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News & Features Discussion  » Neverwinter: The Rant #1 - Fixing the Holy Trinity

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85 posts found
  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1084

2/18/13 9:18:25 AM#21
Fourth Edition D&D rules are D&D reimagined with MMO roles anyway.   Except that the various paragon class decisions could seriously affect the play style.  Don't think Neverwinter is going to start out with quite the adaptability of the PnP version though.  Again, constricted for ease of online computer play.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6656

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

2/18/13 9:18:43 AM#22
Didn't know the holy trinity was broken.
  cybertrucker

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1126

Freeloading mooches are the scourge of the gaming community.

2/18/13 9:23:24 AM#23
I personally believe champions system was one of the best if not the best.
  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

2/18/13 9:24:27 AM#24
Originally posted by Normandy7
Didn't know the holy trinity was broken.

 

To some it is, but expect they just strongly associate the notion of wating around an hour to get a tank or whatever with it and are ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

  fs23otm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/07
Posts: 260

2/18/13 9:26:33 AM#25

I don't want the trinity... I was even more role definitions:

Tank

Healer

Puller

Crowd Control

Damage

Debuffer

Buffer

 

EQ got it right in so many ways (POP and before)... it truely had the best class balance and group roles. Groups of 6 and as long as you brought most of the roles your group would flourish. 

  cybertrucker

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1126

Freeloading mooches are the scourge of the gaming community.

2/18/13 9:32:00 AM#26
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Fourth Edition D&D rules are D&D reimagined with MMO roles anyway.   Except that the various paragon class decisions could seriously affect the play style.  Don't think Neverwinter is going to start out with quite the adaptability of the PnP version though.  Again, constricted for ease of online computer play.

Lol you keep telling yourself this about 4th. Just because so many got caught up in the weekly encounters and forgot that DND CAMPAIGNS  are where the rROLEPLAYING  happens.

What 4th did was make characters seem more epic.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/18/13 9:32:50 AM#27

So the video's "big idea" is three roles per class...(please god, someday let designers and players remember that there were, once, more than 3 roles)

Sounds great, unless you try to figure the odds that any given developer/company wants to work up, oh, a dozen tanking trees, a dozen healing trees, a dozen (three dozen?) dps trees.

The additional (multiplicative) work load required says "nope, not gonna happen that way".

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Skuall

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/05
Posts: 806

2/18/13 9:33:19 AM#28
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

I think the video could've been a bit more informative as to how he would go about it.  Perhaps be more "bold" as he suggested the developers to be.  In that, I'd just flat out say give the players the ability to switch to any of the three tanking, healing or DPS builds without the barrier such as gear or leveling up a new class to get in the way.

If WoW wasn't such a loot based game, it would be as such as right now you can be anyone in the world, click a single button and instantly change what your class does.  You are even able to change your talents in the field now.  The only thing that prevents this is how you have to grind like a mad man/woman for the gear that would make that change useful (often times having to do what you no longer enjoy just to get the gear to do something that you think you would).

If things were made so that stats were given special passives, or abilities to change (or add) to what a specific spec does, it would be a much more fluid system whereby you could be anything anytime you wanted to be in game.  I know they experimented with this and spirit/int/agi etc. adding things to the class such as increased hit if you have one or some such (to alleviate gear problems when you switch to a role that doesn't use it), but I don't think they fleshed it out enough to be as useful as it could be.

In FFXIV: A Realm Reborn they are bringing back the old FFXI system whereby one character is able to max every class in the game.  Though some of the fundamental problems will still be present, as far as I can see.  They are allowing you to switch any class no matter where you are in the world as this video suggests.  Though there is a fundamental flaw that isn't accounted for when doing this.

It's all about balance and what's the most useful.  In the first version of FFXIV people were prtty much required to level both Paladins and Warriors if they wanted to tank; warriors were far more useful for the majority of the content, and still considered to be even after paladins were buffed.  Though there were times that, to be considered a serious tank, you had to have both maxed and switch quickly in dungeons where speed was the key (efficiency speed groups).  No longer could you play the class that you wanted, and instead you were just forced to play the strengths of the classes that were available since you didn't have to go back home to change them.

Consider yourself a paladin?  Too bad, you have to play warrior if you want to tank, and paladins are only good at tanking while warriors can deal out massive DPS in addition to.  Enjoy melee fighting?  Well, play with a linkshell that doesn't care about efficiency, because on this specific fight it's better if you're ranged.  Want to just play a single class?  Get out, newbie... we need you to switch to a class that can clear trash easily for this part.  Play that class on your own time.

I'm hoping they fix these problems in A Realm Reborn, as in practice they bring about new problems as a whole.

:(

u cant blame the players only , the devs need to fix the imbalances melee vs ranged, Warrior vs Paladin , ect

some jobs are better than others in some areas , in Rift for example for trash , the caster with electric spells was just awesome in AOE , and for bosses i went warlock , i didnt mind changing specs, if its faster ... trash is trash anyway , aoe spam and done.

i enjoyed both so i dont mind!

 

same goes for FF , i played as nin , sam , rng , smn , and LS asked me to come as X job , i leveled those jobs because i enjoyed playing it as 1 , if u dont feel like playing ranged ,dont lvl blm / ranger so u arent forced to change

im going to lvl arcanist in FFXIV and is going to be my main job , if i enjoy it of course , but having carby ! :3 ,t gonna level warrior/paladin too, so i can go tank or dps (guess arcanist is going to be dps maybe is a healer >< we dont know anything yet)

my point is , u play what class u enjoy if ppl wan to group with u ok , else look for another group !

the old stigma that X class is so gimped that no1 want to group with is so 2005 (drg in FFXI , some classes in wow vanilla-tbc) but look how mmorpgs are now is rare to see something like that

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/18/13 9:33:24 AM#29
Originally posted by Kaneth

The fallacy in this thought though, is that people WILL switch to the missing role when needed. Take WoW for example. With both of the previously added classes, Death Knight and Monk, both have tanking roles. Blizzard also added dual-spec options. So you're at a point where you have 5/11 classes have tanking specs, and yet there still is a tank shortage. Yes, you have to obtain gear for your secondary spec, but it's not that difficult to get a workable set of gear while you are perfecting your set for your main role.

The biggest problem with the Trinity, is people. If a group wipes on a boss, tanks and healers are the first to be blamed everytime. Even if the wipe is caused by some DPS doing something very wrong, the tank and healer take the first amount of blame. Tanking and healing have a greater inhereted responsiblity within the dynamic of a group, and frankly that's not a responsibility many folks want in this vicious and vindictive internet we have now.

Additionally, if you made it so that any one could be anything at any given time, then you would open up a whole new can of worms with people whining about how there are no consequences to your choices.

When I play GW2, I don't have to wait for a tank or healer to show up. I don't have to sit around for hours tryng to come up with the perfect assembly of classes to complete a specific task. Frankly, I prefer the way ANet did it, even with it's imperfections.

The trinity isn't a bad design in many regards, but it breaks down more easily than a more open system.

I think the problem with tank shortages also has to do with guild and raid structure. A guild will have hundreds of dps, dozens of healers, but only one or two main tanks. This is a huge incentive killer for focusing on your tanking spec. Why bother, there is little to no chance you will get a slot doing what you want to do at the highest level - so people instead focus on something obtainable. 

  User Deleted
2/18/13 9:36:14 AM#30

Geez, one new MMO gets rid of the trinity and all of a sudden we have to rally to save it from extinction?

The trinity isnt going anywhere, some people like it, some people dont. The people that don't like it now have a game that acoomodates to them. Why is this such an issue?

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/18/13 9:41:09 AM#31
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

A good player can play any way he is allowed and they sure as hell dont need a role that has you sitting there pressing a few buttons to play his small "role" in a group...its the very reason why so many people hate GW2, they cant wrap their heads around being able to DPS, Tank, Heal, CC, Buff and Debuff all with the same character and do it all in the same battle. Its just too much for them because they cant break the limits placed on them by the trinity.

Bunker elementalist forever!

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Thourne

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/04
Posts: 88

2/18/13 9:46:46 AM#32

I just can't throw support behind backing up the 3 roll standard.

I still greatly miss the roles we have lost.

My favorite role to play was always CC, follwed closely by a Puller.

Games just became so simple that the tactics that justified these roles inclusion are not even needed.

In short, do not fix the trinity...return to us the roles we lost.

  Benbrada

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/04
Posts: 228

2/18/13 9:48:34 AM#33
Originally posted by Elfahiar

Kaneth wrote:

"The biggest problem with the Trinity, is people. If a group wipes on a boss, tanks and healers are the first to be blamed everytime. Even if the wipe is caused by some DPS doing something very wrong, the tank and healer take the first amount of blame. Tanking and healing have a greater inhereted responsiblity within the dynamic of a group, and frankly that's not a responsibility many folks want in this vicious and vindictive internet we have now."

Man you are my hero, couldn't have said it better myself!

+1

One of the reasons, why I, a casual gamer are fearful of dungeon PUGs with people I don't know.

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

2/18/13 9:52:53 AM#34
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Vesavius

Bill is right here though... in these games class dependence is bad, but role dependence is good.

 Dependence is Dependence and there is nothing good about it. small defined roles were created so bad players can be good, it was meant to expand the games to a larger audience.

 

I am just not so extreme in this as you obviously are, and nor do I want to reduce this debate to 'roles are for noobs'.

I enjoy strong roles because every game I have played that didn't have a heavy use of them (mainly CoH and GW2) the play has been zergy and frustrating, especially when dealing with PUGs.

I get that you are looking at this from a 'pro' viewpoint, but these games *have* to look at a wider audience than the top 10% (or whatever). That's just being realistic. The 'larger audience' is probably why you even have games at this point to say that are 'too easy'.

 

I do not accept that roles equal 'easy mode' though, not by defintion anyhow.

  Benbrada

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/04
Posts: 228

2/18/13 9:54:52 AM#35
Originally posted by Praetalus

 .. I recently played gw2 and to be honest, I hated it. I didn't find it fun and felt like everyone was just running around like crazy bastards unleashing attacks....

I actively play GW2 and I totally agree I've had this feeling as well (of course I've had the same feeling running Alerts recently in DCUO). Perhaps part of it is that the MMO community has changed? Doing pick-up group type of activities no one seems to "chat" or actually formulate a plan of attack or take a "vocal" lead.. especially for content peeps have run a few times. I might do this myself but I tend to be the "newbie" in these content areas.

 

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1221

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

2/18/13 9:55:26 AM#36
Originally posted by Skuall
 

u cant blame the players only , the devs need to fix the imbalances melee vs ranged, Warrior vs Paladin , ect

some jobs are better than others in some areas , in Rift for example for trash , the caster with electric spells was just awesome in AOE , and for bosses i went warlock , i didnt mind changing specs, if its faster ... trash is trash anyway , aoe spam and done.

i enjoyed both so i dont mind!

 

same goes for FF , i played as nin , sam , rng , smn , and LS asked me to come as X job , i leveled those jobs because i enjoyed playing it as 1 , if u dont feel like playing ranged ,dont lvl blm / ranger so u arent forced to change

im going to lvl arcanist in FFXIV and is going to be my main job , if i enjoy it of course , but having carby ! :3 ,t gonna level warrior/paladin too, so i can go tank or dps (guess arcanist is going to be dps maybe is a healer >< we dont know anything yet)

my point is , u play what class u enjoy if ppl wan to group with u ok , else look for another group !

the old stigma that X class is so gimped that no1 want to group with is so 2005 (drg in FFXI , some classes in wow vanilla-tbc) but look how mmorpgs are now is rare to see something like that

 

Not so much in FFXIV.  If you wanted to be a part of an efficient speed group to get points, and you were a tank, you absolutely had to have both Paladin and Warrior leveled.  In addition, most of the time they wanted you to at least be double melded.  The problem with FFXIV when compared to FFXI is that in FFXI you had to find a moogle to change classes.  Here it's on the fly.  In addition, when refering to Rift, we're talking about a single class that is able to become what that class can logically be.  Whether it's a warlock or another type of caster, you're still essentially or at least have the flavor of that initial class choice at the beginning.

With FFXIV it's completely different.  You're able to switch entire classes, and not just specializations that are still at their core what that class is all about.  If talking about WoW, and you're a paladin, there is the choice of a Tank Spec.  A DPS Spec. and a Healing spec.; but at the very core of it you are still what you wanted to be: A Paladin.  The lights, the visuals, the way the attacks feel, the resource system... it's all roughly the same.  Whereas in FFXIV you switch classes out entirely, every ability is deleted and replaced, the visuals are different, the weapon choices, the style of combat... even the artifact armor.  It's all completely gone just so you can become more efficient.

Granted with the implementation of a potential dungeon finder system people won't be as picky, but organized speed run groups will be.  These will be the groups that get equipment the fastest and basically dominate the game in every way.  It's in part the whole "get what you put into it", but still with the problem that you aren't your own class -- you're just a character that's a jack of all trades that can adapt to any situation.  In FFXI I primarily considered myself a Paladin.  In WoW, I'm whatever class I am for that expansion (and the specs. therein).  But in FFXIV?  I just feel like a mercenary of sorts with no class to define myself.  Just an "adventurer" as they put it.

It really hurts if you like enjoying just one class and don't want to play any others, but are needed to by people.  In addition, with the ability to switch so readily, people might even start asking others to switch even after a group is made.  Indeed, and can you imagine simply lying to people who are in your group about what you do and don't have leveled just because you don't want to play another class?  One should be proud of what they've accomplished, not hiding behind things so they just aren't subjected to other's viewpoints on the matter at hand.  

:(

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 883

2/18/13 9:59:38 AM#37
no trinity  = easy game mode/asocial game mode

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  QSatu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1765

2/18/13 10:02:21 AM#38
Originally posted by evilastro

Geez, one new MMO gets rid of the trinity and all of a sudden we have to rally to save it from extinction?

The trinity isnt going anywhere, some people like it, some people dont. The people that don't like it now have a game that acoomodates to them. Why is this such an issue?

Basically this. People say that all mmos are the same. When an mmo tries something different they are bad and should stick to what has been done before.

 

Besides that gW2 has roles. Here look: a tank in GW2. It works differently but it's there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_bIqwtB-fw

  kyssari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 159

"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.

2/18/13 10:02:58 AM#39

Personally I actually miss the days of "Quad"inity? Yeah, not just trinity but when we actually had 4 Roles in any good group. Oldschool EQ we had your typical Tank Heal and DPS but on top of that you had to have a Support class to, typically a shaman or enchanter, for mob debuffs (mainly slows) and/or cc. Groups were 6 man so made it little easier since you still get 2 DPS in there even with that 4th role to fill. When you add on top of that the vastly superior number of available classes to any modern day mmo out there the game was just far more flexibile and fun imo.

 

I recently started playing Vanguard which is also oldschool and the same people who started EQ and boy am I having a blast. 19 Races and 15 Classes to choose from is something I've seriously missed over the years as well as the ability to play a support/dps class.

  shadowkras

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/09
Posts: 11

2/18/13 10:22:51 AM#40

They didnt have a taunt or "aggro", but standing on front and dishing out damage was pretty much what a tank was for. They served the same purpose.

You had your healer, your big damage dealers and your warrior, that had a ton of health and survived most melee attackers with ease.

 

Doesnt matter the mechanics behind the system, the trinity was there.

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