However, it's not impossible to merge genres. If handled correctly, you can create a themepark/sandbox hybrid - and appeal to both audiences. You would need to create rules for PvP that allowed for casual/mainstream gamers to avoid it - and you would need to please the hardcore full loot PvP crowd. You can do that by creating a "neutral" faction that mainstream players could join - and they could just do consensual PvP. The same goes for the economy. You'd need to create a world where sandboxers could create their own economy - and yet not negatively affect the mainstreamers. Conveniently, this could also work with a neutral faction and an AI/NPC driven economy on the side.

The "mainstream" player doesn't dislike PVP, they dislike only to be ganked while defenseless. In my experience with online games, i think that more than 80% of the players like PVP, but a part of these don't  tolerate to be exposed to it when is vulnerable (Ex: weak , distracted or outnumbered).  These part (what is a vocal minory) want only "consensual PVP", because they see PVP only as a mere "attraction" or option of distraction instead of the main way of the players struggle by the mmo rewards in a sandbox.

Create 2 separated economies (Ex: craft and loot oriented) won't works, because necessarily 1 will dominate (the easier and faster way to obtain itens, that normaly is the loot). 

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by DKLond

Won't happen.

AAA is about budget, and no publisher is going to fund a sandbox title with major money. The mainstream audience will never accept the consequences of a true sandbox world.

However, it's not impossible to merge genres. If handled correctly, you can create a themepark/sandbox hybrid - and appeal to both audiences. You would need to create rules for PvP that allowed for casual/mainstream gamers to avoid it - and you would need to please the hardcore full loot PvP crowd. You can do that by creating a "neutral" faction that mainstream players could join - and they could just do consensual PvP. The same goes for the economy. You'd need to create a world where sandboxers could create their own economy - and yet not negatively affect the mainstreamers. Conveniently, this could also work with a neutral faction and an AI/NPC driven economy on the side.

The challenge is that you have to have THE BEST themepark features and THE BEST sandbox features to lure a big enough audience to the game.

ArcheAge seems to do this, at least partially. This is the reason I'm hoping it might succeed - but the obstacle is the Asian-oriented developers. It remains to be seen if they can truly create a game that will appeal to enough players in the west to make it worthwhile in the long run.

Funcom tried this with Anarchy Online.

WoW crowd came there and wanted themepark features ,daily quests,boss drops for everybody, cookie cutter god mode perks ,cash shop boosting,instanced PvP  etc and Funcom delivered.

it really didnt work out well.

 

"work out well" or not depends on your point of view. If you like those features, then all is well.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think if someone made a casual friendly sandbox with a medium budget it could make good money.

I don't get why sandbox mmos have to be so hardcore.

Why can't there be a mmo sandbox as approachable as minecraft or terraria.

You do understand that sandbox are very casual games? Nothing is forced on you, you can take your time, you can switch things up hourly/daily/weekly?

Sandboxes are more casual than themeparks that force you down a set path and lead you around on a leash right. Example would be SWTOR, couldnt go to another planet until all quests on the planet you currently on are finished. They force you to pvp for end game content (raids/warzones).

There is no such thing as hardcore sandboxers.

One day i want to craft, i do it. Next day i decide to go explore but end up running a few quests. The next day i do a little social interaction and group up to help someone or get help. Maybe i just want to go fishing now and relax and chat it up with the guild.  Well now we are near a pvp zone...do i join or dony i. You have a choice.

Sandbox does not equal hardcore or pvp. Only a handful of sandboxes actualy have pvp as the main theme. Games like tale of the desert has no pvp at all.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by DKLond

Won't happen.

AAA is about budget, and no publisher is going to fund a sandbox title with major money. The mainstream audience will never accept the consequences of a true sandbox world.

However, it's not impossible to merge genres. If handled correctly, you can create a themepark/sandbox hybrid - and appeal to both audiences. You would need to create rules for PvP that allowed for casual/mainstream gamers to avoid it - and you would need to please the hardcore full loot PvP crowd. You can do that by creating a "neutral" faction that mainstream players could join - and they could just do consensual PvP. The same goes for the economy. You'd need to create a world where sandboxers could create their own economy - and yet not negatively affect the mainstreamers. Conveniently, this could also work with a neutral faction and an AI/NPC driven economy on the side.

The challenge is that you have to have THE BEST themepark features and THE BEST sandbox features to lure a big enough audience to the game.

ArcheAge seems to do this, at least partially. This is the reason I'm hoping it might succeed - but the obstacle is the Asian-oriented developers. It remains to be seen if they can truly create a game that will appeal to enough players in the west to make it worthwhile in the long run.

Funcom tried this with Anarchy Online.

WoW crowd came there and wanted themepark features ,daily quests,boss drops for everybody, cookie cutter god mode perks ,cash shop boosting,instanced PvP  etc and Funcom delivered.

it really didnt work out well.

 

"work out well" or not depends on your point of view. If you like those features, then all is well.

 

http://auno.org/ao/char.php?online=1&dimension=1&offset=200

276 online,if you like those numbers ,then all is well.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Quizzical
Same as has happened in the past:  a large fraction of the players who say they want an AAA sandbox would insist that it wasn't AAA.  Another large fraction would insist that it wasn't a sandbox.  Both groups would promptly resume complaining about the lack of AAA sandboxes.

LoL, very true. :D

But you could cite a AAA mmo released in the last 10 years that can be considered sandbox?

Uncharted Waters Online

Uncharted Waters is a F2P/P2W game that wasn't even done by a AAA  MMO studio... How exactly is it AAA again?

So if F2P means a game isn't AAA, then that means SWTOR, LOTRO, Vanguard, EQ2, CO, STO, Aion, and quite a few others aren't AAA.  It's actually a subscription game in Japan, but the publisher that handles the English language version seems to think everything should be F2P.

As for the studio, Tecmo-Koei has about 30 years of game design experience (on both the Tecmo and Koei parts, if you go back to before the merger) and gets several hundred million dollars in annual revenue.  That certainly makes them smaller than EA, Blizzard, and NCsoft.  Can you think of any other studios that have made at least one MMO and are larger than that?

IF Tecmo would have gotten a better publisher and let it go as a sub based game like it is over in japan for the western audience it probably would have been cast in a different light. 

Most or all (didnt play STO or CO so I don't know about them) of those games you listed didn't start off as F2P games and had considerable backing behind them. I don't see Vanguard as a AAA game. Sure the publisher is AAA, but that doesn't really mean the game is. 

The quality of the product is what demands AAA, and if a cashshop that promotes P2W brings it off that level, then it is no longer a AAA game no matter where it came from. Its like that game Wakfu, its not AAA even though it came from SE. 

And no F2P doesn't mean it isn't AAA, but F2P + P2W does. 

And yes I can name a studio bigger than that other then the three you named. Square-Enix

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Originally posted by Quizzical
Same as has happened in the past:  a large fraction of the players who say they want an AAA sandbox would insist that it wasn't AAA.  Another large fraction would insist that it wasn't a sandbox.  Both groups would promptly resume complaining about the lack of AAA sandboxes.

LoL, very true. :D

But you could cite a AAA mmo released in the last 10 years that can be considered sandbox?

Uncharted Waters Online

Uncharted Waters is a F2P/P2W game that wasn't even done by a AAA  MMO studio... How exactly is it AAA again?

So if F2P means a game isn't AAA, then that means SWTOR, LOTRO, Vanguard, EQ2, CO, STO, Aion, and quite a few others aren't AAA.  It's actually a subscription game in Japan, but the publisher that handles the English language version seems to think everything should be F2P.

As for the studio, Tecmo-Koei has about 30 years of game design experience (on both the Tecmo and Koei parts, if you go back to before the merger) and gets several hundred million dollars in annual revenue.  That certainly makes them smaller than EA, Blizzard, and NCsoft.  Can you think of any other studios that have made at least one MMO and are larger than that?

IF Tecmo would have gotten a better publisher and let it go as a sub based game like it is over in japan for the western audience it probably would have been cast in a different light. 

Most or all (didnt play STO or CO so I don't know about them) of those games you listed didn't start off as F2P games and had considerable backing behind them. I don't see Vanguard as a AAA game. Sure the publisher is AAA, but that doesn't really mean the game is. 

The quality of the product is what demands AAA, and if a cashshop that promotes P2W brings it off that level, then it is no longer a AAA game no matter where it came from. Its like that game Wakfu, its not AAA even though it came from SE. 

And no F2P doesn't mean it isn't AAA, but F2P + P2W does. 

And yes I can name a studio bigger than that other then the three you named. Square-Enix

Wakfu is made by Ancama, not Square-Enix.  But yes, Square-Enix is bigger than Tecmo-Koei.  I had to look it up to check.

Originally posted by Quizzical
Same as has happened in the past:  a large fraction of the players who say they want an AAA sandbox would insist that it wasn't AAA.  Another large fraction would insist that it wasn't a sandbox.  Both groups would promptly resume complaining about the lack of AAA sandboxes.

qft

What would happen? If it's released by a fairly solid company, I'm sure plenty of folks would try it out, even those from the theme park camp. However, there are a few things that'll make or break it. First of all, griefing. It's going to happen, especially with the current state of the gaming community. There has a system in place to minimize griefing. Otherwise, you'll have quite a few folks quitting and it'll also discourage new players from getting into the game. This isn't a "carebear" mentality. There is a difference between me randomly killing some poor bastard I come across and leaving vs. me killing him and stabbing him in the chest every time he attempts to resurrect till he's angry to the point that he could punch a baby. If it still comes across to you as being a "carebear" then you’re probably a griefer.

There also needs to be some direction early on as some sandbox games tend to just throw you into the water without teaching you how to swim first. Then all you need is good crafting system, a robust combat system, solid PvE/PvP content, and things should go well. In my opinion, a mix of a sandbox and theme park elements would be the best route. It’s honestly why I’m interested in ArcheAge, but who knows when we’ll be seeing that game. 

What the hell am I talking about.... gaming community is fickle as hell. 

---

What would happen if a AAA sandbox mmo be released?

---

Hardcore sandbox players will say its poorly done and that they're still waiting for a real triple AAA sandbox mmo that is not tarnished by the evil themeparks.

In my opinion. There is no longer a time where MMOs of the RPG genre should be separated between sandbox and themepark. Rather to be a hybrid of both to be the 'perfect' MMO.

Instanced gaming would fade away. - People would complain that there are no dungeon finders.

Crafting and gathering actually takes time and skill - People would complain that they have to grind a lot for money.

Twitched gaming would vanish, and action combat would take over - People would complain that it's not like a mmorpg.

And lots more...

Archeage is coming. We will have a opportunity to see what will really occur in a actual scenario.

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Archeage is coming. We will have a opportunity to see what will really occur in a actual scenario.

Yes Archeage is coming.  Already here if you play in Korea.  Is it a AAA sandbox? well I am willing to grant you the AAA.  As to the sandbox, well it suits part of the audience for sandbox games .... those that like a gank fest.

A bit harsh? perhaps, but it is certainly not what I would wish to see in a sandbox game. Also how sandboxy is it to have a limited range of pre-designed houses etc to build for which you must obtain standard blueprints?

Why is it not possible for player communities to establish their own "safe zones" guarded by hired NPC's if PvP is going to be so heavily featured?  Why are the punishments for serial ganking almost a reward?

No this one is not for me or for a number of other people looking for a sandbox game.

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Archeage is coming. We will have a opportunity to see what will really occur in a actual scenario.

Yes Archeage is coming.  Already here if you play in Korea.  Is it a AAA sandbox? well I am willing to grant you the AAA.  As to the sandbox, well it suits part of the audience for sandbox games .... those that like a gank fest.

A bit harsh? perhaps, but it is certainly not what I would wish to see in a sandbox game. Also how sandboxy is it to have a limited range of pre-designed houses etc to build for which you must obtain standard blueprints?

Why is it not possible for player communities to establish their own "safe zones" guarded by hired NPC's if PvP is going to be so heavily featured?  Why are the punishments for serial ganking almost a reward?

No this one is not for me or for a number of other people looking for a sandbox game.

 I am certain you and your vast amount of other people won't be missed.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Archeage is coming. We will have a opportunity to see what will really occur in a actual scenario.

Yes Archeage is coming.  Already here if you play in Korea.  Is it a AAA sandbox? well I am willing to grant you the AAA.  As to the sandbox, well it suits part of the audience for sandbox games .... those that like a gank fest.

A bit harsh? perhaps, but it is certainly not what I would wish to see in a sandbox game. Also how sandboxy is it to have a limited range of pre-designed houses etc to build for which you must obtain standard blueprints?

Why is it not possible for player communities to establish their own "safe zones" guarded by hired NPC's if PvP is going to be so heavily featured?  Why are the punishments for serial ganking almost a reward?

No this one is not for me or for a number of other people looking for a sandbox game.

 I am certain you and your vast amount of other people won't be missed.

While I did not use the word "vast" I tend to agree with you. The only way we will be missed is if the game population declines rapidly due to too much ganking.  Might happen but probably wont.  No we will not be missed, disppointed yes but not missed.

20 million people outside the U.S. would play it, see AoW.

U.S. will say they don't like the UI and pay 60$ Teso.

A theme park wrapped in a sandbox would be ideal but will we ever see one?

Modern players are so used to theme parks they would never accept sandboxes, but the problem is worse than that. MMO's cannot now hold onto players, no matter what you intend to do sandbox or otherwise they will move on.

So I am not sure there would be time for the players in a AAA sandbox to start whining, maybe you would be left with just the sandbox fans which you may see as a good result. But AAA needs big revenue; a small fan base will not give you that.

In some ways this is like trying to sell French cuisine to kids in college, they are going to stick with their burger and fries.

What does 'AAA' mean?

Come to that, what does 'Sandbox' mean?