From the majority of the rpg's i played one of the things i valued most is a deep in advancement terms character system .Choises that matter that give specialisation or not, loads of different possible builds so if i start a new toon i would have plenty of possible choises in what i can go after in talents feats skills etc etc

I played the last months Path of Exile. It really has a huge talent tree and the ammount of possile specs are really a lot of them.Here is the question. The vast majority of player comments despice of if they liked the game or not about that huge ammount of possible talents tochoose were positive.

So how come we dont see that deep or even deeper if possible character advancment systems in the most mmorpgs that rule the scene so far ?

I think about this everytime I play PoE. I wish the character development of a MMO was as deep and complex as PoE. In PoE, there are endless builds. In AoC, WoW, WAR, EQ2, etc etc... there are only a few.

I honestly wouldn't mind a top-view MMO that is similar to PoE - huge lands, world housing, etc.

Originally posted by craftseeker
I would respond to your poll, except I have never played PoE and have no idea what you are getting at.

A quick run-down then:

In path of exile, when you level up you gain 1 skill point to put in your passive skill tree.

This is the passive skill tree:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree

All classes share the same tree, however they start at different points on it.

As you can see, it allows for a massive amount of character building and customization.

IMO, the best part of PoE is the Keystone Skills (They're the big circles that have some drastically game changing effects). They round a character instead of stacking them, which is something that is missing in almost every game these days. If anything is to be taken from PoE, it should be the idea behind those.

Edit: I should cover the active skill system as well.

You equip skill gems into the colored sockets on your armor. Each skill is a certain color and only fits into that color of socket.

Furthermore, each skill gem levels independentally of the character. (It should be noted that you can only hot-key 7 or 8 skills.)

Also, sockets can be linked to another socket, which allows you to augment that original skill with support gems. There are even remote gems which drastically alter the skill. For example, if you equip Frost Nova (PBAoE Frost spell) and connect it to a trap support skill. The resulting spell will become a trap spell, that you throw on the ground, and triggers when enemies walk over it.

ok I will ask this, that you the OP and others give ideas for what these areas of character building you would like to see.

so far we have (with a few I added)

*Talents

*Traits

*Skills

*Feats

*Racials

*Roles

*Theme

*Stats baseline

*Faction bonus

what would you add?

Originally posted by Goatgod76
I voted yes after the explanation as I have not played PoE either. I had a very similar idea for an MMORPG I brewed up.....that will never see the light of day because I am not a millionaire.

Voted yes for the similar reasons.

I voted "Yes", but I'll tell you why you won't see an expansive skill system in any mainstream games in the future.

The majority of the players will not spec optimal builds.

World of Warcraft got rid of the Talent system altogether as a result of add-ons that would rate your spec.  Before that, players would manually check your spec before allowing you into a RAID group. A lot of players were rejected for less than optimal specs and less than optimal gear.

I already know there are many players who have completely bungled their builds in Path of Exile. Heck, I realized that I really screwed up my POE build on my Shadow, which was my first character.

I would love POE or even Syrim type skill system in an MMO, but I'm not sure how it would go over with most players.

Originally posted by azzamasin
Voted no because passive only abilities are nothing but an illusion of choice.  I'd rather have a choice of active abilities/skills and the ability to level each of those indvidually so those skills get better with use.

I should have elaborated more in my ealier post, as the skill system is exactly as you described.

You equip skill gems into the colored sockets on your armor. Each skill is a certain color and only fits into that color of socket.

Furthermore, each skill gem levels independentally of the character. (It should be noted that you can only hot-key 7 or 8 skills.)

Also, sockets can be linked to another socket, which allows you to augment that original skill with support gems. There are even remote gems which drastically alter the skill. For example, if you equip Frost Nova (PBAoE Frost spell) and connect it to a trap support skill. The resulting spell will become a trap spell, that you throw on the ground, and triggers when enemies walk over it.

Its the interwining of the passive skill tree and this active system that makes the skill system in PoE a fresh and memorable charcter building experience.

PoE's passive tree is huge, but it's also full of filler talents that would normally not even be in a skill tree, like +10 dexterity and the like. I think it's more obtuse than deep.

The best character development system I've ever seen is still the one Guild Wars 1 had. It doesn't have a huge skill tree or anything like that. Just less than attributes that go from 0 to 20 and a bunch of skills. It's simple to learn, elegant and hard to master.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

ok I will ask this, that you the OP and others give ideas for what these areas of character building you would like to see.

so far we have (with a few I added)

*Talents

*Traits

*Skills

*Feats

*Racials

*Roles

*Theme

*Stats baseline

*Faction bonus

 

 

what would you add?

The ideal would be for me 1 talent per lvl (in a really huge talent tree), 1 feat per 3 lvls, 1 trait per 10 lvlracial bonuses are welcomed if they exist in an rpg,stats i belive should be seperate and allocated manually by the player each time he lvls whereever he wants (str,,agil,dext,int,wis,con,end).

These are the musts i think .

Originally posted by Scalpless

PoE's passive tree is huge, but it's also full of filler talents that would normally not even be in a skill tree, like +10 dexterity and the like. I think it's more obtuse than deep.

The best character development system I've ever seen is still the one Guild Wars 1 had. It doesn't have a huge skill tree or anything like that. Just less than attributes that go from 0 to 20 and a bunch of skills. It's simple to learn, elegant and hard to master.

This. The passive skill tree is deceptively huge but not that deep when you look into it. A handful of key build choices here and there. And I agree with GW1 as well. I liked the quirky, MTG style skills. Very well balanced too. Good for PvP.

OP makes the classic mistake of thinking the quantity of choices is in direct relation to depth.

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by MMOExposed

ok I will ask this, that you the OP and others give ideas for what these areas of character building you would like to see.

so far we have (with a few I added)

*Talents

*Traits

*Skills

*Feats

*Racials

*Roles

*Theme

*Stats baseline

*Faction bonus

 

 

what would you add?

The ideal would be for me 1 talent per lvl (in a really huge talent tree), 1 feat per 3 lvls, 1 trait per 10 lvlracial bonuses are welcomed if they exist in an rpg,stats i belive should be seperate and allocated manually by the player each time he lvls whereever he wants (str,,agil,dext,int,wis,con,end).

These are the musts i think .

M

O

but something like that would be a nightmare to keep balanced. In order for something like that to work, there would have to be no small scale content other than solo being the only form of small scale content. Everything else would have to be large scale.

no small scale arenas, or small scale party dungeons, or else the individual class balance would show for certain builds over others. 

Can you handle that? No small scale content other than solo maybe, to mask the unbalance issue?

Originally posted by Goatgod76
I voted yes after the explanation as I have not played PoE either. I had a very similar idea for an MMORPG I brewed up.....that will never see the light of day because I am not a millionaire.

I would say that's a limiting belief because you don't have to be a millionaire to become a millionaire. You don't have to be a millionaire to write a great screenplay, novel, or pen-and-paper RPG. If you sell that RPG, someone with the finances might want to make an MMORPG out of it. 

Why don't you write out your idea, so we can read it? Better yet, why don't you make an RPG before you try to make an MMORPG? Pick up a simplified system like GURPS and let your imagination take it from there. You can see how character builds work out and make them more complex. Or make your system into an RPG format, maybe by looking at how other games have implemented their systems. There are so many possibilities.  I'd be interested to see anyone's new ideas for games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS

Playing POE has made me realise i miss a lot of old school things. Deeper character customisation and freedom, a proper punishing death penalty among others.

I messed up my first toon, a level 48 ranger who just isn't suvivable in merciless. His build was fun up till then and knowing what i do i have now rolled a frost witch. Funnily enough hitting a brick wall hasn't made me want to quit but makes me want to beat it. POE allows me to make my own mistakes and now its up to me to see if i can overcome them.

I may never reach max level but i'm having fun trying. The game isn't perfect but for an small indie company they have made a fun game that deserves to do well.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by MMOExposed

ok I will ask this, that you the OP and others give ideas for what these areas of character building you would like to see.

so far we have (with a few I added)

*Talents

*Traits

*Skills

*Feats

*Racials

*Roles

*Theme

*Stats baseline

*Faction bonus

 

 

what would you add?

The ideal would be for me 1 talent per lvl (in a really huge talent tree), 1 feat per 3 lvls, 1 trait per 10 lvlracial bonuses are welcomed if they exist in an rpg,stats i belive should be seperate and allocated manually by the player each time he lvls whereever he wants (str,,agil,dext,int,wis,con,end).

These are the musts i think .

M

 

O

 

 

but something like that would be a nightmare to keep balanced. In order for something like that to work, there would have to be no small scale content other than solo being the only form of small scale content. Everything else would have to be large scale.

 

no small scale arenas, or small scale party dungeons, or else the individual class balance would show for certain builds over others. 

 

Can you handle that? No small scale content other than solo maybe, to mask the unbalance issue?

I ve had countless conversation with many friends about exatcly this subject.Here is the deal. All the above u mention are correct but only when u talk about a game like lets say wow. 3 talent trees few talents to pick iside the 3 trees yes,it should be very carefully designed and ballanced.

When u have a lets say huge tree with 700 talents inside with only 80 possible to pick during the lvl course its Impossible to calculate what could be the best combo of talent picks.Simply because a random combination of talents x player picked could be better vs your picks.

What u can say is that u could pick a good combo of talents that suit your tactical behavior during various combat situations or suit your playstyle better but in any case u cant calculate in huge talent trees best possible combo.You can only speculate it would favor u in some situations but as u can imagine in vast trees u cant even guess what the oppoents builds are like.The possibilities are chaotic.

Now in a case that i pvp 1v1 with a player that has a smarter build than mine bravo and grz to him.He made a smarter choise and he deserves a small advantage over me. That doesnt neceserilly gives him victory though cause during hte fight he must also use his abilities,the benefits from his specc well and also fight well. Amd since in a server or arenas,,or bgs,or open pvp exist aparently loads of ppl the chaos theory guarantees that noone will have a stronger build than the majority of players that play that game.

Conclusion: balance issues exist in mmorpgs that are using less chaotic systems with little choises from the player side. Chaos= unpredictable=impossible to calculate=completely indifferent to balance issues

P.S. One of the greatest benefits of such an advancement system completely terminates the idea go to x site and read whats the pawn x class best build.

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by MMOExposed
 

I ve had countless conversation with many friends about exatcly this subject.Here is the deal. All the above u mention are correct but only when u talk about a game like lets say wow. 3 talent trees few talents to pick iside the 3 trees yes,it should be very carefully designed and ballanced.

When u have a lets say huge tree with 700 talents inside with only 80 possible to pick during the lvl course its Impossible to calculate what could be the best combo of talent picks.Simply because a random combination of talents x player picked could be better vs your picks.

What u can say is that u could pick a good combo of talents that suit your tactical behavior during various combat situations or suit your playstyle better but in any case u cant calculate in huge talent trees best possible combo.You can only speculate it would favor u in some situations but as u can imagine in vast trees u cant even guess what the oppoents builds are like.The possibilities are chaotic.

Now in a case that i pvp 1v1 with a player that has a smarter build than mine bravo and grz to him.He made a smarter choise and he deserves a small advantage over me. That doesnt neceserilly gives him victory though cause during hte fight he must also use his abilities,the benefits from his specc well and also fight well. Amd since in a server or arenas,,or bgs,or open pvp exist aparently loads of ppl the chaos theory guarantees that noone will have a stronger build than the majority of players that play that game.

Conclusion: balance issues exist in mmorpgs that are using less chaotic systems with little choises from the player side. Chaos= unpredictable=impossible to calculate=completely indifferent to balance issues

P.S. One of the greatest benefits of such an advancement system completely terminates the idea go to x site and read whats the pawn x class best build.

No way does excess amount of choices make balance issues go away. I wonder what type of logic you have used to get to a conclusion like that. GW1 had well over a thousand skills, unimaginable amount of different combinations for an 8-skill skillbar, and still they had to actively maintain the balance.

Players do not just mash skills/talents together to randomly find an effective build. Usually it goes along the lines of finding an exceptionally useful skill/talent and exploiting that. Building the build around those key abilities. And thats not even the whole story; the objective plays an important role aswell. Afterall, sieges, deathmatches and capture the flags all require different builds to succeed.

I'm guessing you're not really understanding balance. If a build can gives you a "sure victory", either the game uses hard counters (which have ran out of favor recently) or the game is poorly balanced. What makes the best build the best is that it wins more times than the rest and/or has less sensible counters than the rest.

If you have ever played competitive PvP, you should know this.

Balanced games are balanced because they are designed carefully to be just that. Not because they give you many choices.

More variety and the skill flow chart, definitely good things.

So much reliance on gem drops for core abilities, not so much.