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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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421 posts found
  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2395

2/16/13 9:51:44 PM#361
Originally posted by cybertrucker

So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

 

The issue with GW2 classes is not the lack of holy trinity it that only dps is effective. Speching for cc/buffs/healing/tanky are all worthless you gain far more from increasing your dps... so instead of a hybrid system they have a system that only allows you to effectively dps. IE bad design/ balance and note this is purposeful there were many classes in beta that had tank dps and healing classes or dps and buffing roles ... little bet of everything totaly like they intially sold the system. But there action have been that of nerffing any role other than dps into uslessness.

So Holy trinity is not nessesary, but diversity and depth of combat are and when your onyl real option is dps.... your class system and combat become shallower.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/16/13 10:02:21 PM#362
Originally posted by Jetrpg
Originally posted by cybertrucker

So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

 

The issue with GW2 classes is not the lack of holy trinity it that only dps is effective. Speching for cc/buffs/healing/tanky are all worthless you gain far more from increasing your dps... so instead of a hybrid system they have a system that only allows you to effectively dps. IE bad design/ balance and note this is purposeful there were many classes in beta that had tank dps and healing classes or dps and buffing roles ... little bet of everything totaly like they intially sold the system. But there action have been that of nerffing any role other than dps into uslessness.

So Holy trinity is not nessesary, but diversity and depth of combat are and when your onyl real option is dps.... your class system and combat become shallower.

this is completely false.. i run my mesmer mostly in the support role with staff and find myself one of the most effective people in dungeon runs.. i can't count how many times I kept us going with my illusions and picking up a couple clutch rezzes. Most issues i see in this game in regards to playing a more support role is really a L2P issue as people can't grasp the fact you need to play mutliple roles constantly to really be effective in combat(especially dungeons) sure you can just go around being dps if you like but you are really gimping the group overall in doing so

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Maroxad

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/12
Posts: 28

2/17/13 9:49:34 AM#363

While I see nothing wrong with a role system, I can't stand the holy trinity. It makes combat too stale and predictable, I wouldnt even call it teamwork for most of the part. I just mind my own business (keep mobs on me and use skills to mitigate as much damage as possible) and let the other players do their part. As long as their numbers are high enough, they are smart enough not to stand in the fire and they use that class utility skill or 2 I dont care what they do.

Now, if the threat mechanics were removed, things like positioning, formations and proper tactics (I do not consider "don't stand in the fire" proper tactics) may suddenly become important. As for GW2, the encounters feel like they were designed around the mechanics of the trinity, but were put in a game where the trinity does not exist. Execution is one of the most important things of any game, sadly, I feel that GW2 was not all that well executed.

  Laserwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 2369

2/17/13 10:58:37 AM#364
As a UO MMO fan I always considered myself rather anti-trinity since it is something that was closely tied with class-based games instead of skill-based, but after playing GW2, I realize it wasn't such a bad system afterall. I miss being the class no one wants to play but everyone wants in their group and you just don't have that with a game like GW2 where everyone pretty much heals themselves. Of course ideally I'd prefer a skill-based MMO where you'd have to sacrifice combat or defensive skills for healing skills which still works under a Trinity System but with more flexibility. Until then, I'd kind of like Trinity back.

  cybertrucker

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1135

Freeloading mooches are the scourge of the gaming community.

 
OP  2/17/13 11:01:24 AM#365
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/17/13 11:03:30 AM#366
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

2/17/13 4:35:59 PM#367
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.

 

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3174

I actually still like MMORPGs

2/17/13 4:38:11 PM#368
Death to the trinity

  Ezhae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 735

2/17/13 4:41:44 PM#369
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.

 

See the difference is while you do not have to rely on others to get stuff done, proper team work actually makes everything go easier, faster and overall smoother. Sure in a group of 5 each fo you can be pressing your own buttons not minding the other, but same time a group of 5 players playing together will steamroll through same ocntent in a fraction of time, because theyw ill use combo fields, they will support eachother, they will combo their utility skills, etc. 

I don't long for waiting forever to find a competent tank or healer when none of the guild ones are online, that's just boring and makes things even worse when said tank or healer emo quits because he didn't get the lewts he wanted. Seen that enough. 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/17/13 4:47:46 PM#370
Originally posted by Ezhae
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others.

 

See the difference is while you do not have to rely on others to get stuff done, proper team work actually makes everything go easier, faster and overall smoother. Sure in a group of 5 each fo you can be pressing your own buttons not minding the other, but same time a group of 5 players playing together will steamroll through same ocntent in a fraction of time, because theyw ill use combo fields, they will support eachother, they will combo their utility skills, etc. 

I don't long for waiting forever to find a competent tank or healer when none of the guild ones are online, that's just boring and makes things even worse when said tank or healer emo quits because he didn't get the lewts he wanted. Seen that enough. 

exactly and you can see this in action in dungeons.. watch 5 people who just roll their face on the keyboard and watch them get frustrated and rage quit.. find 5 people who know the combat and know how to change up roles on the fly and support each other and themselves and watch them roll through every dungeon in the game

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Agent_Joseph

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 967

2/17/13 4:54:34 PM#371
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role


mmorpg without trinity is easy,dumber,bored,without  brain,gameplay,not need coordination,not need talk ...just only hit...only class there is dps nothing else... brw ,it is action shooter not rpg at final(I am not talking only about GW2, non trinity is long time in another games  as  STO )

 

 

 

 

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/17/13 5:04:04 PM#372
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role


mmorpg without trinity is easy,dumber,bored,without  brain,gameplay,not need coordination,not need talk ...just only hit...only class there is dps nothing else... brw ,it is action shooter not rpg at final(I am not talking only about GW2, non trinity is long time in another games  as  STO )

 

 

 

 

mmos without trinity needs entire groups who are actually competent players not just tank + healer as dps in holy trinity can many times just go on auto pilot most the time(depending how its implemented).. non trinity requires much more skill all around to complete challenges than a trinity based game in my experience.. what strategy or coordination  is required to complete pretty much any dungeon in holy trinity based games outside raid coordination? As long as everyone plays there roll and is decent at it majority is so easy you hardly need to pay any attention at all in many cases.. also of course there is much more than just dps, if you honestly think there is just dps you don't know the system at all in gw2. In gw2 you need to know how to switch roles on the fly and take care of yourself and your team at any given moment.. makes for some much more exciting and varied gameplay in my experience

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/17/13 5:15:57 PM#373
Originally posted by laokoko

how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others. 

 Go read some of the threads on "elitist jerks"...they cant figure it out because its beyond them and they SCREAM at people in the video posts where people are ACTUALLY DOING IT as if the video is FAKED.

You say "zerg" mentality, but that is because YOU CANT FIGURE IT OUT.

My guild has CONSTANT HoT and HAoE's going on our DPSers, and we are dropping buffs/debuffs continually. There is no zerg, you have a zerg because being able to switch between 4 builds is beyond you, you are trained to have a set role, you need to break that in order to get GW2 combat. And that is a great thing for those that like the game, it increases the quality of the playerbase.

I will never go back to WoW clones, far too limiting and predictable. GW2 is a place that will be dominated by guilds with actual skill.

I have yet to experience anything in an MMORPG like watching someone that thinks he can play an Elemental suddenly see one jump between all 4 elements continually, staying healed, doing DPS, CCing and tanking all at the same time while healing and buffing his group, debuffing the enemy.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 650

2/17/13 5:27:51 PM#374
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Quirhid

A good AI challenges you. It makes you think. This was the role of the GM in P&P games. Holy trinity just makes you go on autopilot. I'm at a point where I am willing to try anything other than that horrible, horrible system.

I think it''s less about a trinity of roles (keep in mind that I'm for a "soft" trinity or just about anything where one can have a focus on some sort of role) and what you said in that it's more about AI and how these encounters play out. You can have definite roles and still have complex fights but as you put it, the AI needs to be adaptive, intelligent, and more than rinse and repeat encounters.

Part of this is that mmo devs have completely gone down the simplification rabbit hole. I agree that just having a Tank shouting and keeping aggro and then the Damage dealers burning down the enemy (and for "some" reason they don't mind this) and then a healer to fill up a Tank is horrible. And it does contribute to Auto Pilot. But that has nothing to do with the stalwart warrior protectingg those who are not tough but who wield arcane powers or who skirt the fight waitting for moments of opportunity.

I play a tank in Tera, a game that does have roles, and it was quite refreshing for the 30 foot tall Baddie go for the healer, I couldn't get aggro so I charged across the room, putting myself between it and the healer, shield slammed it and then turned to throw out a chain and lpull a mob to me that was charging for another player in the group. It wasn't about being the tank and soaking damage as opposed to being an active participant in the fight. Which is mor e to my taste.

Part of this is also a group of players who are more interested in "leveling fast" and getting good loot. Therefore the entire experience has come down to a simplified skinner box.

take quest, run to glowy area on map, kill 10 things, run back to other glowy area on map, turn in quest, get reward, rinse and repeat.

As opposed to allowing players to explore, search, scout, find their objectives, fight if need be and during that fight they excercise their specializations that, because they work together, they are greater than their own individual contributions.

 

There is of course a simple fix.  Create a game where there is an advantage for the mellee classes to form a protective line between the MOBs and the ranged DPS.  No tank turns MOB  everyone runs behind MOB and forms a puppy pile (AKA stacks). Do this and there is no need to taunt the MOB off, the MOBs are facing the group.

Of course that means no 1 shot frontal attacks, or at least giving some classes the ability to shield the whole group from them.

  Grunim

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/01/10
Posts: 103

2/17/13 5:40:30 PM#375

I'm loving the hybrid approach in GW2.   In other MMOs I tended to pick the class which offered more of a hybrid style.  For example, in Aion I loved the chanter class where sometimes I handled the primary healing, sometimes I was the buffer, sometimes I took over as tank.

I definitely want more hybrid options in MMOs and not just the holy trinity. 

 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

2/17/13 5:43:41 PM#376
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by laokoko

how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others. 

 Go read some of the threads on "elitist jerks"...they cant figure it out because its beyond them and they SCREAM at people in the video posts where people are ACTUALLY DOING IT as if the video is FAKED.

You say "zerg" mentality, but that is because YOU CANT FIGURE IT OUT.

My guild has CONSTANT HoT and HAoE's going on our DPSers, and we are dropping buffs/debuffs continually. There is no zerg, you have a zerg because being able to switch between 4 builds is beyond you, you are trained to have a set role, you need to break that in order to get GW2 combat. And that is a great thing for those that like the game, it increases the quality of the playerbase.

I will never go back to WoW clones, far too limiting and predictable. GW2 is a place that will be dominated by guilds with actual skill.

I have yet to experience anything in an MMORPG like watching someone that thinks he can play an Elemental suddenly see one jump between all 4 elements continually, staying healed, doing DPS, CCing and tanking all at the same time while healing and buffing his group, debuffing the enemy.

yea someone who can master elementalist is an amazing site.. I myself don't have the reflexes to pull off what I have seen some do in PVP. I on a whole don't mind trinity roles but I just don't enjoy pigeon holed classes.. I think Rift is a great example of how to do the trinity well and even they added a 4th role as well and allowed every class to play multiple roles and switch between them easily.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

2/18/13 1:59:57 AM#377
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by laokoko

how is the GW2 or non trinity combat system harder to pick up? 

People just don't like the "zerg" mentality.  Since everyone can do anything and be anything, they dont' need to rely on others. 

 Go read some of the threads on "elitist jerks"...they cant figure it out because its beyond them and they SCREAM at people in the video posts where people are ACTUALLY DOING IT as if the video is FAKED.

You say "zerg" mentality, but that is because YOU CANT FIGURE IT OUT.

My guild has CONSTANT HoT and HAoE's going on our DPSers, and we are dropping buffs/debuffs continually. There is no zerg, you have a zerg because being able to switch between 4 builds is beyond you, you are trained to have a set role, you need to break that in order to get GW2 combat. And that is a great thing for those that like the game, it increases the quality of the playerbase.

I will never go back to WoW clones, far too limiting and predictable. GW2 is a place that will be dominated by guilds with actual skill.

I have yet to experience anything in an MMORPG like watching someone that thinks he can play an Elemental suddenly see one jump between all 4 elements continually, staying healed, doing DPS, CCing and tanking all at the same time while healing and buffing his group, debuffing the enemy.

Well what you say may be very true.  But in specific to GW2 it is a zerg for "pve".  Because of the rally and rezing mechanic.  You can't argue with me that the rallying/downed stats/resing mechenic is zergy.  Even after they remove the WP rush it does felt like a zerg.  In the trinity setup, everything is very specific and technicle.  Everyone have to do specific thing and time it perfectly.  That is not what happen in GW2.  At least for pve.  I dont' pvp much so I can't talk about it. 

For all I know, the pve part of GW2 dont' require me to be in a vent the whole time to do well.  I can't say the same about other trinity setup game because they are much more techinicle.

But I do think the non trinity setup can be more techinicle.  If Anet twich the combo mechanic and make it more meaninful, it can become one of the most techinicle game out there.  I mean I watched people pvp in GW2, and it does indeed require some sort of timing of combo field and finisher to perform well.  But for pve, not so much. 

And another problem is there are actually role in GW2.  And some class out perform other class because they are better suited for their roll.  Guardian is the best defensive class, warrior is the best dps class, memser is the best support, and for pvp I believe certain class outperform for specific purpose.  I dont' really pvp but I think for example elementist is the best bunker?  So I think GW2 have some balance issue.  If they remove trinity, everyone should be able to do everything equally.  That is certainly not the case for GW2.

Button line to me is I won't say non trinity mechanic is more zergy.  But for GW2 in specific I do felt it is zergy.  If the day comes when i need to be in vent to time my combo field and finisher to successfully do well in GW2 dungeon I'll take back that opinion.

I'll put it this way, when you are on your elementist giving constant aoe and hots buff debuff what not, do you ever need to stop and communicate with your guildmates? 

And no, I'm not a supporter of the trinity.  I like non trinity better.  But for GW2, the combat mehcanic just isn't techinical at all.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

2/18/13 2:13:44 AM#378
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph


mmorpg without trinity is easy,dumber,bored,without  brain,gameplay,not need coordination,not need talk ...just only hit...only class there is dps nothing else... brw ,it is action shooter not rpg at final(I am not talking only about GW2, non trinity is long time in another games  as  STO )

Uhm, the trinity gives you a specific role so you will always know what to do. As long as the tank do his job well the DPS will only have to worry about do the right amount of damage (often staying in the same spot while rotating keys) and the healer to keep the tank alive.

That is the single dunbest and easiest system possible.

The trinity was invented by a few amateurs for the first  "real" MMO, Meridian 59. Just assuming that they invented the perfect system from the start seems rather arrogant to me.

Guildwars 2 system is indeed far from perfect and the group dynamics of it could be a lot better. It is still more interesting than trinity games like Wow though since I have to react a lot more and adapt to the situation around me. Saying that it just is DPS is simplifying things.

Future MMOs will need a new group mechanic that is more flexible and that demands more from each player than what we seen in any previous game. MMOs should be about working together, strategy and adapting to new situations fast. It should be about wits, not skill rotations and the trinity have been taken as far as it is possible now.

There are more choices than just action shooter and skill rotations.

  Varthander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/07
Posts: 471

Forum ranks are useless.

2/18/13 2:14:41 AM#379
As long as i can move while fighting i have no problem, what i cant just return to its at the old  "stay where you are" combat sistem. The trinity its not bad, its just more tedious when playing in groups, plus it requires all the members to know their class well enough to be usefull. 

  Draemos

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1477

2/20/13 5:06:31 AM#380
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by cybertrucker
Its interesting to see that The trinity is kicking the crap out of the non trinity. on the poll currently.

not suprising.. people are afraid to learn new things and are generally set in their ways.. if something new isn't easy for many to pick up they just write it off and wish they had what they know back. Also some feel they need that comfort of having a defined class role

Bullshit.  Do this poll 2 years ago and it would be 90-10 in favor of non-trinity.  People have experienced the alternatives and simply do not like them. They don't work as well, and no amount of elitism asshattery will change that.

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