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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hypothesis: MMO graphics won't improve

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29 posts found
  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

 
OP  2/20/13 12:42:00 AM#1

Graphics of games seems to have stalled and outside of gamers no one really seems to care. I don't see many people upgrading their PC since frankly there's no need. I still use a 5770, that's a card from like 3 years ago and it wans't even a fast card and I can play almost any game.

Nvidia and ATI won/'t upgrade their graphics cards until the end of this year, they were supposed to bring out new cards but they won't. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Radeon-GeForce-Delay-GPU-Next-Generation,20838.html (confirmed by ATI so it's not a rumour)

Nvidia isn't even focused on PC anymore, if you watch them at CES and other events, they are constantly talking about their Tegra processors for mobiles phones and tablets, PC are quickly mentioned in between them talking about mobile devices, it's really no longer a priority for these guys, their focus is mobile, not PC.

 

Then there's the question of what drives anyone to upgrade their PC if anything at all.

You used to need to upgrade your PC for more than games, a PC from a few years ago had issues playing HD video, PC right now could do 8k video without blinking. They're powerful enough for video conferencing, for streaming video, for most graphics suites, for most scientific programs, they're GOOD ENOUGH for the majority of people. There is no real reason to want a faster PC unless you're a gamer or are using extremely demanding programs.

I can upgrade my PC but why? It can do everything I throw at it, I'm not upgrading a $1000 machine just to see slightly improved shadows in a game.

 

Then there's the next gen consoles, they aren't the big upgrades in terms of hardware everyone was anticipating, Sony and Microsoft said they will focus on content delivery and home entertainment, not just specs.

Isn't is possible that graphics simply aren't being improved at all, since it's so hard, PC are really not evolving at the same pace (I have been using PC for years, they really aren't progressing as fast as they used to).  To improve graphics you would not need twice the power as before, you now need 20 times as much power before people even notice a difference.

Don't you think it's possible that what you see now is pretty much it for a long time. Nothing seems to be driving upgrading a PC at this point.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4636

2/20/13 12:56:00 AM#2

Disagree 100% - your hypotheses completely goes against the accelerating technology advances trend, which simply shows that technology feeds on itself - better computers enable us to make better technology which in turn makes it possible to even make better technology, and so forth.

All of this is happening at an accelerated rate, look at nanotechnology today, look where it was 2 years ago, then wait and see how much of a huge leap nano tech will undergo in the next 10 years. It will be completely life changing.

Graphics will continue to improve, but it will also move to full virtual reality HUD displays, and eventually it will be directly interfaced with our visual cortex for pretty much a simulation like it was shown in the Matrix.

The graphics of the future will be amazing by todays standards because the tech will be far more advanced than what we have today.

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

 
OP  2/20/13 1:01:15 AM#3
Originally posted by DMKano

Disagree 100% - your hypotheses completely goes against the accelerating technology advances trend, which simply shows that technology feeds on itself - better computers enable us to make better technology which in turn makes it possible to even make better technology, and so forth.

I agree that the evolution in tech is exponential right now, it's going really fast, mobile phones, cameras, sensors.

But I don't think this is happening in the PC "space", I think there needs to be a market for upgrades, where is the market for a faster PC right now outside of games? A faster PC in the past offered many benefits, it made everything faster, it allowed multitasking and HD video, less lag, faster downloads etc. We have all that, I can run anything I want on my PC and it's 3 years old, it's still extremely fast, it can do 4k video, it can do graphics programs, it can do multitasking, it can do 40 tabs in firefox.

Why do I need a new PC outside of gaming? Where is the market that drives this when my 3 year old PC can do 99% I throw at it.

To improve graphics you need a lot of people upgrading their PC, not just a few hardcore gamers, you need to have a driving force of continous upgrades of non-gamers that fuel the desire to have faster PC. It can't depend on PC gaming.

  Djildjamesh

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/11
Posts: 404

2/20/13 1:46:13 AM#4

I agree to some extend. My 6 year old PC can play any game still on medium at least (granted it was a good PC back in the day).

 

But then again in the last 5 years we did see some major improvements gfx wise.

Just think:

EQ2 > WoW > LOTR > AION > SW:TOR > Tera / GW2

they are all improvements of one another. and these games came to be in like the last 10 years only :)

  sanshi44

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1040

2/20/13 2:00:17 AM#5
It could be posible that major companies see it being a disadvantage atm to make there games with high graphic, It would mean people would need to upgrade there PC to play them and some people wont do that s othey wont play the game see that games themselfs well MMORPGs havant changed mmuch in the last 7 years or so there no need to move to a new graphical game that plays the same as the one your playing now just fine. It most likly you will see more improvments in technology when the markets moves out of making the same game over and over reskinned. 2013/2014 seems to be the years of the sandbox so you may see a improvments to graphics then because newer games would differ from the older games because people will wanna give them a try and it seems to me that the new enginines cming out will be best in makking sandbox which allows for better graphics aswell, so devs will be using these newer engines to make there sandboxes so interm they will most likly being useing the better graphics which will then lead to people upgrading there PCs.
  User Deleted
2/20/13 2:10:53 AM#6
Originally posted by Djildjamesh
...

Just think:

EQ2 > WoW > LOTR > AION > SW:TOR > Tera / GW2

they are all improvements of one another. and these games came to be in like the last 10 years only :)

 

I'd find a spot in there for AOC somewhere.  On the Inde developer forum I used to hang out on, AOC received a lot of praise for how far it raised the graphics bar at the time.

 

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1270

2/20/13 2:11:39 AM#7

Graphics aren't improving for several reasons:

1) Consoles. This is more of a SP game problem, but most games are multiplatform and the current gen is OLD

2) Budget. Making cutting-edge games is really expensive nowadays.

3) Need. 1080p and 60/120 FPS are all you need on a normal monitor.

These problems could be solved by:

1) New gen. It's unlikely to improve things dramatically, but it'll probably give consoles some new stuff like DX10 features.

2) Procedural generation and better pre-made tools. Procedurally generated grass and trees are already common, but I'd like to see some generated textures and maybe even geometry. Pre-made tools have already made some things like facial expressions much easier and cheaper for the average devs.

3) New toys. 3D VR glasses don't seem that far off, for example. Not much has happened on this front lately, but people always invent something.

  Zeus.CM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1791

www.croatian-maniacs.com

2/20/13 2:15:10 AM#8

Graphics will improve, that's not the question. The question is how fast? My opinion is that graphics in MMOs are improving year by year but at much slower rate than single player PC games/or FPS multiplayer.

Let's compare Crysis from 2007 (little over 5 years ago), that kind of graphics we won't see in mmorpgs for at least 3-5 years. So my hypotesis is that MMO graphics are ~8 years behind PC top quality gfx games, but are slowly progressing.

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4050

2/20/13 2:17:59 AM#9

OP is wrong..

 

Sure some MMOs stick with cartoon graphics as they are trying to find otu what made wow so popular so they cna get ome of the pie..

 

But games like AOC(with engine updates), TSW, The latest final fantasy, Entropia Universe, Archeage any of these with high to max settings would make your little 5770 cry.. lets not even start with single player games.. now sure you could run them fine with lower settings LOL but thats not the point, well not for me anyway I like to run games maxed out and run them with good fps anything getting close to 30fps becomes very choppy.. its the reason i have to upgrade from dual ati 6850s to a single Nvidia 670.. the difference was like night and day with maxed otu settings in TSW and a ton of single player games..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  dadante666

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 399

you stop laughing when hear the same joke ,but always cry for the same thing...

2/20/13 2:26:37 AM#10

lol funny thing he mention about nvdia not care about pc  LOL and tell me what is the next geforce gtx titan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_xgeOZrnJI

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

2/20/13 2:28:42 AM#11

Graphics of MMOs are ever-improving.

GW2 looks better than 99% of single player games.

The distortion and transparency special effects are completely insane, and the character models actually look better than those in Skyrim imo.

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4050

2/20/13 2:34:54 AM#12
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Graphics of MMOs are ever-improving.

GW2 looks better than 99% of single player games.

The distortion and transparency special effects are completely insane, and the character models actually look better than those in Skyrim imo.

Nah even maxed out GW2 does not come close to a game designed to take advantage of PC hardware.. sure its comparable to some console ports but thats it. Skyrim being a console port was not really that amazing they used a lot of cheap tricks to make it look good..

Last time i played GW2 it did not use any DX11 features or anything, even the terrain texters where not exactly the best still it did look better than the majority of the MMORPGs that have come out over the last few years.

 

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1270

2/20/13 2:40:22 AM#13
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Graphics of MMOs are ever-improving.

GW2 looks better than 99% of single player games.

The distortion and transparency special effects are completely insane, and the character models actually look better than those in Skyrim imo.

Skyrim is a console port. The Witcher 2 would be a better comparison and GW2 doesn't look nearly as good. It has some awesome post-processing effects, but its character models are full of visible polygons and blurry textures when zoomed in. Not to mention some textures are really low-res.

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/12/the-witcher-2-interview/witcher2.jpg

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/ve3d/images/08/74/87427_witcher2_2011-05-03_23-36-50-63.jpg

GW2 looks great, but not because it's technically advanced.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1875

2/20/13 2:51:56 AM#14

I know I upgrade my graphic card a bunch of time for gaming.

I know the spec is definately getting higher and higher.  For example firefall that game have quite a high minimum requirement for graphic card.

But I think the buttom line is developer know they'll loss a bunch of potential customer if they keep pushing the system requirement.  So there is a balance involved.

And I think someone have said it before, good graphic =/= technically advanced. 

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

2/20/13 2:55:11 AM#15

MMO graphics have always been 3-4 years after FPS graphics, which of course makes sense since MMOs usually takes 5 years to make while FPS games often are made in a year or 2.

Which of course means that MMO gamers can wait with buying a new computer or upgrade for 5 years while FPS gamers need to upgrade twice so many times if they want to run graphics high.

Nothing new here, computers will still evolve at about the same speed.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

2/20/13 2:58:31 AM#16
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Graphics of MMOs are ever-improving.

GW2 looks better than 99% of single player games.

The distortion and transparency special effects are completely insane, and the character models actually look better than those in Skyrim imo.

Nah even maxed out GW2 does not come close to a game designed to take advantage of PC hardware.. sure its comparable to some console ports but thats it. Skyrim being a console port was not really that amazing they used a lot of cheap tricks to make it look good..

Last time i played GW2 it did not use any DX11 features or anything, even the terrain texters where not exactly the best still it did look better than the majority of the MMORPGs that have come out over the last few years.

I think it is a lot as well to do with the fact that RPGs rarely have that much focus on graphics. Dragon age 1 & 2 hardly have that good graphics either, but if you compare GW2 to a FPS game the graphics isnt that great.

GW2s looks is also a lot more great art than amazing effects and high poly count.

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

2/20/13 3:02:58 AM#17
A quick look over recent threads shows a gent who shared a modded skyrim that looked breath taking and made a gaming rig beg for mercy at about 10fps
  Warmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 2233

2/20/13 3:07:55 AM#18

MMO graphics will have gradual improvements.  There's no denying the improvements over ther the last 10+ years.  But they definitely will not make leaps like FPS games do (as someone earlier mentioned).

GW2 looks pretty decent, and I attribute that more to a visually well designed and implemented game than the big bells and whistles you'll see in a big-name FPS title.  It's also not good to compare GW2 looking better than a PC SPRPG like Skyrim.  Skyrim is a console port, but graphics wise, was severely hindered by being a console port.  Why do you think Betheseda felt a need to release free HD packs for the PC platform?  Why do you think there's so many HD texture packs for basic game textures such as the cities, terrain, and even foliage?  Why did fans have to implement things like lighting game effects such as ENB?  Because vanilla Skyrim on PC was held back due to the cross-platform development, as if it was tied down with a ball and chain.

Even an eye-pleasing title like TERA you can tell is not cutting edge graphics compared to, say, Battlefield 3 on the PC.

Still, GW2 and TERA are done visually well, and showcase a gradual improvement in graphics.  I think it will keeep on, but not in very noticeable leaps.

Edit to add:  Something I want to put in on a related note to graphics, upgrades, etc.  One of the problems, IMO, that PC gaming had years earlier was the very nature of gaming pushing so hard on hardware and upgrades that it turned people from the platform.  Upgrading was alot more constant, and therefore more expensive.  At least that's what I got from some friends who stopped PC gaming a while back.

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/20/13 4:42:45 AM#19
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Nvidia and ATI won/'t upgrade their graphics cards until the end of this year, they were supposed to bring out new cards but they won't.

Nvidia isn't even focused on PC anymore

it's really no longer a priority for these guys

o rly? :)

http://blog.gsmarena.com/nvidia-launches-gtx-titan-a-powerful-graphic-card-priced-at-1000/

 

Even if that GTX Titan wasn't coming out, video card tech doesn't stop with a GPU release. eVGA, HIS, XFX and other companies are constantly evolving the tech around the GPUs and offering higher performance boards. In regards to your article, what they left out was that AMD said we can expect to see some new 7000-series GPUs released during the first half of the year. 

Source: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2028408/amd-to-release-new-radeon-hd-8000-graphics-cards-in-2013.html

 

 

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/20/13 5:24:02 AM#20
Of course mmo graphics improve over time

Just compare planetside 2 to planetside 1
Eq2 to EQ
Gw2 to gw1
Tsw to Ao

Etc...
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