Trending Games | Elder Scrolls Online | World of Warcraft | WildStar | Albion Online

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,737,173 Users Online:0
Games:714  Posts:6,176,582
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » The culling bugs are worse than you think--and unlikely to ever receive anything more than a half-baked partial fix

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search
114 posts found
  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

2/18/13 1:56:46 PM#41

Isn't it obvious that culling is not an easy fix? They certainly would have addressed it in a patch by now if it was seeing as it is such a high profile issue. ( Actually they have done something it just doesn't, by users perception, seem to have changed much) . They have communicated with the players in a number of posts as to what the problem is and how they are trying to stage the fixes. Search the GW2 forums "culling" and you will find several ANET posts on the subject. Do you really think trying to client side interface debuging the code is going to give you the best idea of what is going on? Thats a pretty stone knife and bear skin approach. Not saying you cant make guesses just thats what it is guessing. (If I know the Linux OS inside and out it doesn't mean I can debug Windows issues from the user interface. )  ANET has claimed they have a plan. If you feel it should have been fixed by now (or never should have existed in the first place) then yes it is worse then you think. As to the half-baked partial fix stuff well time will tell. For right now, you could be right but your guess is as good as mine. (I don't have one)

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

2/18/13 2:02:46 PM#42

 

Originally posted by Quizzical

Hooray for ad hominem attacks?

No attacks, I just don't trust your ability to have any remotely valid opinion about what the ANet developers did with their engine, and saying it is not forbidden here from what I know. There's no insult, no attacks... just a serious and legitimate doubt about your real technical knowledge.

Have you ever implemented culling in a 3D game engine--and not just licensed some off-the-shelf approach, but implemented your own from scratch?  Considered how collision detection for a camera has to be different from collision detection for players running into a wall?  Computed the maximum possible near plane clipping distance that was safe to avoid improper culling as a function of how your camera placement works, the size and shape of the game window, and the user-adjustable field of view constant?  Debated the relative merits of a signed area versus normal vector approaches to back face culling?  (If you've got geometry shaders, you can use either one, and don't have to rely on the fixed-function signed area approach.)  Carefully considered when it was safe to cull entire patches in tessellation control shaders (signed area never works here, and sometimes normal vectors don't, either)?  Tried manually setting the depth in fragment shaders rather than using the fixed-function depth buffer?  Figured out exactly why 3D graphics needs to use homogeneous coordinates in RP^3 rather than ordinary rectangular, cylindrical, or spherical coordinates in R^3?

And as a result of all of that, seen a whole slew of client-side culling bugs that you've created and had to fix?

Because I have.  And as a result, I recognize some of the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 as things that I've done myself.

I've been working for computer generated real time special effects for video and movie industries for over 15 years (actually started doing 3D on a Commodore Amiga if that tells you something), even though lately I'm working in other domains. I'm not saying you're wrong on some aspects, but you're mixing up apples and oranges. You've learned a lot of technical terms you mix up into a soup which may impress the random forum reader. The distance culling problem in GW2 has nothing to do with collision detection, or even with visibility culling (frustrum, contribution, occlusion, etc...). Additional proof, the screenshots you've posted have nothing to do with the WvsW "invisible entities" problem GW2 has, it's something totally different.

And if the screenshots in your profile are any indication of what you ever did in 3D graphics, well... no big comment, I will just say the guys you critic the work of are a team of veteran professionals with several game engines in their resume.

Originally posted by jpnz

The irony when you post that the camera doesn't need collision detection.

The camera colliding with the landscape and static items so that it doesn't end inside of the floor or a wall has NOTHING to do with distance culling. Nothing. And it definitely isn't even remotely linked to the World vs World "Culling problem" GW2 has, which is the main and only culling problem everybody is talking about.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13121

 
OP  2/18/13 2:05:52 PM#43
Originally posted by Muntz

Isn't it obvious that culling is not an easy fix? They certainly would have addressed it in a patch by now if it was seeing as it is such a high profile issue. ( Actually they have done something it just doesn't, by users perception, seem to have changed much) . They have communicated with the players in a number of posts as to what the problem is and how they are trying to stage the fixes. Search the GW2 forums "culling" and you will find several ANET posts on the subject. Do you really think trying to client side interface debuging the code is going to give you the best idea of what is going on? Thats a pretty stone knife and bear skin approach. Not saying you cant make guesses just thats what it is guessing. (If I know the Linux OS inside and out it doesn't mean I can debug Windows issues from the user interface. )  ANET has claimed they have a plan. If you feel it should have been fixed by now (or never should have existed in the first place) then yes it is worse then you think. As to the half-baked partial fix stuff well time will tell. For right now, you could be right but your guess is as good as mine. (I don't have one)

I'm guessing that you didn't read my original post and won't read this reply.  Sure, that culling isn't yet fixed could be taken as evidence in itself that it's not easy to fix.

But my post has a lot more details than that.  What's probably not obvious to most players is that there are at least three fundamentally different classes of culling bugs in the game that have nothing to do with each other.  And that at least one of them is caused by the way ArenaNet structured their model data being all wrong, on the basis that it will necessarily create rafts of culling bugs.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13121

 
OP  2/18/13 2:11:11 PM#44
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 

Originally posted by Quizzical

Hooray for ad hominem attacks?

No attacks, I just don't trust your ability to have any remotely valid opinion about what the ANet developers did with their engine, and saying it is not forbidden here from what I know. There's no insult, no attacks... just a serious and legitimate doubt about your real technical knowledge.

Have you ever implemented culling in a 3D game engine--and not just licensed some off-the-shelf approach, but implemented your own from scratch?  Considered how collision detection for a camera has to be different from collision detection for players running into a wall?  Computed the maximum possible near plane clipping distance that was safe to avoid improper culling as a function of how your camera placement works, the size and shape of the game window, and the user-adjustable field of view constant?  Debated the relative merits of a signed area versus normal vector approaches to back face culling?  (If you've got geometry shaders, you can use either one, and don't have to rely on the fixed-function signed area approach.)  Carefully considered when it was safe to cull entire patches in tessellation control shaders (signed area never works here, and sometimes normal vectors don't, either)?  Tried manually setting the depth in fragment shaders rather than using the fixed-function depth buffer?  Figured out exactly why 3D graphics needs to use homogeneous coordinates in RP^3 rather than ordinary rectangular, cylindrical, or spherical coordinates in R^3?

And as a result of all of that, seen a whole slew of client-side culling bugs that you've created and had to fix?

Because I have.  And as a result, I recognize some of the culling bugs in Guild Wars 2 as things that I've done myself.

I've been working for computer generated real time special effects for video and movie industries for over 15 years (actually started doing 3D on a Commodore Amiga if that tells you something), even though lately I'm working in other domains. I'm not saying you're wrong on some aspects, but you're mixing up apples and oranges. You've learned a lot of technical terms you mix up into a soup which may impress the random forum reader. The distance culling problem in GW2 has nothing to do with collision detection, or even with visibility culling (frustrum, contribution, occlusion, etc...). Additional proof, the screenshots you've posted have nothing to do with the WvsW "invisible entities" problem GW2 has, it's something totally different.

And if the screenshots in your profile are any indication of what you ever did in 3D graphics, well... no big comment, I will just say the guys you critic the work of are a team of veteran professionals with several game engines in their resume.

Originally posted by jpnz

The irony when you post that the camera doesn't need collision detection.

The camera colliding with the landscape and static items so that it doesn't end inside of the floor or a wall has NOTHING to do with distance culling. Nothing.

Try reading the original post. There are at least three entirely separate classes of culling bugs in the game with totally different causes.  Completely fixing one of them would probably leave the others unaffected entirely.  You seem to want to focus on just one particular culling bug, and then argue that any discussion of other culling bugs in the game is automatically wrong because it doesn't apply to the particular culling bug that you have in mind.

  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

2/18/13 2:17:55 PM#45
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Muntz

Isn't it obvious that culling is not an easy fix? They certainly would have addressed it in a patch by now if it was seeing as it is such a high profile issue. ( Actually they have done something it just doesn't, by users perception, seem to have changed much) . They have communicated with the players in a number of posts as to what the problem is and how they are trying to stage the fixes. Search the GW2 forums "culling" and you will find several ANET posts on the subject. Do you really think trying to client side interface debuging the code is going to give you the best idea of what is going on? Thats a pretty stone knife and bear skin approach. Not saying you cant make guesses just thats what it is guessing. (If I know the Linux OS inside and out it doesn't mean I can debug Windows issues from the user interface. )  ANET has claimed they have a plan. If you feel it should have been fixed by now (or never should have existed in the first place) then yes it is worse then you think. As to the half-baked partial fix stuff well time will tell. For right now, you could be right but your guess is as good as mine. (I don't have one)

I'm guessing that you didn't read my original post and won't read this reply.  Sure, that culling isn't yet fixed could be taken as evidence in itself that it's not easy to fix.

But my post has a lot more details than that.  What's probably not obvious to most players is that there are at least three fundamentally different classes of culling bugs in the game that have nothing to do with each other.  And that at least one of them is caused by the way ArenaNet structured their model data being all wrong, on the basis that it will necessarily create rafts of culling bugs.

Guessing the key word of the post. 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

2/18/13 2:21:36 PM#46
Originally posted by Quizzical

Try reading the original post. There are at least three entirely separate classes of culling bugs in the game with totally different causes.  Completely fixing one of them would probably leave the others unaffected entirely.  You seem to want to focus on just one particular culling bug, and then argue that any discussion of other culling bugs in the game is automatically wrong because it doesn't apply to the particular culling bug that you have in mind.

That's precisely what's wrong with your original post. You mix up several different "problems".

There is only ONE noteworthy "culling problem" in GW2, even though there definitely are several minor display bugs like in most if not all other 3D games. It's the "invisible entities" problem, notably in World vs World. Everything else is totally unrelated and only technical blah blah, in my country we say "trying to drown the fish". And that's a pure, 100% distance culling related problem, the order at which incoming entities are told being "in visible range" to the various clients in range and then loaded and displayed by those clients. There's no visibility culling involved, no camera clipping or collision either, no entity collisions either. Visibility culling due to obstacles between the viewer and the target only happen after the distance culling... and the distance culling bug (aka "invisible armies") happen even on totally flat terrain without any building or other object or entity blocking the sight.

From the sound of your OP, one may think all the problems are related and therefore cannot be fixed. I call Shannanigans on that. The ANet guys actually gave some hints in their posts which confirm that.

To make it short... you make a long post with an alarming title saying "culling bugs are bad and unlikely to ever be completely fixed". I don't agree at all. Those minor bugs most if not all games have, like the camera culling/collision problems, will most likely never get fixed because they are only a minor annoyance not worth developer time. But pretending that because of those minor bugs, the major problem can't be fixed is... nonsense.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

2/18/13 4:30:15 PM#47
I assume that alpha + beta should have revealed the issues prior to release and another 6 months post-launch makes a significant amount of time without it being solved. This is why I personally don't think it will get solved anytime soon. It doesn't seem like a priority to them.

Obviously we don't know how much time or money it will take them to fix it, but there is a limitation to every customer's patience when it comes to gamebreaking issues.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2549

2/18/13 4:32:54 PM#48

The only way it would cost millions is if they have to build an engine from scratch using  hundreds of engineers.

Having a couple of guys working on it exclusively for a few months won't be millions.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3463

2/18/13 4:44:49 PM#49
On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

I love that the pro-gw2 is classifying culling as a 'minor bug'. I guess Anet is lying then.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

2/18/13 4:52:07 PM#50

 

Originally posted by jpnz
On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

I rather look for those who shout "ad hominem attacks" when someone just challenges their knowledge. When you really know what you're talking about, you don't have to cry wolf when someone challenges it. But to each his own agenda, I guess.

riginally posted by jpnz

I love that the pro-gw2 is classifying culling as a 'minor bug'. I guess Anet is lying then.

I guess you have to learn to read and understand then... since nobody said "the" culling bug everybody knows about, the one affecting notably World vs World, was a minor bug. It's the mixing between minor details and that rather big problem that some people here, like me, disagree with.

You may be unable to fix that scratch on your car's door without either replacing the part or at least redoing all the paint of that part, which will be expensive, that doesn't mean you can't fix the inability of your car to move just by putting some gasoline into it. The two are completely unrelated, just like the various issues the OP is talking about are.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Cacaphony

Tipster

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 751

2/18/13 4:57:40 PM#51


Originally posted by itgrowls
Agreed and so is the Loot nerfs/permaDR bug. They've had 4-5 months now to fix those and they still haven't done it yet. Been watching. There's a new forum post about the loot problem and the culling problem daily (and I do include the posts about how thieves need nerfing because they have omgwtfbbqstealth GASP in that count) people keep thinking its the class it's not. The only thing I keep seeing is them saying either the problems don't exist (as they do with the loot, thousands of people's experiences are wrong despite video and screenshot evidence to the contrary you see) or that they are endlessly looking into the problem (like they've done with culling.) Oh well onward to a game title that has better management methinks. So much for GW2.


Bye then?
/shrug


You go on back to STO now, ya hear?

By the way, how long did it take Cryptic to fix the Klingon cloaking bug with text popups?

At least 10 months, right?

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2549

2/18/13 5:10:11 PM#52
Originally posted by jpnz
On a technical focused thread like this, always look for who attacks the poster rather than the tech information / facts. If you know your stuff you don't have to attack just post the knowledge and see the other side squirm and try to attack you.

I love that the pro-gw2 is classifying culling as a 'minor bug'. I guess Anet is lying then.

Arenanet didn't classify it as a bug but as a problem.

Arenanet also said the culling is server-side, not client side.

Arenanet also said that the number of characters the server report to the client is limited.

That is where the OP started from.

There is also the delay related to loading assets that mean the enemies will take time to be drawn and might be on top of you durinf the interval between the server reporting the enemy and your client render it.

All this is said in the OP and what is said by Anet.

Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".

In sPvP there also used to be problems with enemies popping after you were dead and that doesn't happen now.

 

So it is a question of believing Anet or not. I see no advantage of giving specifics that are lies - they could just be vague and they said they were fixing it.

 

 

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2605

There... are... four... lights!

2/18/13 5:18:36 PM#53


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  FARGIN_WAR

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/12
Posts: 169

2/18/13 5:23:28 PM#54
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

 

Well since you seem to be the expert here on the culling issue then, can you please explain its exact cause and give us the steps to rectify the issue and an ETA on how long such a fix should take?

If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  fiontar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3687

2/18/13 6:21:28 PM#55

Sorry if this has been addressed, I didn't read the entire thread.

Umbra. GW2 uses Umbra 3 occlusion culling in GW2. Any discussion of the culling problems in GW2 that doesn't focus on Umbra 3 seems to be missing the biggest piece of the puzzle.

Umbra 3 handles visual and auditory culling for GW2 by modeling a virtual representation of the game world using propriatary algorithms and systems.

I don't know if the problems here are flaws in Umbra 3, or flaws in the way Arenanet has integrated Umbra 3 into GW2, or both, but examination of the Umbra 3 tech is crucial for understanding the culling issues in GW2.

I hope Quizzical will do a bit of digging on Umbra 3 and then do a new analysis of the possible causes/solutions for the culling issues in GW2.

During beta, you could turn off Umbra and use GW2s original culling solution. Performance hit, for me, was about 10% to FPS, but I ran with Umbra off during most of the beta events and with it off, I never had culling issues in WvW or elsewhere. Near the end of Beta, they removed the shortcut command line toggle and the game fully transitioned to the use of Umbra for culling. At the switch, there were massive problems with culling in the game, with entire landscapes vanishing under certain conditions. These issues seem to have been manually fixed, for the most part, in time for launch, but the remaining issues have been persistant or have even become worse since launch.

Even during the first month after launch, WvW culling seemed to be an infrequent issue, despite the fact that the queues were full almost 24/7. At around the same time culling started to become a bigger and bigger issue in WvW, sound culling and load time issues for certain locations, most notably Lion's Arch, also started to become constant.

The smoking gun has Umbra 3 branded on it's side, but I'd have to ask people with more knowledge of the technical details to tell me why exactly it's smoking so profusely!

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  fiontar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3687

2/18/13 6:30:46 PM#56

This link may give a little insight on the integration of Umbra 3 into GW2.

http://www.umbrasoftware.com/clients/case-studies/guild-wars-2-case-study/

A possible clue here:

2 Brand Wire

About dynamic objects…can you talk a bit about how the culling of dynamic objects was integrated into your engine’s rendering pipeline? How much work and issues did this bring along?

Guild Wars 2 typically has thousands of dynamic objects active at any given time. These include characters, spell effects, particles, lights, etc… Each has variable lifetimes, complicating interaction with Umbra 3. To simplify this, we added a new management system to track object lifetime and bounding volume data. This system serves as the primary culling interface to the rest of the renderer.

At a high level, we first process static object results from a Tome query at the start of our render pass. This generates a small depth buffer used to cull dynamic objects. The object manager provides lists of dynamic objects to test against this buffer, along with any supporting data. Objects that pass the culling test are queued for render.

Our greatest challenge was developing this system within the framework of a large, mature code base relatively late in production. The results were worth it! The Guild Wars 2 client regularly processes tens of thousands of unique renderable objects while maintaining high frame rates on a wide range of hardware.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2549

2/18/13 7:01:40 PM#57
Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

 

Well since you seem to be the expert here on the culling issue then, can you please explain its exact cause and give us the steps to rectify the issue and an ETA on how long such a fix should take?

Without access to the code no one can.

But someone with access to the code, Arenanet already pointed the general cause and an estimate to have fixes in place.

Of course it is convenient to try to make Anet incompetent (not the OP btw) since it is cool it to bash it since it has no sub and all while ignoring the complexities inherent to having a physic engine like the one GW2 use, have such a huge amount of players per map in WvW and each character have a ton of customization (for example PS2 another MMO with a pretty sturdy physics engine has less charracter customization) opposed to the large majority of the MMORPGs that simply lack collision detection and projectile physics.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18727

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/18/13 7:08:17 PM#58
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

 

This discussion in this thread is a bit above my head, but I will say that over the years Quiz has proven himself to be a very knowledeable poster with no real hidden agenda for or against any particular game.

Now you on the other hand, not so much.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4576

2/18/13 7:11:41 PM#59
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter Then the OP go on talking about issues that exisit but that don't exaclty relate to the "invisible armies".
And this is what some here, including people 3D graphics development backgrounds, disagree with. Most of what the OP told holds some truth when taken separately. Trying to amalgamate it all together in some kind of doom theory about GW2's graphic and client/server engine becomes total nonsense.

 

Well since you seem to be the expert here on the culling issue then, can you please explain its exact cause and give us the steps to rectify the issue and an ETA on how long such a fix should take?

Without access to the code no one can.

But someone with access to the code, Arenanet already pointed the general cause and an estimate to have fixes in place.

Of course it is convenient to try to make Anet incompetent (not the OP btw) since it is cool it to bash it since it has no sub and all while ignoring the complexities inherent to having a physic engine like the one GW2 use, have such a huge amount of players per map in WvW and each character have a ton of customization (for example PS2 another MMO with a pretty sturdy physics engine has less charracter customization) opposed to the large majority of the MMORPGs that simply lack collision detection and projectile physics.

Pretty much this ^

The main issue with Culling (and Anet has NOT been shy about explaining this), is how the game prioritizes it's data. There are definitely some optimization issues with the game engine (i.e. getting only 20 buddies to display at once, is not impressive), but without knowing exactly and all variables the game is checking for and processing, no one but Anet can know that much detail. And it would be unreasonable to ask them for such.

I have my own doubts about Anet's ability to fix the issue, but they've only ever promised they'd work on it. Which they have been. Furthermore, there is a lot more going on in this game than most. When you look at any other MMO, what goes on under the hood is very stripped down by comparison, in favor of being able to process more data. This is why the older games tended to be more 'massive'. They had less variables to compute at any given time, so they could process a lot more of them. There may come a time when Anet decides to reduce / remove some minor feature in favor of performance, but for now I don't think that'll happen.

  SonicTHI

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/07
Posts: 158

2/18/13 7:37:53 PM#60

The culling "bug" talked about in GW2 is an entity based thing. Its not about rendering but about what the server is limited to send to the clients. AFIK that is 50 entities: NPCs, players, mobs.

But.
Graphical culling or rather the bad implementation of it might be one of the reasons why they are not just upping that number. Other reasons being bandwidth and server cycles of course.

With current max of 50 visible players/foes even the best CPUs OCed to the max cannot run the game at 60 FPS. Older quads like my Q6600 at 3.2 drop to 10.
Whether that is due to bad graphical culling, client side calculations of movement, bad optimization etc. is hard to tell without seeing the code but from what i ve seen the biggest problem is in the engine not using more than 2 CPU cores effectively.

The game simply doesnt scale well for lower or mid end rigs. Till they fix that they might as well leave the entity culling in the game.

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search