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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Definitely another bad year for MMORPGs.

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164 posts found
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

2/19/13 1:11:17 PM#101
Originally posted by taus01

It's not a hard concept, this post was also not about that. It was about the practices these gaming companies are using right now to get as much money as possible before the game is even released. The promises made and the blatant lies about features that never make it into the final product.

Not sure how that's a hard concept for people looking at the facts and seeing that something is going horribly wrong.

Well if you'd stuck to the point about crowdsourcing and paid beta scams yourself, the discussion wouldn't be so muddled. But you couldn't resist editorializing further by calling the thread "Another bad year for MMORPGs" and adding "No, I like the game released in the last few years" as the negative answer to your mini-poll.

Yes, crowdsourcing and paid betas are a scummy new trend to separate naive MMORPG fans from their money. No, the games in the past year didn't all suck: GW2 and TSW both were worthwhile and innovative in their own ways.

  BlackcatZero

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 46

2/19/13 1:11:57 PM#102

yes an I agree on something is going wrong when game companies expect $200 or $300 for a beta (it may be as simple as they ran out of money for there project and can or need help funding the project to make they're game) mmoprg cost tons to make and if it's funding they need to up frfont and say we would like to give u our product but it cost more money then we have please help and we make the choise to help or not.  your saying it isn't right or we should not spend money on games or what we like and spend money on. hint I supposted Darkfall:unholy war and dislike it so I just canceled and said after this no more money. I spent money on age of wushu and have not regreed it same goes for Defiance and Neverwinter. but in the end it's my choise and anyone else that decided to suppost them.

 

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17953

2/19/13 1:50:34 PM#103
Originally posted by BlackcatZero

yes an I agree on something is going wrong when game companies expect $200 or $300 for a beta (it may be as simple as they ran out of money for there project and can or need help funding the project to make they're game) mmoprg cost tons to make and if it's funding they need to up frfont and say we would like to give u our product but it cost more money then we have please help and we make the choise to help or not.  your saying it isn't right or we should not spend money on games or what we like and spend money on. hint I supposted Darkfall:unholy war and dislike it so I just canceled and said after this no more money. I spent money on age of wushu and have not regreed it same goes for Defiance and Neverwinter. but in the end it's my choise and anyone else that decided to suppost them.

 

 

 

No they are not expecting everyone to pay. No one is forcing you to pay. It is a free world, isn't it? What is wrong with charging whatever for the beta product a dev is producing?

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

2/19/13 1:52:52 PM#104

For 2012:

My total expenditures for MMOs: $0.00.
Total MMO play time: 0.0 hours.
Hours spent on these forums: LOTS.

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  BlackcatZero

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 46

2/19/13 1:57:20 PM#105
it was a figure of speach. yes noone is forcing u to pay that much or anything.
  Panthien

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/07/12
Posts: 556

2/19/13 2:06:33 PM#106
Originally posted by BlackcatZero

yes an I agree on something is going wrong when game companies expect $200 or $300 for a beta (it may be as simple as they ran out of money for there project and can or need help funding the project to make they're game) mmoprg cost tons to make and if it's funding they need to up frfont and say we would like to give u our product but it cost more money then we have please help and we make the choise to help or not.  your saying it isn't right or we should not spend money on games or what we like and spend money on. hint I supposted Darkfall:unholy war and dislike it so I just canceled and said after this no more money. I spent money on age of wushu and have not regreed it same goes for Defiance and Neverwinter. but in the end it's my choise and anyone else that decided to suppost them.

 

 

 

Im curious, which games charge that kind of money  just a beta?

  taus01

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

 
OP  2/19/13 2:09:27 PM#107
Originally posted by Panthien

Since you calling their advertisement flat out lies, I would love to hear some excamples.

Ok, i play your game. Let's take the most recent released big title, Guildwars 2. Just to name a few promises.

1. Server Guesting, has been touted as the big feature multiple times over 5 years. Not in the game at release and still to this day not in the game.

2. The strict no grind philosophy they been spreading for years and reality is that the end game they call "Fractals" is probably the grindiest end game system ever invented.

In fact, ANet admitted to these and other misleading facts they have spread and are giving everyone a refund if he asks for one. 

 

 

Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by BlackcatZero

yes an I agree on something is going wrong when game companies expect $200 or $300 for a beta (it may be as simple as they ran out of money for there project and can or need help funding the project to make they're game) mmoprg cost tons to make and if it's funding they need to up frfont and say we would like to give u our product but it cost more money then we have please help and we make the choise to help or not.  your saying it isn't right or we should not spend money on games or what we like and spend money on. hint I supposted Darkfall:unholy war and dislike it so I just canceled and said after this no more money. I spent money on age of wushu and have not regreed it same goes for Defiance and Neverwinter. but in the end it's my choise and anyone else that decided to suppost them. 

Im curious, which games charge that kind of money  just a beta?

Plenty of Kickstarter had exclusive BETA access at $100+ Levels. Currently Neverwinter MMO wants $199 for a founders pack. (to be fair there is also a mroe limited $60 package).

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  Aeonblades

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 1111

2/19/13 2:11:04 PM#108
What? Another inquisition? I thought we had an uprising last week. These are getting old.

Currently Playing: Rift, ESO, EQ1, Various betas
Have played: You name it.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

2/19/13 2:11:48 PM#109
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BlackcatZero

yes an I agree on something is going wrong when game companies expect $200 or $300 for a beta (it may be as simple as they ran out of money for there project and can or need help funding the project to make they're game) mmoprg cost tons to make and if it's funding they need to up frfont and say we would like to give u our product but it cost more money then we have please help and we make the choise to help or not.  your saying it isn't right or we should not spend money on games or what we like and spend money on. hint I supposted Darkfall:unholy war and dislike it so I just canceled and said after this no more money. I spent money on age of wushu and have not regreed it same goes for Defiance and Neverwinter. but in the end it's my choise and anyone else that decided to suppost them.

 

 

 

No they are not expecting everyone to pay. No one is forcing you to pay. It is a free world, isn't it? What is wrong with charging whatever for the beta product a dev is producing?

 

It's a free world so spammers should be able to spam here and the mods should let it go... con artists should be able to take all of your grandparent's retirement savings without consequences...yeah love that "free world" kinda of thinking.

Companies are taking advantage of the apparent desire by some gamers to feel like they're more than gamers...that they're investors in the development process, when in fact they're just gamers being separated from their money on the basis that the game MIGHT make it out of development and MIGHT not be a POS that they actually want to play...but by the time they find that out, it's too late--they already paid.

This trend started a while back with "lifetime subscriptions." The pitch is that you're not a true fan or committed enough to your beloved game unless you become a lifer. All they have to give you is a description and a bit of art with a mishmash of anti-MMORPG Big Company Establishment features to make them seem cutting-edge. Now they've just figured out a way to get you to commit and be a lifer on spec before they have anything for you to play.

Yeah...let's get rid of regulations, governments and law enforcement then no one can force you to do anything...it'd be such a better world wouldn't it?

This is just the gamer equivalent of the Nigerian tied-up funds so they need your bank account info scam. More sophisticated and more targetted but pretty dodgy.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17953

2/19/13 2:14:18 PM#110
Originally posted by Iselin
 

 

Companies are taking advantage of the apparent desire by some gamers to feel like they're more than gamers...that they're investors in the development process, when in fact they're just gamers being separated their your money on the basis that the game MIGHT make it out of development and MIGHT not be a POS that they actually want to play...but by the time they find that out, it's too late--they already paid.

As long as there is no false advertising, and no fraud, i don't see why not. If some "gamers" have such desire, it is called a demand to be filled.

Personallly i think it is silly, but what is wrong for these whales to pay for what they know is coming ... a beta.

 

  taus01

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

 
OP  2/19/13 2:18:52 PM#111
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Iselin 

Companies are taking advantage of the apparent desire by some gamers to feel like they're more than gamers...that they're investors in the development process, when in fact they're just gamers being separated their your money on the basis that the game MIGHT make it out of development and MIGHT not be a POS that they actually want to play...but by the time they find that out, it's too late--they already paid.

As long as there is no false advertising, and no fraud, i don't see why not. If some "gamers" have such desire, it is called a demand to be filled.

Personallly i think it is silly, but what is wrong for these whales to pay for what they know is coming ... a beta.

 

Guildwars admitted to false advertising and is giving everyone a refund without questions asked. It's the right thing to do, no question about that, but its despicable to try and get away with it first.

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

2/19/13 2:23:29 PM#112
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Iselin 

Companies are taking advantage of the apparent desire by some gamers to feel like they're more than gamers...that they're investors in the development process, when in fact they're just gamers being separated their your money on the basis that the game MIGHT make it out of development and MIGHT not be a POS that they actually want to play...but by the time they find that out, it's too late--they already paid.

As long as there is no false advertising, and no fraud, i don't see why not. If some "gamers" have such desire, it is called a demand to be filled.

Personallly i think it is silly, but what is wrong for these whales to pay for what they know is coming ... a beta.

 

Guildwars admitted to false advertising and is giving everyone a refund without questions asked. It's the right thing to do, no question about that, but its despicable to try and get away with it first.

No they have not. Where is this from? I have never seen anything posted ANYWHERE where A.Net said this. Remember what we put on this site, open MMORPG.COM to law suits. Conjecture and utter tripe and slander comes to mind.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17953

2/19/13 2:26:56 PM#113
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Iselin 

Companies are taking advantage of the apparent desire by some gamers to feel like they're more than gamers...that they're investors in the development process, when in fact they're just gamers being separated their your money on the basis that the game MIGHT make it out of development and MIGHT not be a POS that they actually want to play...but by the time they find that out, it's too late--they already paid.

As long as there is no false advertising, and no fraud, i don't see why not. If some "gamers" have such desire, it is called a demand to be filled.

Personallly i think it is silly, but what is wrong for these whales to pay for what they know is coming ... a beta.

 

Guildwars admitted to false advertising and is giving everyone a refund without questions asked. It's the right thing to do, no question about that, but its despicable to try and get away with it first.

No they have not. Where is this from? I have never seen anything posted ANYWHERE where A.Net said this. Remember what we put on this site, open MMORPG.COM to law suits. Conjecture and utter tripe and slander comes to mind.

He is being sarcastic.

  firefly2003

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 2557

I miss you Star Wars Galaxies...:(

2/19/13 2:43:06 PM#114

         The OP has the best of intentions here but my problem with this post is the fact were not getting the same MMOs this year when finally MMOs are being developed in a different direction of the sandpark (hybrid) Archeage, The Repopulation, Wildstar, and some not so much in the hybrid direction The Elder Scrolls Online (jury is still out on this one) they are trying new things.

         Slamming crowdfunding isn't the right thing to do how are they a culprit? These are indie developers without backing of major funding that want to get their game off the ground and some of them are catching the gamer's eyes . WIthout the inteference of investors and publishers telling them what to do to, appealing  to lowest common denominator, dumbing it down, MMO lovers can have a game that they actually want to play for more than 1 month.

        To be honest we need new directions, new ways to fund games without assholes like EA or Activison with their hands in the pie. Investors and business types who know nothing about gaming or design whatsoever, its killing the gaming industry, market studies , surveys, charts and graphs show minute information on what gamers want, so they believe they are helping by funding games that noone wants or just rehashes of the last 4 releases (Call of Duty)

       Ill be happy to pay for crowdfunding if I can get the game I want and not whats trending or whats hot (FPS) and developers get to make the games they want to with input from us with reasonable community direction, Wasteland 2, The Repopulation , and Star Citizen are games I actually want to play but publishers wouldn't touch them, they said there was no market for them or didn't have faith in them enough to fund them , guess what they was wrong, not only did they raise their funding but in more ways exceeded what they originally asked for, that tells those publishers and investors they was wrong just cause its not a billion dollar IP involved like Call of Duty or Assassins Creed doesnt mean it wont make money, sometimes making a good game in the long run is better than churning out the same ol shit just to make a dollar

 

  Panthien

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/07/12
Posts: 556

2/19/13 2:47:31 PM#115
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by Panthien

Since you calling their advertisement flat out lies, I would love to hear some excamples.

Ok, i play your game. Let's take the most recent released big title, Guildwars 2. Just to name a few promises.

1. Server Guesting, has been touted as the big feature multiple times over 5 years. Not in the game at release and still to this day not in the game.

2. The strict no grind philosophy they been spreading for years and reality is that the end game they call "Fractals" is probably the grindiest end game system ever invented.

In fact, ANet admitted to these and other misleading facts they have spread and are giving everyone a refund if he asks for one. 

 

Neither are actually listed as feature during their actual promotions so other then that being "plans" they never became actual listed features, so much for false advertisements.

point 2 is debateble, then again.. everyone knew including them there is no way around a grind at end game, we can debate the magnitude of the grind but we already knew there would be one, what did you expect? Hit max lvl and blam full decked out?

But regardless both may have been discussed but neither made it to the feature listings.

 

Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by BlackcatZero

yes an I agree on something is going wrong when game companies expect $200 or $300 for a beta (it may be as simple as they ran out of money for there project and can or need help funding the project to make they're game) mmoprg cost tons to make and if it's funding they need to up frfont and say we would like to give u our product but it cost more money then we have please help and we make the choise to help or not.  your saying it isn't right or we should not spend money on games or what we like and spend money on. hint I supposted Darkfall:unholy war and dislike it so I just canceled and said after this no more money. I spent money on age of wushu and have not regreed it same goes for Defiance and Neverwinter. but in the end it's my choise and anyone else that decided to suppost them. 

Im curious, which games charge that kind of money  just a beta?

Plenty of Kickstarter had exclusive BETA access at $100+ Levels. Currently Neverwinter MMO wants $199 for a founders pack. (to be fair there is also a mroe limited $60 package).

Neverwinter lets you apply for beta, there have been several beta key giveway's as well. So you can get garanteed access by getting a founder pack. So much for having to pay just to get into beta.

  tman5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/07
Posts: 610

2/19/13 2:59:04 PM#116
Originally posted by taus01

 

We are a desperate group of gamers:

I know, we are all desperate for a really good MMORPG but if we continue to support these crappy games we will never get the industry change.

  • Stop buying into these payed BETAS of games promising things they can not deliver.
  • Stop making excuses for games with phrases like "A MMORPG is never finished", "They will fix it after release" or "They said they will add [insert promised feature here] after release". When has anything of this ever happened? 
  • Stop believing reviews from gaming sites including this one. They live from advertisements and the will not bite the hand that feeds them. Simple fact.
  • Don't support want to be MMORPGs like Path of Exile or Defiance. These are not MMORPGs.
Only you can stop this by not supporting the games until they deliver what they promise. Yes, of cause, this genre of games do improve and get better over time but why throw money at them NOW when you have no way to tell if any of the features ever going to be delivered.
 
Why not wait until all the promised features are delivered and then buy it? I know, its crazy how much sense this makes but for some reason we are idiots (i include myself) that throw money at half assed games in the hope "They will fix it after release" because "an MMORPG is never finished" and "They said they will add [insert feature X here]".
 
THIS HAS TO STOP NOW!
 
__________________________________________________________________________

 

Crowdmilking:

This year will be no different than the last 10. The only thing that is changing right now is that every one of them tries to get as much money as they can before the game is actually released. A new trend that is influenced by the Kickstarter crowdfunding movement. I call it "Crowdmilking".

  1. Bought BETA and features. Preorder to get BETA, Headstart, in game items like mounts, useless swag like badges, T-shirts or other crap.
  2. Combine #1 bought BETAS with an NDA to maximize Profit before people can realize how shitty a game is going to be.
  3. All the new games are designed with Microtransaction shops and F2P in mind because developers know they have a sub standard product and that we will reject it like we did the past 10 years.
  4. They are starting Crowdfunding for Patches/Updates/Content. This is a very new trend that will ask for donations to make updates to the game or add content. Based on Kickstarter there are funding goals to be met for different features.
  5. Maximize initial box sales no matter what. Lie, deceive or outright make shit up to get people to pay box price. This practice has been seen with a game released last holiday season. AOC started it, probably had only 30% of the features they promised at start and the BETA was nothing like the rest of the game. AOC was the ultimate bait and switch scam.
_________________________________________________________________________

 

The Revolution has to start now, this year, or we will be stuck with more and more of the same money grabs and boring themeparks for decades to come.

(ps: don't take the revolution thing litterally please, this is about bad practices of gaming companies not about starting a revolution)

 

 

While I generally agree with your points, do not forget that some of the games that fall into your description some people actually enjoy.  Never begrudge another person's fun.   A prime example is DayZ, which fits most everything "bad" you describe, yet there are those who enjoy the game.

 

This is why I wait months before considering a game.  I let hype die, launch issues shake out and read reactions from other players who have deeply played the game.  This is also why I haven't played an MMO for over two years.

  Randayn

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/12
Posts: 584

2/19/13 3:18:30 PM#117

The biggest issue I can see with MMORPG's today is that they are never a complete package:

You typically get one of the following:

- great combat terrible corridor sized world

- open world with the same things everywhere

- amazing setting and diverse world with not enough diversity in anything else

- endless content with 1rst grade level story and lack of diversity

- awesome sandbox elements but no pve and full loot PVP

 

When will we get a game that has a great setting, diverse world, with good to great combat, a deep and interesting story, intricate skill system,  deep crafting system and tons of different gear so that you dont have to look the same as someone else? (think Anarchy Online :P)

On top of that, Id like house building, farming, fishing, boat building and vehicle building as well as animal raising.

For now though, I have my sights set on The Repopulation and I agree with the OP that if you just "like" a game, not love it, and you haven't run across a game like that in a while because of the same reasons over and over, it might be time to demand a good product by only investing in worth while projects....but then...what is a worthwhile project?

 

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 611

2/19/13 3:39:33 PM#118
Originally posted by Arclan

For 2012:

My total expenditures for MMOs: $0.00.
Total MMO play time: 0.0 hours.
Hours spent on these forums: LOTS.

Well I played a lot more than that in 2012.  But Feb 2013 has been exactly that.

  Aerowyn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/19/13 3:43:50 PM#119
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by mbd1968
Originally posted by Aerowyn
2012 was the best year for MMOs since 2004 IMHO,, had several MMOs with plenty of new ideas for the genre.. i feel 2013 with a slew of promising games coming  will build on what we saw in 2012.. I feel 2013 will be the best year for MMOs ever:)

I think we live in different realities, for me 2012 was more of the same wearing a different skin or in disguise masquerading as somthing better than it was. 2013 doesn't look much better.

all about preferences.. Been gaming since the 80s I wouldn't expect everyone to enjoy the same things as me or have the same values in games... Not sure how that's a hard concept for people..

It's not a hard concept, this post was also not about that. It was about the practices these gaming companies are using right now to get as much money as possible before the game is even released. The promises made and the blatant lies about features that never make it into the final product.

Not sure how that's a hard concept for people looking at the facts and seeing that something is going horribly wrong.

what lies? i have seen many mistake or misunderstand things.. I have seen many read things on these forums and think they are facts then blame developers when its not true.. You talking about PR speak? because every MMO ever uses PR talk when promoting a game it's their job to do so as it is with any product. I have played every MMO released this past year and haven't payed any more than the box price aside from a couple bucks to gw2 for some extra bag slots and that's it. Only one I could see looking at their MMO as just a cash grab is EA but i don't follow that one at all anymore so can't really comment on that.

Also my quote was just responding to someone elses post not the OP specifically

oh also on getting money before release.. stuff like pre-ordering and collectors editions have been out forever.. now they are actually adding a lot more to those then in the past it seems.. also its all optional anyway so who cares if people buy them or not

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 599

2/19/13 3:46:29 PM#120
Good MMO's have been produced in prior years, and OP is right, this year is not looking good so far. Unfortunately we need to sit tight while the big guys (Bliizard and SOE) work on their next big MMO's and we need to be smart enough than to waste our time on these second-rate or worse MMOs that keep popping up.
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