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  SyrixII

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 43

2/20/13 10:42:44 PM#40
Originally posted by skyexile

oh yea were the spells in daoc qued on the server then or just the client? if its only the client, that does nothing much to help fix latency issues.

I honestly can't answer this, but it would make little sense to queue something client side. That would make it half as useful as it should be.

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