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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Deep character build systems Poll included

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58 posts found
  tazarconan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 1022

 
OP  2/20/13 7:44:53 AM#21
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by tazarconan
Originally posted by MMOExposed
 

I ve had countless conversation with many friends about exatcly this subject.Here is the deal. All the above u mention are correct but only when u talk about a game like lets say wow. 3 talent trees few talents to pick iside the 3 trees yes,it should be very carefully designed and ballanced.

When u have a lets say huge tree with 700 talents inside with only 80 possible to pick during the lvl course its Impossible to calculate what could be the best combo of talent picks.Simply because a random combination of talents x player picked could be better vs your picks.

What u can say is that u could pick a good combo of talents that suit your tactical behavior during various combat situations or suit your playstyle better but in any case u cant calculate in huge talent trees best possible combo.You can only speculate it would favor u in some situations but as u can imagine in vast trees u cant even guess what the oppoents builds are like.The possibilities are chaotic.

Now in a case that i pvp 1v1 with a player that has a smarter build than mine bravo and grz to him.He made a smarter choise and he deserves a small advantage over me. That doesnt neceserilly gives him victory though cause during hte fight he must also use his abilities,the benefits from his specc well and also fight well. Amd since in a server or arenas,,or bgs,or open pvp exist aparently loads of ppl the chaos theory guarantees that noone will have a stronger build than the majority of players that play that game.

Conclusion: balance issues exist in mmorpgs that are using less chaotic systems with little choises from the player side. Chaos= unpredictable=impossible to calculate=completely indifferent to balance issues

P.S. One of the greatest benefits of such an advancement system completely terminates the idea go to x site and read whats the pawn x class best build.

No way does excess amount of choices make balance issues go away. I wonder what type of logic you have used to get to a conclusion like that. GW1 had well over a thousand skills, unimaginable amount of different combinations for an 8-skill skillbar, and still they had to actively maintain the balance.

Players do not just mash skills/talents together to randomly find an effective build. Usually it goes along the lines of finding an exceptionally useful skill/talent and exploiting that. Building the build around those key abilities. And thats not even the whole story; the objective plays an important role aswell. Afterall, sieges, deathmatches and capture the flags all require different builds to succeed.

I'm guessing you're not really understanding balance. If a build can gives you a "sure victory", either the game uses hard counters (which have ran out of favor recently) or the game is poorly balanced. What makes the best build the best is that it wins more times than the rest and/or has less sensible counters than the rest.

If you have ever played competitive PvP, you should know this.

Balanced games are balanced because they are designed carefully to be just that. Not because they give you many choices.

What u mean by balance?

Balance to player stats bonuses defined by your build? If yes why should we have the same stats in a huge tree, since its pratcically impossible 2 ppl to choose exactly the same talents feats traits in a supposely huge tree full of choises to be made.One of those 2 guys will make some smarter choises that will give him an edge and thats the way it should be. Unles ofc u prefer small trees thats pretty obvious whats best to pick simle by just checking the tree 10 minutes or by just visiting x site to check whats best for u then copy paste it to your toon.

Balance to players skills/moves that can be performed by players during combat? (cleavedeepwoundsmortal strike,frostbolts etc etc)? I wasnt referring to skills anwy but if that is the case yes tghe skills should be carefully designed so x skill of x class  should be equal with a similar skill of x class but thats self-meant.

If u ask me the outcome of the combat it makes sense to be decided by these factors:

1.player skill in combat

2.player build

3.Ability of the player to fight well with the build he made, using well during combat the given skills and strenghts the build he mades provide him.

Aparently u think that the benefits from the player choises in character build should be restricted so it wont give an advantage to someone. here is our disagreement.I believe they should.I believe smart choises/builds should be awarded.Only way to do this is by making huge trees aka Poe or even deeper.

As to your question i understand balance very well. I played competitive pvp in wow's arenas and rated battlegrouds vanilla+lately in high ranking positions over 4 years. It helped me uderstand free player choises in character builds is way better than what blizzard did (and other devs not just bliz), practically guiding the player on what he should choose in order not to get massacred by others in pvp taking away free will on what to pick and succesfull experimentation from players.That simply sucks.

Aparently some players prefer that included you my friend..I just dont. I prefer chaos so smart player player builds can and will be awarded.

P.s. And by the way as i stated in my previous post there is no way in huge trees to make x build that beats most speccs around.Lots of ppl will make x combo build that beats yours .Its mathematically certain.The thing is to make a build that beats as many as possible but thats a hard task.

 

  ZombieKen

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

2/20/13 7:50:29 AM#22

Voted yes.  The more build diversity the better.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  xaritscin

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/11
Posts: 329

"Antherea Online will see the light, eventually"

2/20/13 8:12:55 AM#23
voting for the 3rd option, i want to see an even complex system. the problem is that, right now, no matter what you as a dev could do, or as devs could do, people would always find a "cookie cutter build" or a flavor of the month 
  Scalpless

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1355

2/20/13 8:41:55 AM#24
Originally posted by tazarconan

Unles ofc u prefer small trees thats pretty obvious whats best to pick simle by just checking the tree 10 minutes or by just visiting x site to check whats best for u then copy paste it to your toon.

Copying a build is simple no matter how big a skill tree is.

The best skill systems aren't mathematical in nature, forcing you to choose between things like blinding an enemy and setting them on fire. That's why there's no "best" build in GW1 and the best players don't use sites with pre-made builds.

On the other hand, in PoE, Armor is mathematically better than Evasion at the moment. Because both make you take less damage, there will always be a mathematically best balance between the two. So, you either make a choice based on math instead of in-game logic or guess and hope you guess right. Most of the choices you make in the passive tree are similarly mathematical and dictated by arbitary game mechanics instead of clearly defined in-game logic.

  emikochan

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 283

Welcome to my world.

2/20/13 9:31:39 AM#25
I just wish all the numbers could be taken out sometimes, or more vague (like many of the traits in gw2 - chance to cause burning on hit, but not telling you what that % is). min-maxers ruin games for me sometimes.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

2/20/13 10:17:29 AM#26

I don't think optimizing a path with numbers is that deep. The gem skill system, OTOH, is more interesting because it allows different synergies.

I am opposed to just being complex. That is not necessarily interesting.

I am more for a large number of skills that can result in different combinations and syneries. I am still early in PoE so i don't know how well the skill gem system play out.

BTW, i am all for MMO going more like action RPGs in terms of combat, skills use, and progression.

 

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

2/26/13 2:35:07 PM#27
Originally posted by emikochan
I just wish all the numbers could be taken out sometimes, or more vague (like many of the traits in gw2 - chance to cause burning on hit, but not telling you what that % is). min-maxers ruin games for me sometimes.

I like this train of thought...

IMO deep 'numerical' character development is a distraction from the lack of depth in core gameplay - IMO common in themeparks MMOs. 

The depth of the build system in PoE (partially because of the semi-confusing graphical layout) is inconsistent with the simplistic hack 'n slash core gameplay. Of course one could always take the position that the build system becomes part of the core gameplay.

Since I prefer player driven content, PvP, sandbox type MMOs I kind of cringe at really deep build systems because they can lead to balancing challenges - unless they take the numbers out...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

2/26/13 2:44:31 PM#28
Originally posted by Ohaan

Since I prefer player driven content, PvP, sandbox type MMOs I kind of cringe at really deep build systems because they can lead to balancing challenges - unless they take the numbers out...

You can't really do that. If you take the numbers out, it is harder to show progression. Plus, theorycrafters will do experiement to backward engineer the numbers, or write addons for it.

Look at WOW. There is no health numbers of monster in the beginning. There are many add-ons for it (many are based on imperfect estimates), and then Blizz gave in and put the numbers in.

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

2/26/13 3:30:27 PM#29
Originally posted by nariusseldon

You can't really do that. If you take the numbers out, it is harder to show progression. Plus, theorycrafters will do experiement to backward engineer the numbers, or write addons for it.

Look at WOW. There is no health numbers of monster in the beginning. There are many add-ons for it (many are based on imperfect estimates), and then Blizz gave in and put the numbers in.

You are correct. Fundamentally there has to be number to make the combat systems work but the system can be kept simple.

When WoW was conceived they chose to keep racial stats non-customizable to 'keep it simple.' Gear started off with simple str, int, and dex bonuses. Eventually they added +crit, +attack power, resilience, etc. Just became stupid IMO.

  infiniti70

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/11
Posts: 61

2/26/13 4:26:04 PM#30

Simply create a system where players design their own skills. Lets be honest, there is only so many mechanics a skill can have: Dmg, range, AOE, burst vs DOT, ....

If a table was created balancing skill design vs cost, then the skill progression would be more about learning to focus in the preferred area (add larger area for AOE for example, or add counter strike to blocks).

You simply hand the reigns over to the player to design his own combat style. No best build as all features have a cost. This is pretty much skill progression, just with more freedom of how to assign the skill and letting the player create the finished product.

Add in customization of graphic effects and players not own have their own skill tree, but a unique feel to their toon.

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

2/26/13 5:11:59 PM#31
No. That skill "tree"/spiderweb is too much for anyone to care about in an MMORPG. That amount of customization is stupid to the point where it would literally be easier to just play DnD desktop style. The first time I saw that talent tree, I looked at my calendar to see that it wasn't April 1st. I honestly thought it was a joke. The fact that they reveal all possible options for you to look at is nice but the amount of options is completely overwhelming. The scale they have on how long players will be playing the game is absurd.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/26/13 5:38:39 PM#32

I'd like to see more theorycrafting minigames. Even if you don't want to make the entire character focused on complex decisions, I'd still like to see some sort of minigame (whether in crafting, a questlne, a puzzle dungeon etc) where there is a lot of deapth.

(that said, I tend to min/max what feels right for the character as much as what will give me the larger bonus so I always end up playing weak characters in these systems)

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/26/13 5:54:06 PM#33
Originally posted by infiniti70

Simply create a system where players design their own skills. Lets be honest, there is only so many mechanics a skill can have: Dmg, range, AOE, burst vs DOT, ....

Ryzom already had this.  It was as unexcitingly generic as one would expect.

On-topic, I definitely love to see new types of progression systems used by games although in this case it feels a little like complication for complication's sake and my hunch is that it's a sort of fake "depth".

What matters to me most is that a game has a lot of viable playstyles, not that the progression system necessarily has to look unapologetically complicated.  It's a little surprising someone looked at FFX's progression system and decided "You know what this needs?  Even more complication!" although I imagine PoE's system is probably a deeper implementation than FFX, which was somewhat shallow (in spite of the complexity.)

  theoneandonly

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/12
Posts: 103

Life - the one and only MMO. All the rest will FAIL!!!!

2/26/13 5:56:17 PM#34

Give it time PoE will have same 2-3 builds.

MMO community need to change, before any game with deep charecter build. People should start playing MMO for fun. Not to get best gear or get top spot in "Top 10 list".

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

2/26/13 6:20:18 PM#35
Originally posted by theoneandonly

MMO community need to change, before any game with deep charecter build. People should start playing MMO for fun. Not to get best gear or get top spot in "Top 10 list".

100% agree. Difficult to get players out of the virtual materialism mindset that society has conditioned them to. 'Need to get more stuff!'

  theoneandonly

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/12
Posts: 103

Life - the one and only MMO. All the rest will FAIL!!!!

2/26/13 6:53:13 PM#36
Originally posted by Ohaan
Originally posted by theoneandonly

MMO community need to change, before any game with deep charecter build. People should start playing MMO for fun. Not to get best gear or get top spot in "Top 10 list".

100% agree. Difficult to get players out of the virtual materialism mindset that society has conditioned them to. 'Need to get more stuff!'

All MMO nowdays done with one thought in mind.  Its easy to guess what thought it is. Kind of sad. Cause i know there r a lot of people around who enjoy real MMO.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3625

2/26/13 8:14:40 PM#37
I only played to level 5 or so in PoE and don't really remember anything epic about the character builds...It wasn't far enough I know but the game didn't exactly grab me either.
  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

2/27/13 2:50:15 AM#38

I like the idea of a tree like that but i want it to be the actual skills/spells themselves not +10% damage type choices for skills/spells you get automatically so you choose the skills that suit

- a two-handed sword, heavy armor style

- or a medium armor, sword and shield style

- or a light armor, dual wielding, illusionist school mage style

etc

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

2/27/13 2:54:25 PM#39
Originally posted by Ohaan
Originally posted by theoneandonly

MMO community need to change, before any game with deep charecter build. People should start playing MMO for fun. Not to get best gear or get top spot in "Top 10 list".

100% agree. Difficult to get players out of the virtual materialism mindset that society has conditioned them to. 'Need to get more stuff!'

100% disagree. Why do we need to get out of that?

That is human nature. We are gatherers. What is wrong with rekindle the ancient instinct for fun?

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

2/27/13 4:05:23 PM#40
Originally posted by nariusseldon

100% disagree. Why do we need to get out of that?

That is human nature. We are gatherers. What is wrong with rekindle the ancient instinct for fun?

Human nature also conditions us to crave copious amounts of salt, sugar, and fat. Does that mean we should eat every meal at McD's and  IHOP? Not from a health perspective and not if you are looking for a really great, memorable meal. Fast and processed food companies are not looking to create that memorable experience, they just want you to come back day after day and fork over your cash. They do this by appealing to basic, instinctual, human programming. It really has nothing to do with fun.

This is the same scenario with MMOs today. Every rare/epic drop or additional level is just a temporary fix that quickly wears off; you need to do the same repetitive tasks to keep those fixes coming. Players then need to play more than they want to play.

My best MMO experiences were in earlier titles where there was a deeper level of social interaction (both PvP and PvE) and less of a focus/drive to get more gear. That is why I would like to see the community change. However I doubt that it will. Developers will make more profit doing what they do now and so it will continue.

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