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News & Features Discussion  » Neverwinter: The Rant #1 - Fixing the Holy Trinity

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  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

2/18/13 10:28:54 AM#41
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
no trinity  = easy game mode/asocial game mode

Trinity - EASY ASS MODE - Anti-social game. Using the Trinity DOES NOT make the game social. Everyone knows there roles and someone barks out orders - there is no social aspect to the game at all.

I have played games with the trinity and find them JUST AS anti-social as games without them. Forced grouping does not make a game social - people make the game social.

If you have to have game mechanics to be social in an MMO - go play Skyrim please.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  fdisk81

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 7

2/18/13 10:31:12 AM#42
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.

Bunker elementalist forever!

I disagree; it is my experience that  a well coordinated group on any MMO makes for a much more experience than any GW2 dungeon run.  Every single GW2 dungeon run I've gone on, whether with experienced guildmates or a PUG always feels like an uncoordinated mess even when you DO have coordination.

Having no way of attracting a MOB's attention is the biggest issue with dungeon running.  Say that you are in a group and one of your mates goes down (Which in GW2 is every fight, it's part of the design, that's fine, I like that actually) there's no way for you to get the MOB away from the downed player or the one trying to revive them.  You have to rely almost completely on luck.

I think it would be a lot more fun if once a player goes down I could briefly taunt the MOB away from them to allow for someone else to revive them and get them back in the fight.   Especially since as a Mace + Shield Warrior I am perfectly capable of going toe to toe with any MOB for a long period of time without dying, effectively tanking, the problem is that there is no way for me to hold the MOB's attention on me no matter how well I'm fighting it.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

2/18/13 10:37:28 AM#43
Originally posted by fdisk81
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.

Bunker elementalist forever!

I disagree; it is my experience that  a well coordinated group on any MMO makes for a much more experience than any GW2 dungeon run.  Every single GW2 dungeon run I've gone on, whether with experienced guildmates or a PUG always feels like an uncoordinated mess even when you DO have coordination.

Having no way of attracting a MOB's attention is the biggest issue with dungeon running.  Say that you are in a group and one of your mates goes down (Which in GW2 is every fight, it's part of the design, that's fine, I like that actually) there's no way for you to get the MOB away from the downed player or the one trying to revive them.  You have to rely almost completely on luck.

I think it would be a lot more fun if once a player goes down I could briefly taunt the MOB away from them to allow for someone else to revive them and get them back in the fight.   Especially since as a Mace + Shield Warrior I am perfectly capable of going toe to toe with any MOB for a long period of time without dying, effectively tanking, the problem is that there is no way for me to hold the MOB's attention on me no matter how well I'm fighting it.

I have found it the exact opposite - every 'supposed' trinity group is a mess. I have run GW2 dungeons and while they can be a little chaotic, I have found them more fun than ANY TRINITY game I have played.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  fdisk81

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 7

2/18/13 10:38:37 AM#44
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
no trinity  = easy game mode/asocial game mode

Trinity - EASY ASS MODE - Anti-social game. Using the Trinity DOES NOT make the game social. Everyone knows there roles and someone barks out orders - there is no social aspect to the game at all.

I have played games with the trinity and find them JUST AS anti-social as games without them. Forced grouping does not make a game social - people make the game social.

If you have to have game mechanics to be social in an MMO - go play Skyrim please.

I've never understood this reasoning.  I made a lot of "friends" in Guild Wars 2 while running around questing,  yet I never spoke again with anyone who I ran a dungeon with, yet in WoW when I did a kick ass job tanking an instance I would often get people adding me to their friends' lists because it's hard to find a good tank.

 

I never saw the social aspect of dungeon running to be honest, trinity or not it boils down to:

 

1) Get to the boss/encounter.

2) Discuss boss/encounter strategy.

3) Rinse and repeat.

4) Thank people for the group and move on to the next.

 

How is that social? Just using the chat feature to discuss an encounter doesn't make you "social"

 

The only time I am social in MMOs is on Guild Chat, I always make sure to join a popular Guild first thing when I play a game, then make friends and talk on guild chat, run dungeons etc.  In Guild Wars 2 the only time I've been social in a dungeon is when I'm running it with people from my guild who I've already developed a friendship with through being on the same guild...

  mikuniman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 278

2/18/13 10:46:03 AM#45

No thank you Bill, leave the trinity games the way they’ve always been and allow non-trinity to evolve on its own. People choose roles in a trinity for that reason rather than a jack of all trades class model and non-trinity for just the opposite. Having different flavors of gameplay is what it’s all about. I for one do not want to play the same combat model for another 10 years and truly believe there are more ways to play the game. The usual copy and paste mmo is getting old let the devs use their creative insights into something new.

  fdisk81

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 7

2/18/13 10:51:55 AM#46
Originally posted by mikuniman

No thank you Bill, leave the trinity games the way they’ve always been and allow non-trinity to evolve on its own. People choose roles in a trinity for that reason rather than a jack of all trades class model and non-trinity for just the opposite. Having different flavors of gameplay is what it’s all about. I for one do not want to play the same combat model for another 10 years and truly believe there are more ways to play the game. The usual copy and paste mmo is getting old let the devs use their creative insights into something new.

This is a good point, even though I'm a trinity player and I LOVE everything else about Guild Wars 2 I have no right in asking for them to change the game just to cater to me.

 

Thanks to playing Guild Wars 2 I realized how much I love being a tank and just a tank; even though I absolutely love everything else about the game (Lore, Graphics, Music, World, Atmosphere) and as much as it pains me to do so I think I'll just move on to the next game and stop playing it altogether.

 

I definitely got my $60 worth already and whenever I miss it I can go back to it and solo play another class 1-80 since to be honest I only really like it as a single player game at this point.  Once a new expansion comes out I will buy it, solo it once again and then put the game back in the shelf until the next content update.   I can live with that, that's the beauty of it not having a monthly fee; I don't feel guilty for not playing it.

 

Thanks for putting it in perspective.

  GreenLanternFan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 380

2/18/13 11:00:32 AM#47

Amen, brother! Were you reading my mind again, Bill!

 

I was just telling my guildmates in GW2 how I can't wait for Neverwinter and that I miss the Holy Trinity!

 

In GW2 it is more of an every man for themselves mentality. I don't need you -- I can tank! I don't need you either -- I can heal, as well!

 

Aside from PvP and WvW, GW2 encourages players to do everything themselves and I hate that! At that point, you might as well be playing a single-player game rather than an MMO. And, like others have stated, GW2 is a DPS fest!

 

Don't get me wrong, like you, I also believe there is a lot to like about GW2, but I severly miss the desire to group. Due to GW2's approach, I can't recall ever playing an MMO where players were so independent and anti-social.

 

You can run into an event, bag-em and tag-em, then leave without saying as much as a hello to anyone.

 

You can forget about players waiting around to level characters with friends. Just like our society in RL, there's an 'It's all about me' mentality in GW2, as well and it sucks!

 

I play MMOs for the simple reason that I enjoy being part of a group and love accomplishing things as a team.

 

I'm so looking forward to Neverwinter and the group mechanic it brings with it!

 
 
 

Your fail comment, failed.

  fs23otm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/07
Posts: 260

2/18/13 11:01:49 AM#48

A great game design would be:

 

Non-Quest System - GW2

Class Balance and roles - EQ

Crafting - SWG

Housing - Rift

PVP - DAoC

 

All set in the Planescape universe.

 

  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

2/18/13 11:04:17 AM#49
Glad to see games going back to the trinity. Not having a dedicated tank character killed my interest in GW2, among the myriad of other problems I had with it personally.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1369

2/18/13 11:31:47 AM#50
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.

Bunker elementalist forever!

 

I do not agree with anything you have said... with the exception of the Bunker elementalist... only because I have no clue what the hell that means? What dat mean?

 

You spoke earlier of players saying.. Look mom, I'm leet... or something like that... Is this your way of doing the same thing?

  Eolex

Novice Member

Joined: 7/31/04
Posts: 19

2/18/13 11:33:32 AM#51

So Bill mentioned wanted every class to be able to do every role. I think this would be very easy to accomplish in a wow/swtor manner as long as the majority of role specific abilities where tied to the trees and locked out when not playing that role. I'll give some examples. I will control / cc as I think every class should have a form of it available But limit it usefulness to different targets, like Swtor

Warrior- basic defender tank, basic dpi build, uses inspire abilities to "heal" the party, like a warlord in d&d 4.0

rouge- normal rogue stuff for dps, uses salves and potions to heal, evasion tank with things like dirty tricks, shadow dance, distraction, and the like to maintain agro. 

Elements list wizard- uses every element to nuke like normal, for tanking focuses on defense magics ice shields, make copies of himself to intercept party members, stuff like that. For healing, uses Phoenix magic and frost magic to help heal players or freeze condition effects.

monk, Druid, and clerics can follow the wow format, but with more flavor and distractions when in those class roles. 

My point is, if thought about hard enough, every class could fill the trinity roles if enou thought was given to their skill set within each role without breaking class emmersion/ aesthetic feel.

 

 

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

2/18/13 11:37:39 AM#52

It's terrible that there has to be only one way of doing group combat.

Drone drone drone. Tank is going down! what ! ok I was asleep sorry let me hit my big heal. Ok he's back up I will resume rhythmic heal button rotation. Let me set my metronome, k rdy.

I am personally tired of the trinity alone. If a game had certain situations where you went into trinity I would be ok with that, but games buit on dependence to this specialized model make combat too organized.

Chaos is a part of fighting.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Dillig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/04
Posts: 72

2/18/13 11:38:54 AM#53
Originally posted by fs23otm

I don't want the trinity... I was even more role definitions:

Tank

Healer

Puller

Crowd Control

Damage

Debuffer

Buffer

 

EQ got it right in so many ways (POP and before)... it truely had the best class balance and group roles. Groups of 6 and as long as you brought most of the roles your group would flourish. 

I agree 100% with this comment. I loved playing the enchanter in EQ. No other class in any of the games since have given me the excitement and I have played em all.

 

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1369

2/18/13 11:39:05 AM#54
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
no trinity  = easy game mode/asocial game mode

Trinity - EASY ASS MODE - Anti-social game. Using the Trinity DOES NOT make the game social. Everyone knows there roles and someone barks out orders - there is no social aspect to the game at all.

I have played games with the trinity and find them JUST AS anti-social as games without them. Forced grouping does not make a game social - people make the game social.

If you have to have game mechanics to be social in an MMO - go play Skyrim please.

You kind of contradict yourself there... First you say that Trinity is a easy ass mode - anti-social game... then you go on to say that game mechanics do not make the game social... people make the game social...

 

It's really a poor argument that either is "more" anti-social. Anti-social players are going to be the same in any game they play. The same goes for very social gamers. The trinity vs. non-trinity has little to do with asshole players. They will be assholes regardless...lol

  marsh9799

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 101

2/18/13 12:04:37 PM#55

The Trinity was not created by game developers.  The Trinity was created by players who max/min.  It did exist in table tops.  Sure, there were people who played DnD in groups that didn't have the Trinity.  They were inferior to groups that ran the Trinity unless they were running some specifically tailored campaign.

If you are fighting a mob or a group of mobs, you need to survive.  Having a single person take all the damage brings very significant advantages in efficiency.  Players don't like dying and healing is frequently critical to surviving.  So, healing exists.  And you have to kill the mob(s).  That's the Trinity.  Specialization took care of everything else.  That's how it happened.

An open skill set doesn't change this.  You will have people specialize in tanking.  You will have people specialize in healing.  You will have people specialize in damage.  They will be far more efficient and effective than "scrubs" who want to be special.  Cookie cutter talent trees and specs didn't come about because the developers intentionally tried to make it so.  They came about because players ran the numbers, did the parses, did the theorycrafting and determined optimum point placement and optimum ability usage. 

GW2 completely failed to break the Trinity because they essentially eliminated healing and damage roles.  It made for simplistic gameplay and trivialized co-operative gameplay.  If you want to break the Trinity, you need to alter the max/min paradigm which is realistically done by an expansion of roles rather than a contraction- real support roles that are needed, usefulness for hybrids (not the ability to perform either / or roles but partially perform multiple roles simultaneously), and end the homogenization of classes.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2743

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/18/13 12:10:07 PM#56
Originally posted by Kaneth

The fallacy in this thought though, is that people WILL switch to the missing role when needed. Take WoW for example. With both of the previously added classes, Death Knight and Monk, both have tanking roles. Blizzard also added dual-spec options. So you're at a point where you have 5/11 classes have tanking specs, and yet there still is a tank shortage. Yes, you have to obtain gear for your secondary spec, but it's not that difficult to get a workable set of gear while you are perfecting your set for your main role.

The biggest problem with the Trinity, is people. If a group wipes on a boss, tanks and healers are the first to be blamed everytime. Even if the wipe is caused by some DPS doing something very wrong, the tank and healer take the first amount of blame. Tanking and healing have a greater inhereted responsiblity within the dynamic of a group, and frankly that's not a responsibility many folks want in this vicious and vindictive internet we have now.

Additionally, if you made it so that any one could be anything at any given time, then you would open up a whole new can of worms with people whining about how there are no consequences to your choices.

When I play GW2, I don't have to wait for a tank or healer to show up. I don't have to sit around for hours tryng to come up with the perfect assembly of classes to complete a specific task. Frankly, I prefer the way ANet did it, even with it's imperfections.

The trinity isn't a bad design in many regards, but it breaks down more easily than a more open system.

No the biggest problem with the tank shortage and healer shortage is you're  predisposed to killing enemies to level, to complete quests and to do pretty much everything there is to do in the game when combat comes into play.  So the average gamer has been predisposed from character creation to always play a DPS type of class.

 

Fix that problem and you fix the issue with tank/healer shortages.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Kyelthis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 285

2/18/13 12:10:21 PM#57
Originally posted by jtcgs

The trinity is a handicap, it limits games and gameplay and effects every aspect of the game. No thank you, its there for people that find complex characters too difficult to play. I dont need my hand held, I dont need guide rails and I sure as hell dont need someone to tell me what I am or am not supposed to do in a group.

How weak is that...needing someone to define you in everything. bleh.

I highly doubt any game will be able to match a GW2 bunker elementalists difficulty level. But you go on, play your faceroll games and claim to be l33t. ooh look ma, I can heal my group watch, 1, 2, 1, 3, 1, 2

I haz skillz.

 

The trinity works in most MMOs, only those games designed to not have a trinity obviously work well without one. GW2 still has roles, just not a hard-locked trinity.  I enjoy the different take that ANet has gone with, but I'm also looking forward to other MMOs coming out that may end up having a trinity as well.

As for the bunker Ele being difficult, we might be playing a different game because they aren't that hard to play. Stay at a point, bunker a 1v2, laugh as they call for reinforcements or run, profit. Ele is my other main in TPvP alongside my Thief, and I usually play exclusively bunker for my team on my Ele. Not a hard role to fill in my opinion, sorry.

  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

2/18/13 1:38:03 PM#58

I have been around the MMO scene for a long time now, and I'd like to say that I have seen the trend that has put us at the point we are now.

In the early stages of MMO the roles where rather distinct and we mostly could not play if one or 2 roles where missing..examples is basically old Everquest. Everyone was needed for this or that thing.

I played alot of EQ2 and ...the proof of what I'm about to say is in that games development cycle over the years, in the beginning Everquest 2 was very similar to it's older brother Everquest, the solo mentality had crept up alittle bit , so they had outdoor areas with solo content but mostly the dungeons where as hard or rather alike as old EQ.

But as the game didnt do aswell as another very well known game at the time, they started to alter the formula that once made it popular. In a fruitless chase of these players and hope that players would jump ship and change game or that they somehow would get new players since "that game" was so popular for some reason.

They started to add more and more of that meaningless solo content up until they basically released an entire expansion only catered to the solo crowd.  When the fans that actually liked the game and stayed in it for years mostly just suffered by these changes, most players of EQ and EQ2 knows that the fun in these games are to tackle hard content together with other players not only in the form of distinct roles but also in form of cooperation in hunts for your corpse and in EQ2 your soulshard , naturally they took this away after a couple of expansions.

Solo play also requires certain things so It would be possible, It required a more versatile class, a class that had more/less everything.. a small heal, some crowd control and a couple of buffs and ....damage ofcourse..and all the other things that came naturally self regen of mana , health etc .

Back in the day ..these where all class interpendencies, a distinct role gave that player a meaning an identity . Wich now more or less is lost.

I dare to say..In GW2 you have less identity, , since everyone has abit of this and abit of that, everyone is a "jack of all trades" but as a sacrifice of identity and meaning.  Since everyone can do everything you will end up in a world with more anarchy than structure. and It also creates a silent solo world whera noone needs to talk , well since you can do everything there is no need to talk with anyone--Then there comes the point at where you try to group up in one of the few dungeons that GW2 has, and all you are met with is chaos.

I really admire some players of GW2 that has managed to actually create a meaningful structure in this game, but what they did to achive this is ..well they basically gave the diffrent players more strict roles working with the resources they had available to achive a dungeon success without to much death and surge runs like most players end up in. So..basically ..You are back to square one again..with only the most dedicated and good players , just like you had in EQ and EQ2, only those games had it built in their classes from the start and had less "jack of all trades" characthers.

  uller30

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/26/03
Posts: 115

2/18/13 2:31:12 PM#59
The 3 wise man(holy trinity) is hard to fix I think you would need gw2+secrete world kinda game
  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1594

2/18/13 3:14:27 PM#60
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Kaneth

The fallacy in this thought though, is that people WILL switch to the missing role when needed. Take WoW for example. With both of the previously added classes, Death Knight and Monk, both have tanking roles. Blizzard also added dual-spec options. So you're at a point where you have 5/11 classes have tanking specs, and yet there still is a tank shortage. Yes, you have to obtain gear for your secondary spec, but it's not that difficult to get a workable set of gear while you are perfecting your set for your main role.

The biggest problem with the Trinity, is people. If a group wipes on a boss, tanks and healers are the first to be blamed everytime. Even if the wipe is caused by some DPS doing something very wrong, the tank and healer take the first amount of blame. Tanking and healing have a greater inhereted responsiblity within the dynamic of a group, and frankly that's not a responsibility many folks want in this vicious and vindictive internet we have now.

Additionally, if you made it so that any one could be anything at any given time, then you would open up a whole new can of worms with people whining about how there are no consequences to your choices.

When I play GW2, I don't have to wait for a tank or healer to show up. I don't have to sit around for hours tryng to come up with the perfect assembly of classes to complete a specific task. Frankly, I prefer the way ANet did it, even with it's imperfections.

The trinity isn't a bad design in many regards, but it breaks down more easily than a more open system.

No the biggest problem with the tank shortage and healer shortage is you're  predisposed to killing enemies to level, to complete quests and to do pretty much everything there is to do in the game when combat comes into play.  So the average gamer has been predisposed from character creation to always play a DPS type of class.

 

Fix that problem and you fix the issue with tank/healer shortages.

I will have to disagree with this statement. In WoW, when I leveled a tank or healer, I typically didn't have to do so by questing, but rather chaining dungeon runs via LFG because queue times for tanks and healers are extremely short compared to DPS. It's a fairly common way to level, as it can be tremendously faster than questing during certain level ranges.

There are level ranges where questing as a tank is far better than a dps (since you can aoe pull large packs and kill them fairly rapidly). There are also level ranges where questing as a healer is better (Disc priest until 50-60 is quicker than a shadow priest). Additionally, while questing in Pandaria, your rewards are determined by your spec, so many folks I know quested in their preferred spec so they could pre-gear for dungeons. Leveling as a tank or healing spec in WoW isn't really that hard to do.

If you've ever read anything from the official WoW forums, or from many of the Q&A sessions with Ghostcrawler, you would see how the way you level has very little to do with the tank shortage in WoW. However, many of the points I brought up, are consistently discussed in those same venues.

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