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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Why kickstarter?

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335 posts found
  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

2/19/13 1:22:23 PM#141
you can keep feeding the mediocre mmo machine or u can give a leap of faith towards creativity. the machine are 10 yearrs running up... make ur choice.
  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

2/19/13 1:24:50 PM#142
double post
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/19/13 1:57:27 PM#143
Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  

 It does compute.

DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.

The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.

Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/19/13 2:00:31 PM#144
Lol the spouting of bullshit never ceases.

P.s. daoc is still running, Mr fosters game got shutdown :D
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/19/13 2:04:18 PM#145
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Lol the spouting of bullshit never ceases.

P.s. daoc is still running, Mr fosters game got shutdown :D

 Ultima Online and EverQuest 2 are still running.

P.S. Its Koster not Foster.

P.S.S Loved how you didnt refute anything directly

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  DavisFlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2369

2/19/13 2:05:56 PM#146
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Raagnarz
Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

 

Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

 

Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

 

Yeah, by making a point for point shameless shallow WoW clone. 

Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones. 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

2/19/13 2:32:46 PM#147

Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.


Originally posted by DavisFlight
Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.

True.

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  stux

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 466

2/19/13 2:38:10 PM#148
Originally posted by Ingvar
Originally posted by stux

 I agree that it is an obvious money grab.

 

Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.

 

You want us to make a game we would make anyway?  Give us some free money then....

 

It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.

 

If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard.  ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.

Actually they woun't make the game is the kickstarter failes...

No offense, but I find that laughable....

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1108

2/19/13 2:45:34 PM#149
Originally posted by Arclan

Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.

That's because it hasn't started yet.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5143

2/19/13 2:45:50 PM#150
Originally posted by Arclan

Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight
Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.

 

True.

The Kickstarter  doesn't start until March.

They can't find conventional funding because every time this formula has been tried it's been a financial failure. If your definition of good is a MMO that never made any money I suppose it's true.  If by some miracle he did get some major investors interested Mr Jacbs would have to give up an unacceptable portion of control to them.

 

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law

  stux

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 466

2/19/13 2:50:55 PM#151
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
 I need the Kickstarter to fund to prove to the other investors (and to myself) that I'm not just this grumpy old game guy who thinks he has a good idea but nobody wants to play the game but a few other old school gamers. Our KS will be the proof of interest from our target market.

Mark

This basically proves what I replied.

 

Mark you probably should not be on here discussing your game, no offense.  You are going to get quoted all over the place :).  Plus, people will read into it.  Myself, when I see a lead dev in a place like this it makes me think the guy is going to be playing the game and picking favorites.

 

Do you guys really want ALL games to do this?

 

Mark (hah funny pun) my words, this will be the new way for investors to test potential game ideas.  The whole new proof of concept (a saying Darkfall's AV likes to toss around).  Plus, free starting capital.

 

 

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/19/13 2:52:15 PM#152
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  

 It does compute.

DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.

The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.

Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.

Actually, DAoC had 250K subs at peak, EQ had 450K subs at peak. And as you know, we developed DAoC in 18 months at 2.5M vs 3 years at Sony and at a much great expense. And of course, DAoC is still running as is EQ, when so many other MMORPGs aren't,  as subscription-based games or in many cases, not running at all and/or never launched.

As to most of the rest, well, you are entitled to your opinion of course.

 

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  cronius77

Elite Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1235

2/19/13 3:03:50 PM#153
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  

 It does compute.

DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.

The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.

Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.

Actually, DAoC had 250K subs at peak, EQ had 450K subs at peak. And as you know, we developed DAoC in 18 months at 2.5M vs 3 years at Sony and at a much great expense. And of course, DAoC is still running as is EQ, when so many other MMORPGs aren't,  as subscription-based games.

As to most of the rest, well, you are entitled to your opinion of course.

 

I agree with this a good sub game that actually lives up to expectations will do fine even today , look at wow its fine and old as crude. They still use the same ol graphics models from 2004 and they never divert from their end game at all. Its dailys , heroics, and raiding nothing else and they continue to rack in the cash.

I think this free to play argument is based on games that just never did that well to begin with. Id much rather pay a sub fee and contribute to a kickstarter for a game I enjoy playing instead of some huge cash shop that basically makes you sutlily buy from them to keep up with your guild members or buddies if you have limited playtime like games like guild wars 2. If you look at all the games out there that have converted to buy to play and free to play none of them really held a candle to older games in terms of size of the worlds , amount of classes , and end game content. A good game that is niche and is sub based still holds a market here even today , the game just has to been done exactly how its sold and there will be no issues I think.

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/19/13 3:07:19 PM#154
Originally posted by stux
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
 I need the Kickstarter to fund to prove to the other investors (and to myself) that I'm not just this grumpy old game guy who thinks he has a good idea but nobody wants to play the game but a few other old school gamers. Our KS will be the proof of interest from our target market.

Mark

This basically proves what I replied.

 

Mark you probably should not be on here discussing your game, no offense.  You are going to get quoted all over the place :).  Plus, people will read into it.  Myself, when I see a lead dev in a place like this it makes me think the guy is going to be playing the game and picking favorites.

 

Do you guys really want ALL games to do this?

 

Mark (hah funny pun) my words, this will be the new way for investors to test potential game ideas.  The whole new proof of concept (a saying Darkfall's AV likes to toss around).  Plus, free starting capital.

 

 

I don't mind being quoted. Sometimes I say something that I wish I hadn't but that goes with the territory. As far as that quote, it's accurate. I've been giping about what was going to happen in the MMO space for the last 7years to EA, analysts, etc. Sometimes I was listened to, sometimes I was not and when I wasn't and things then went the way I said they would, well, grumpiness ensued. 

As to Kickstarter, the best thing about KS is that it does free game developers to make the game their fans want and not the game the publishers want. Sometimes the publishers can be very smart, sometimes not but at least this way the fans get the game they wanted *if* the developers come through. That's one of the reasons I'm spending so much time talking about the game and not just doing interviews. I want our potential backers to know exactly what game I will make. 

Now, could Kickstarter turn out to be a flash in the pan, yep, if game developers don't come through, it will kill crowd funding for big projects and that would be a real shame. KS has the potential to put more power in the hands of developers and players than ever before. Now we as an industry have to not mess it up. But here's why I'm excited for crowd funding no matter what happens with CU:

Developers can use CF to not only gauge interest but more importantly, use it as leverage for distribution, partnering, licensing etc. deals as well as saying to a publisher "Well, you might want to own the IP but we'll take this game to CF so..." The industry is in a real bad place right now in terms of the balance of power. Publishers have gotten quite demanding (more so than any other time I remember) about IP ownership even when it's a distribution deal (which used to be almost unheard of in the past) and *if* game developers can use KS to create successful games, there will be a shift back to a fairer sharing of ownership (or none).

I'm not saying this to convince anybody to back our game because frankly, I think most people here already made their minds up here. What I am still doing here is just talking to players and getting their feedback for CU. As to what I'm saying about KS, well, watch what happens with it over the next few years. If guys like Obsidian, Chris Roberts, etc. deliver on their games, things will really change for the better for players and developers alike. If developers can't deliver the goods, well, CF will no longer be viable for developers and publishers will hold all the cards. It will be interesting to watch.

 

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  DavisFlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2369

2/19/13 3:09:10 PM#155
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Arclan

Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight
Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.

 

True.

The Kickstarter  doesn't start until March.

They can't find conventional funding because every time this formula has been tried it's been a financial failure. If your definition of good is a MMO that never made any money I suppose it's true.

 

I'm sorry, but what fantasy land do you live in?

It's the WoW clones that have all been huge flops. They usually flop so hard they take the company that made them with them. Two of Funcom's partners went bankrupt after Age of Conan flopped. SWTOR destroyed most of Bioware and Mythic, and crippled EA for a couple of months too. 

The only MMOs that have done really well over the years, post WoW, are the ones that do unique things, with solid execution, then build on it. See: Eve, Darkfall. Those games have grown over time, while all WoW clones have died within weeks of launch. 

Publishers don't know jack all about MMOs. Hence why we've been in an MMO dark age for almost 8 years now. 

  Eaderbreca

MMORPG.com Streamer

Joined: 4/04/12
Posts: 43

2/19/13 3:10:58 PM#156

I am sorry if it was mentioned in the thread already, but I haven't seen the answer.

How does Kickstarter work *if* the project does not reach its objective, does it reimburse the backers?

 

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  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/19/13 3:11:51 PM#157
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by jtcgs 

 It does compute.

DaoC wasnt big, it was average in terms of player size. It was meant to be a newer EQ with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and it barely was 1/3rd as popular. It was also the first MMO with massive in game player protests. Now jump to Warhammer, it was supposed to be DaoC with ooh ahh advanced cutting edge gameplay and...yep, lost most of its players in under a year because it wasnt.

The industry doesnt want to back him because...wait for it, he wants to make another DaoC type game with ooh ahh, advanced cutting edge gameplay.

Much like Raph Koster, the industry took a while but finally learned that he doesnt live up to his hype and his ideas arent really great.

Actually, DAoC had 250K subs at peak, EQ had 450K subs at peak. And as you know, we developed DAoC in 18 months at 2.5M vs 3 years at Sony and at a much great expense. And of course, DAoC is still running as is EQ, when so many other MMORPGs aren't,  as subscription-based games.

As to most of the rest, well, you are entitled to your opinion of course.

 

 You know, you are correct. I thought they topped 750k at its peak. Development time however matters little as your Hibernia players will attest to your taking a year to start to actually notice them, and even more time to act on their protests. Again, if you would just open your mind to the flaws of the past the industry will embrace you, Koster was very unwilling and its been 5 years trying to get backing for his start-up company...which is still waiting.

We want desginers that evolve, not ones stuck in the past. We already know we can play games outside the box of closed off factions at war. time to throw that box away and UNLEASH your games and give them more freedom.

One can only imagine what DaoC would have been like with a real war not boxed into closed PvP areas when we know (now admittedly) that if you make PvP optional, make town/quest NPCs non-attackable, you remove all the reasons to keep PvP boxed in and still can provide PvP areas like DaoC had that give objectives and bonuses to the controlling side. I am not a WoW fan, but lets admit it, if they had created more open world obectives, they would have had a near perfect system because Vanilla WoW where people were attacking the main cities WAS FUN AS HELL, but you can preserve PvE by making quest NPCs unattackable so those not wanting to take part can still play as they want.

You have some good ideas, so do many others...its the restrictions you place on your games and the things you leave out of them that make a game fail, fall into a niche, become average or a great success. Be a success, I would much rather see you succeed now, than fail...but all I have read so far is...stuck in the past.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Vannor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2887

2/19/13 3:13:37 PM#158
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Raagnarz
Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

 

Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

 

Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

First Mark is a big name in game development history, but his new company is not. He is putting money into CU if the KS goal is hit. He is using KS to judge player interest. Think of it as a straw poll. If the public proves they want the game 60% or more of the total money will come from Mark and his other investors. If KS goal doesn't get reached then it will not be made because the public had shown there isn't enough interest.

Trion was able to get MAJOR funding for a startup company.  

Its a backwards way of deciding to make a game or not.  Of course there is massive demand for a successor to DAoC.  He doesn't need kickstarter to determine that.  Its if people are willing (or gullibe enough) to donate some risk free, free capital to him.  If he cant get enough handouts, he wont make the game.

Its a major red flag.  if he *really* wanted to make CU, he would make CU.

I agree with early post completely. Red flag.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/19/13 3:24:26 PM#159
Jctgs

I played hibernia. we were pretty much always the middle faction, its midgard that occasionally lacked numbers.

again your knowledge from daoc with your "400 man guild that all quit on the same day" never ceases to amaze me.

p.s you were probably playing swg at the time.
p.p.s CU has nothing to do with TESO not having enough wookies and lightsabers for your liking. they are games being built by 2 separate studios where the project leads happened to work together once.
p.p.p.s maybe you should start your own kickstarter for "stellar body battles universe" instead of bitching about games you have no intention of ever playing.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/19/13 3:31:12 PM#160
The thing with trion is they went outside the box. They got their funding from the film & tv industry rather than the crusty old game publishers. Zenimax is a simmilar setup, its owned by film and multimedia types.

Unless your lucky enough to work for a great publisher like valve or zenimax its probably a damn site more fun working as an independent. I know from experience many years ago when Sony bought the company I worked for and made all sorts of silly decisions from on high, like relocating to London which caused many of us to walk as we weren't going to pay triple the mortgage for moving south. Smaller companies work better as there are less layers of management and the bosses are closer to what is really going on.
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