Originally posted by CyborWolfTK

 

These kinds of questions need polls.

 

 I agree, and support the DAOC style of stealther.

Not Op'd and not a useless gimp,

and that's exactly what they are.

 

 

Yeah thought about putting a poll up but its too easy just to click no or yes and provide no explanation.  A large % of the "No"'s to Untimed stealth like daoc have just been "stealth sucks"  "stealth is archaic" "stealth is OP". "stun lock + stealth is OP".  Basically just "i hate stealth" or "I was a stealther and they are OP" etc.  Some of the % of the no's explain why they feel that way, but most are just flat out No's with very minimal explanation. 

So I wanted people to write their opinions as opposed to just clicking no on something.  What I've found from this thread/discussion is basically a lot (keep in mind i said a lot, not all) of the people that don't like un-timed stealth fall into two categories:  They just hate stealth and provide no explanation OR they hate stealth in conjunction with some skill that makes them feel its unfair. (IE its unfair cuz this guy can attack me while he's invisible and its not fair).  Well what the guy really might hate is the crit shot, the stun, or some other skills they dont like(I've told people don't include wow stunlocks cuz yes its lame and this is strictly pointed at DAOC).

I've tried to point out that stealth in and of itself doesn't kill people.  Some guys have said they dont like stealth but feel its necessary etc.  Well, in closing, we have had a ton of great replies from both parties, some of whom had good feedback so please make a full readthrough.  But I wanted to avoid raw number "i hate this", or "I love this" polling. 

(Side note:  Yes i know people have the option to do the poll AND write their opinion, but i really just wanted to use this as a forum for a lengthy discussion to find people's mentalities behind why they love/hate untimed stealth, and not use a "random sample" to come up with what should be done.  But dont get me wrong, random samples do work sometimes, but in this case, the issue was too complex to start off with a poll.  I wish there was a way that we could both poll and require a written response but we can't.  Kind of like making a poll on, do you want mez in this game.  All the mezzers would be like hell yeah, vote yes, and then there would be a majority that would be like hell no, we don't want mez. etc.  when the issue is actually deeper than yes/no.

Originally posted by Seitr
I personally hope for a DAoC style stealth system. Sure, I had my fair share of frustrations with being killed almost instantly, but i also soloed multiple Infs with my dark SM as well as with my savage without a problem.

Last time I played my Savage the only thing he could kill was himself. >_<!

I loved Dark Age stealth.

I loved how there were so many 1v1 ,2v2 ,2v1 , etc, fights in the thick of a large scale battle. I loved how a Minstral could stealth then throw a  stun or mezz , rather than attack directly. Stealth is not just for pure gankage and has a unique use for many classes, not just the SBs, Infs and NSs in Dark Age. Oh right all archers could pop stealth , fight hand to hand , not just shoot arrows as well.

I have a strong feeling when Mark starts to talk about the CC in Camelot Unchained, the threads in the forums will make this entire thread look like a paragraph. CC in Dark Age was a HUGE factor for players in large and smaller groups cancelling out many advatages 8 man groups or stealthers had. In the case of the stealthers, if they missed thier mark, were popped, or wrong place wrong time, one stun, bash or mezz was all it took to get anyone out of a situation , or kill the threat. One missed CC gave the stealther a fighting chance. No escape button for a stealther, basically a players skill and characters abilities. Such a fun system! 

CC in Camelot Unchained will be a game changer. Not Stealth. Dark Age stealth all the way!

I believe stealth has a role in RvR.

I spent many a night in Emain on my hunter, scouting and reporting enemy movement to the battlegroups. Most nights I made little to none realmpoints, died a lot, but was happy because I felt like I contributed to Midgard's war effort.

It is important to distinguish between the different archetypes and their roles:

Minstrel: Making them a stealth class caused several problems; Albion did not have a group-speed class, making most groups rely on caster-speed buffs. Second, minstrels had many tools, and after a while SoS to get away if things got rough (hunters and rangers also had something similar, but far less effective, and broke on taking damage).

Assassins: PA was a pain for everyone as it was nearly impossible to avoid, and did huge damage. It angered me as well. The key to assassin success was quick kills and fast get aways. Vanish and See Hidden was annoying for archers, and I cannot imagine the frustration of non-stealthers, but Vanish was of little use against hunters and rangers especially. What was a problem for me was the fact that assassins could switch weapons to reapply poisons right after I purged them, forcing me to save Purge until right before I used IP to make the most of it.

Archers: These classes were a mixed bag. Archers had few options beside their bow-spec, and most hunters/rangers ended up going melee-spec. Hunters' pets was more of an annoyance before they got boosted beyond what the hunter community asked for, so that was a bad decision. Archers' crit-shot ability hit hard, but required their target to stand still and not be in combat, so they usually targeted casters ( who had blade-turn and eventually brittle guards to protect them). Any shields would block the majority of arrows, and even using the Guard ability would shield a caster/healer from most arrows.

Albion stealth squads had advantage since they had access to minstrels for CC and small heals (if I recall correctly), as well as Scouts having the longest range of all bows. Hib/Mid stealth squads were usually no problem for groups.

Somone mentioned that one-shot kills did not destealth, but this was removed ( and should never have been implemented in the game in the first place).

The question is how to implement stealth to make it "fair". Few true stealthers want to be OP, but we also want a fighting chance WHEN we decide to engage. Please remember that we often circled around the area for a while in search of the optimal position.

Also, most stealthers don't want to rule the world (we would have rolled casters, if so), but we want to be a part of it. I hope there is a place for us, and remember that the stealth wars took place away from everyone else.

Imo the best stealth mechanic is that of Planetside 2, if they didn't always mess up the graphic settings so badly on it.

That mechanic without timer would be best for mmo.

Meaning: there is stealth, and there is no timer, HOWEVER it is not completely invisible especially if you are moving, just semi-transparent and makes it harder to see and untargetable (must use targetless attacks to knock it out of stealth). That's how stealth should be.

Originally posted by time007

Originally posted by CyborWolfTK

 

These kinds of questions need polls.

 

 I agree, and support the DAOC style of stealther.

Not Op'd and not a useless gimp,

and that's exactly what they are.

 

 

Yeah thought about putting a poll up but its too easy just to click no or yes and provide no explanation.  A large % of the "No"'s to Untimed stealth like daoc have just been "stealth sucks"  "stealth is archaic" "stealth is OP". "stun lock + stealth is OP".  Basically just "i hate stealth" or "I was a stealther and they are OP" etc.  Some of the % of the no's explain why they feel that way, but most are just flat out No's with very minimal explanation. 

 

So I wanted people to write their opinions as opposed to just clicking no on something.  What I've found from this thread/discussion is basically a lot (keep in mind i said a lot, not all) of the people that don't like un-timed stealth fall into two categories:  They just hate stealth and provide no explanation OR they hate stealth in conjunction with some skill that makes them feel its unfair. (IE its unfair cuz this guy can attack me while he's invisible and its not fair).  Well what the guy really might hate is the crit shot, the stun, or some other skills they dont like(I've told people don't include wow stunlocks cuz yes its lame and this is strictly pointed at DAOC).

 

I've tried to point out that stealth in and of itself doesn't kill people.  Some guys have said they dont like stealth but feel its necessary etc.  Well, in closing, we have had a ton of great replies from both parties, some of whom had good feedback so please make a full readthrough.  But I wanted to avoid raw number "i hate this", or "I love this" polling. 

 

(Side note:  Yes i know people have the option to do the poll AND write their opinion, but i really just wanted to use this as a forum for a lengthy discussion to find people's mentalities behind why they love/hate untimed stealth, and not use a "random sample" to come up with what should be done.  But dont get me wrong, random samples do work sometimes, but in this case, the issue was too complex to start off with a poll.  I wish there was a way that we could both poll and require a written response but we can't.  Kind of like making a poll on, do you want mez in this game.  All the mezzers would be like hell yeah, vote yes, and then there would be a majority that would be like hell no, we don't want mez. etc.  when the issue is actually deeper than yes/no.

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

I think I just figured out how to win this thread. Ok, some of you want "stealth" cool, every class gets the same stealth abilities. All even, we cool now?

Seriously, being stealthy, or even predator like transparent is a LONG LONG way away from being entirely invisible to the human eye. Say it out loud and tell me it sounds logical.

"When I go invisible my character can not be seen by others and I can walk up to them and attack them first."

Originally posted by Xobdnas

Seriously, being stealthy, or even predator like transparent is a LONG LONG way away from being entirely invisible to the human eye. Say it out loud and tell me it sounds logical.

 Which is basically the Planetside 2's stealth system (when it is working properly).

Originally posted by tlear

 

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

First of all. MMORPGs aren't intended to be solo, if thats what you desire than you do so at your own risk.

Risk of a stealther, risk of a duo, risk of a trio, risk of a full group, risk of a raid...killing you...see a pattern. A stealther is hardly your only worry as a solo character. 

Also Stealthers do not win all 1v1 , sure they get the surprise attack but are still very killable for non stealth classes. I've done it, ive seen it. its quite common actually. 

Stealthers are a must in CU.

Providing the fear to be alone and afk all around the place is an essential element of the game.

And the fact that people are whining about it means that it's successful.

MJ said the game is not going to be skilled based, so if there's going to be stealth in the game there's not going to be a timer.

Or atleast logic dictates so :P

Stealth characters, to me, are an important class type. I think it has been simplified and perhaps become too strong in some cases. Even in old Ultima Online though, players had either a detect hidden ability or reveal spell to find hidden in the area. As mentioned in a prior post, in the old tabletop, there were search mechanics with opposition rolls made to detect the hidden player.

Without making it too complicated, there seems that there could be an opportunity to make stealth viable but not simply an invisibility. Also, there is potentially a number of ways to make stealth something classes can overcome through skills, spells, or other game mechanics found in the old Pen and paper games to limit it but not get rid of it completely. Ultimately, I think stealth should be in the game but would love to see something creative done with it so it is not OP. The role of scout, a skirmisher, or assassin within the back ranks of the enemy to take out vital targets is something I think stealth characters should be there for and hope they are implemented here similarily. 

if Steatlh is in teh game, you need a "detect hidden" skill like UO had.

HAving classes that can pop stealth and remain hidden (even if they don't attack) need this kind  of counter balances imo.

There was just something trhilling about stealthing in UO, and having a red or someone trying to "find" you , that kind of suspense adds to the gameplay of stealth mechanics and it's sorely missing in most modern "stealth" mechanics for newer mmo's.

Originally posted by shadevice

Originally posted by tlear

 

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

First of all. MMORPGs aren't intended to be solo, if thats what you desire than you do so at your own risk.

Risk of a stealther, risk of a duo, risk of a trio, risk of a full group, risk of a raid...killing you...see a pattern. A stealther is hardly your only worry as a solo character. 

Also Stealthers do not win all 1v1 , sure they get the surprise attack but are still very killable for non stealth classes. I've done it, ive seen it. its quite common actually. 

Killing stelthers 1on1 is not an issue, issue is the assymetry of information. Beign aware of the surroundings is key for being able to solo, invisible characters destroy that, thus making them the only character that is viable solo. It is pretty simple.

Create a true stealther in a game like this and you will have 50% of people playing stealthers within few month of release.

Originally posted by tlear

Originally posted by shadevice

Originally posted by tlear

 

Which part of the Stealth destroys ability for any other class to solo did you not get?

First of all. MMORPGs aren't intended to be solo, if thats what you desire than you do so at your own risk.

Risk of a stealther, risk of a duo, risk of a trio, risk of a full group, risk of a raid...killing you...see a pattern. A stealther is hardly your only worry as a solo character. 

Also Stealthers do not win all 1v1 , sure they get the surprise attack but are still very killable for non stealth classes. I've done it, ive seen it. its quite common actually. 

Killing stelthers 1on1 is not an issue, issue is the assymetry of information. Beign aware of the surroundings is key for being able to solo, invisible characters destroy that, thus making them the only character that is viable solo. It is pretty simple.

 

Create a true stealther in a game like this and you will have 50% of people playing stealthers within few month of release.

Yea, but only the true ones stick it out as stealthers, and also, in Rock, Paper, Scissors fashion, there should be good anti-stealthers as well... Vamps anyone?

Perma-stealth Mechanics AKA Invisibility is a cop-out, for cop-out players, and players who like this mechanic usually belong to the same group of players who believe in Open World PvP which allows them to gank lowbies or harass people within 'safe' zones such as cities or quest hubs.

I have always detested this mechanic, as it doesnt involve skill, and allows players to escape when they find themselves outmatched.

The only type of stealth I would be OK with is the type which only partially covers the Character, more akin to Camoflage or the type of stealth Predator's have in the Alien Movies.

Originally posted by Kreedz

Perma-stealth Mechanics AKA Invisibility is a cop-out, for cop-out players, and players who like this mechanic usually belong to the same group of players who believe in Open World PvP which allows them to gank lowbies or harass people within 'safe' zones such as cities or quest hubs.

I have always detested this mechanic, as it doesnt involve skill, and allows players to escape when they find themselves outmatched.

 

This is just simply not true. It is in no way a cop-out and the class does take skill. Its comments like this that make me laugh IRL.

You know how many times I was ganked in DAoC frontiers trying to lvl by classes and groups that were not stealthers? More than I was by stealthers. Given the chance most will kill the enemy when they see them. You know how many RP's you get for killing lowbies? Very very little. Is it worth it to camp lowbies? NO.

Have you even played the class? Was it just too easy for you?.... How is it that it takes no skill? Maybe you could give me some tips.