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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » CC and Interrupts will make or break

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84 posts found
  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

2/18/13 5:09:15 PM#21
I seem to remember someone from Mythic claiming that they thoguht CC had gone too far in DAoC after several expansions and changes and that they woudl use less CC in future games.Then they brought otu Warhammer Onlein where CC was even further otu of control soooo......
  Loky

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/06
Posts: 180

2/18/13 5:13:31 PM#22

For any mid or long term CC there will be counters. Purge ,Det, SoS are great examples.

I enjoy the stand still casting. It keeps range at range. Perhaps if a player gets good enough at casting, then the perks/abilities will improve to a no interrupt, move and cast and close cast. Why not. If that is what MJ is aiming for at least.

  Nibs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/04
Posts: 198

2/18/13 5:16:45 PM#23

I used to love the fact that I had to stand still to cast.

I also loved that stats reduced your cast time.

Add in a being able to cast 3 bolts and, if you got your positioning and timing right, you could get 3 bolts in the air before the first one landed leaving the poor target pretty much screwed.

I even loved that heavy armour and shields helped protect against bolts.

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/18/13 5:17:29 PM#24


Originally posted by Drakynn
I seem to remember someone from Mythic claiming that they thoguht CC had gone too far in DAoC after several expansions and changes and that they woudl use less CC in future games.Then they brought otu Warhammer Onlein where CC was even further otu of control soooo......


there wasn't that much CC in WAR...

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/18/13 5:18:57 PM#25

I am not a fan of CC, in any way.

To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat.

Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight.

This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it.

As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare.

I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side.

 

Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19149

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/18/13 5:23:12 PM#26
Originally posted by Drakynn
I seem to remember someone from Mythic claiming that they thoguht CC had gone too far in DAoC after several expansions and changes and that they woudl use less CC in future games.Then they brought otu Warhammer Onlein where CC was even further otu of control soooo......

Realize that Mythic is the classic example of a Development team that had no real clue what made DAOC special which they proved expansion after expansion with one bad idea after another which ultimately ruined the game in the end.

Contrast that with CCP who have a very clear idea of why their title appeals to their niche market and treads very carefully to not piss off too many folks whenever possible. (still fall wrath to much backlash regardless)

We can only hope the folks making this game take a hard look at why WAR didn't work out as well and consider falling back to some of the designs of the previous title even if they personally don't agree with them.

BTW, if you found yourself standing still for a minute in DAOC, you (or your groupmates) did something wrong, and should have learned how to avoid it in the future. It seems many didn't however......

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Loky

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/06
Posts: 180

2/18/13 5:30:05 PM#27
Originally posted by Kyleran
 

BTW, if you found yourself standing still for a minute in DAOC, you (or your groupmates) did something wrong, and should have learned how to avoid it in the future. It seems many didn't however......

 

 

This i agree with!

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

2/18/13 5:33:35 PM#28
Originally posted by Zarkor

What happens in zergs is an uncontrolable spamfest. Any other form of CC, like we are seeing today (short CC, knock-backs, ups, downs, rounds, unders, ... -.-) actually gain strength in numbers. Especially since the short duration on these forms of CC means that there is no Immunity timer.

This, omg this. More, shorter duration CC without immunity timers is so much worse than long duration AOE cc.

I do hope people realize this. You run into a zerg on zerg fight, at the end of it you will have been under the effects of CC for far less of a duration in daoc, than in WoW. In wow-age games PVP is pretty much all about CC, in daoc it is only part of the equation, still important though.

  Canan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 91

2/18/13 6:04:36 PM#29
WAR's CC system and buff system pales in comparison to that of Dark Age of Camelot's. 
  uberowo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 18

2/18/13 6:06:28 PM#30

I completely agree DAoCs CC system was awesome. The specialized CC and "speed" classes made small group RvR viable even in a frontier full of zergs. (It's possible to get away, and/or keep your distance, from a zerg of you add these two things to your group.) Ofcourse the huge and completely "open" frontier landscapes was extremely important as well.

 

It's important to keep CC potent, but also limited to specialist classes. The recent trend in MMOs seems to be making all CCs supershort, and yet available to pretty much everyone and their dogs. It's just not working out.

  Opapanax

Novice Member

Joined: 10/29/11
Posts: 983

Most Morbid One

2/18/13 6:07:42 PM#31

I have yet to really dive into any information about this game, but I can already agree with you that CC will be important in this game in how it effects gameplay. Nameply PvP of course..

Not many games handle CC very well in the balance area and the one title that really took a serious counter to it that I played  recently was SWTOR. Still had issues with CC and having the proper counter for it so that it doesn't become too faceroll..

PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  aylwynn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/13
Posts: 95

2/18/13 6:11:39 PM#32
Originally posted by Stiler

I am not a fan of CC, in any way.

To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat.

Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight.

This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it.

As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare.

I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side.

 

Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.

I don't want to insult you but this sounds like "I don't want to think about anything than choping my enemy's head!".

CC and counter abilities like reducing your meele-character's CC duration in all cases provided tactic. I never experienced being "chain CCed" in Dark Age because there was a timer for about a minute. People had a inside their head for CCing that player again. It provided your brain in PvP pretty much.

  alexisevic

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 41

2/18/13 6:35:21 PM#33
Those of you that are complaining about melee charcters being unplayable due to long deration CC clearly have not played anything even resembaling a modern build of DAoC.  My warrior hardly stopped moving when hit with any form of casted CC.  I honestly think I passed our MORE CC with my 9 second slam then I actually got hit for.  And lets not forget about charge which a lot of tanks had access too.  Det V + Charge 3 = pratically immune to all CC. 
  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

2/18/13 7:01:16 PM#34
Originally posted by aylwynn
Originally posted by Stiler

I am not a fan of CC, in any way.

To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat.

Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight.

This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it.

As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare.

I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side.

 

Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.

I don't want to insult you but this sounds like "I don't want to think about anything than choping my enemy's head!".

CC and counter abilities like reducing your meele-character's CC duration in all cases provided tactic. I never experienced being "chain CCed" in Dark Age because there was a timer for about a minute. People had a inside their head for CCing that player again. It provided your brain in PvP pretty much.

No, I understand it can add strategy and tactics, but  a lot of those tactics usually revolve around cc's and such.

A lot of games (not talking about DOAC specifically here) end up being built around "cc's" in combat, breaking them, giving immunities, on long cd's usually, and a lot of them deaths arise from being stunned the entire duration of a fight in some instances of mmo's.  you have to spend so much time balancing cc, giving classes abilities to break them, then combat ends up being focused a lot on cc's.

SW:TOR for instance was terrible about this.

I'd rather see combat itself less focused on cc's and interrupting cc's, and more on actual combat , in terms of dodging, blocking, specific weapon strategies for players and combat moves.

For example lets take an archer, in many mmo's the main way they try to balance archers vs melee is two fold, they giv ethe archer a type of "stun" or cc, so he can keep enemies at range and shoot them without being in threat of being hit. Then they give melee guys a type of charge or other abilities. Then they constantly balance and tweak around this, adding cc breakers, immunties,etc.

Instead, imagine if the archer had no direct hot-key cc ability, rather if his role in combat was less about hitting that hotkey to get his stun or slow off, and he actually had to aim for it? You want to slow someone as an archer? Aim for their leg, and depending if you hit them, what armour they are wearing, etc it has a % chance to slow them.  A good headshot actually vital an dmajor damage, so archers are less focused on keeping range and constnatly widdling away at a "health bar" and more on actually aiming, hitting vital parts of enemies and other things. could even allow archers as part of their leveling up, to acquire skills to constract useful things, such as pavise(shields you could deploy to provide defense for you while you reload, etc) among spikes to protect from cavalry charging and other things.

As a melee user, you see an arrow coming at you? Try to be quick enough to move out of hte way, if you can't try to shield it with your shield,  They could take this further by having shields actually block based on size, but at the cost of also having weight. This would add more elements to hav epeople play their characters.

For instance, a guy with a tower shield can block range attacks better, but naturally he's slower because of the size and weight of his shield, whereas a guy with a smaller shield is quicker and more nimble, but is easier to hit with ai range attack and would have to try and block a much smaller space if they can.

You talk about tactics, what would be bad about using more real world tactics? Instead of usual stuns, etc you had formations, and terrain based tactics you could employ. Such as pitch fires, traps, etc. I would LOVE to see keep sieges play out like how one might think they would, complete with pitch fires, battering rams, pits, moats, oil traps, ladder climbing, and all sorts of great tactics they used in such cases.

Severance is a game I throw around a lot for melee combat, because it had one of the best/most fun melee combat systems in a game i've played (it wasn't an mmo) but it had more depth and skill to it's combat then other melee combat systems in any game and its combat wasn't focused on cc's.

 

I don't want simple combat. I want in-depth combat that provides a use for a lower level player to play smart, use tactics they learn and strategy, and be able to kill someoen of a higher level based on that.

 

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

2/18/13 8:57:35 PM#35

I LOVE collision detection but I assume its hell to program and creates was more lag.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Canan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/10
Posts: 91

2/18/13 9:36:18 PM#36
I just don't understand the arguments against DAoC's system. The system was near perfect and the hands down BEST system of any MMO till date. There was no getting chain stunned because there were immunity timers and you always new when you were effected by a negative effect. Yes, CC effected PvP in a good (and healthy) way! It promoted depth and decision making and required teams to work together! These are all good things... So what is the problem here?
  Xhieron

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 130

Don't trust these people. They're crooks.

2/18/13 9:37:07 PM#37

I pray that the RPS design direction MJ has been talking about recently will mean that CC is on its way back, along with meaningful healing, sniping, etc.  I agree wholeheartedly with the OP to the extent that CC is one of the first, best tools available to a small force to deal with the zerg.  It's not the only tool, but when you give it up, you have to come up with a lot elsewhere to keep things in check, and we can see from most of the efforts since DAOC that, frankly, RVR isn't the same without consequential CC.

Moreover, personally, I just like the idea of CC being something you can choose for yourself as a role.  It's a certain kind of specialization that most games either lack outright now or tend to just mash in with something else.  I remember being able to be a dedicated CC bot--just as one could be a dedicated healer or tank--and if you were good at it, people knew.

I don't think casting on the move is necessarily a bad thing, but I'm also not convinced it's ever been done properly.  I'm not even sure what it would look like done right; I like the idea of there being more variety in terms of class identity, but someone would have to think long and hard about what should be castable on the run, and by whom (i.e., "everything by everyone" is a horrible idea).

Peace and safety.

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

2/18/13 9:48:23 PM#38
I really think long duration CC is the way to go. Even if it's shorter than daoc mez/roots were, a longer duration with a long immunity is by far the best system I've seen. I also miss nearsight and haste debuff, two of the best soft ccs i've seen in an mmo.
  time007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 386

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

2/19/13 3:43:16 AM#39

People who don't like being CC'd probably greatly outnumber those who need CC to be effective, but you guys should still get it. 

 

Just use the CC we had in the first 1-5 years of DAOC before it got nerfed.  I think it was done well then.  Yes it was a pain for a lot of people and highly controversial, but on the other end, i want to see ZERO knockback, ZERO punting skills, ZERO shoot and fly backwards escape B.S. 

 

So thats why I say just use the DAOC style from the olden days, because what it has evolved into like in Warhammer for example is geared toward a FPS.  CC is something so old school, like in D&D books where a dragon will give dragonfear and people can't move for almost the entire fight. 

 

Thats what we need to go back to, not this twitch type of crowd control we have nowadays.  The old school CC is best imho.

 

I mean will everyone agree that these types of things we had in the original DAOC were great and what we long for?  Most of the evolution we have seen hasn't been great.  Again to the OP, yes I agree this really helps 8-mans and can help stop a zerg. 

 

Edit: To the OP, the only thing i disagree with, is your statement of "it makes or breaks the PVP experience for a game"  While yes, it will make it less fun or harder on a certain player type, this type of thing won't make hordes and hordes of people just quit the game.  I agree with your post and I am on your side, but when you say make or break, you turn into one of those guys who in my other post are always saying, if this game has non-timed stealth I'm not going to play it".  so its the same thing here, try to shy away from using those terms where you say, its a dealbreaker or something for the entire gaming population (you didnt use those exact words, but that is how it came off to me, sorry).  But I agree its a deal breaker for Sorc & Mins type classes yes.  So I'm on your side, but don't go into, how can i put it "tea party mode" where you say you won't play the game or the game will fail if XYZ isnt there.  I could see if you were like a sorc, and your livelihood depended on speed and CC, then you could say, "if we don't have long term CC like old school DAOC, then this is going to greatly impact sorcerors to the point that we will be toast in RVR. 

And yes, if you remove long term CC, you are going to hurt Minstrels, Sorcs, Clerics, etc to the point of making them so ineffective that removing old school CC just to satisfy the ragequit types that don't like being mezzed/CC'd isnt worth it.

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/19/13 3:58:52 AM#40

maybe they could do something like a chaining CC, EG cast polymorth at one player but it chains to any enemy within 1-5m of that target....and so on...no target limit...moral of the story: dont zerg blob...

i had thought about an abilty where they could CC unlimited targets with no cooldown, but it would be too powerful when 2 small groups are fighting eachother. poly chain would have to have a longish cooldown and obviously break on any damage.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

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