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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » forced to start over for new classes/horrible, anyone agree?

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  User Deleted
2/17/13 1:54:08 PM#41
Originally posted by sxvs

 

yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.

an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?

or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.

it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?

or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.

it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.

 

as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.

but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.

Well the issue with levels is that they are a measure of power, and also progression that you can see as player, without compromising your character's appeance. Such as how you place armor/weapon/gear as progression you take away some ofthe customization of the character, since you now need to be wearing that certain gear (regardleess of how much you like the look or not.) to do that content. Yet in the same way levels also show you how skilled someone is in ways, such as how someone trained to survive in the wild will have a much higher chance of surviving compared to a novice.  In this way i would lvoe to see less of a fact of leveling a class, and more leveling aspects of a class might be more interesting. Such as a each class has several talents/profiencies in it that affect different parts of the classes duty or such (kinda like how a scientist specilize in different areas of study, and so woud fair differntly in them), kinda like talent trees . Also though like i said levels for many are a form of ruler that they gauge how they are progressing. 

 

Also in ways i can see how level-based zones would make sense in that even on earth areas can be labeled in a scale of dangerousness. Such as how places near large population can be seen as quite protected an easy to survive in, while as you move farther away from population centters the diffulculty of surviving an also how dangerous the animals are increases. The issue i see though is not that zones have levels that make them worthless to upper-levels, but that you have no incentive or reasons to return to older content an zones. THings like having hidden high-level areas or instances within lower level zones, dynamic zones that as you level thru the game change allowing them to stay worthwhile longer.  I just think that content both zones,a nd instances need to have more varied about of levels that have reasons to go in, such as parts that are actually used by higher levels, hidden contnet, and like i said dynamic factors that make it not level 1-15 content by 1-15, 30-45,a nd cap content as well.

 

Alot of the time when you make things simple people will find the perfect builds that will make everythign else sub-par, while complexity gives alot of options an also variation in playstyles without adding stand-alone things later. Mind you both systems will have people finding their optimal speccs or builds, it is more of a fact of how much fun and interesting aspects can be seeded in the system to keep people from jsut using the min-max builds, or just finding the system boring. I find many people love a simple system yet also that they find it some what bland, and in ways constraining as you have in many ways finite options for how to play (i was a D&D, and other such table top game layer.), and so the more variables that you can play off alot of the time the fun it will be longer.

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

2/17/13 1:57:31 PM#42
In most MMO's I've enjoyed one of my favorite aspects was rolling alts. I like the feeling of having entirely different race/class combinations and the uniqueness (if done correctly) each character offers. I enjoy playing a dark elf necromancer some days, leveling up in their side of the world and through their quests, and having the option to play the good human paladin and experiencing what playing that character in their land has to offer on other days. I would be bored in having one character that could be everything but to each his own. 

  sxvs

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 112

 
OP  2/17/13 2:01:10 PM#43
Originally posted by Oldskoo
In most MMO's I've enjoyed one of my favorite aspects was rolling alts. I like the feeling of having entirely different race/class combinations and the uniqueness (if done correctly) each character offers. I enjoy playing a dark elf necromancer some days, leveling up in their side of the world and through their quests, and having the option to play the good human paladin and experiencing what playing that character in their land has to offer on other days. I would be bored in having one character that could be everything but to each his own. 

 

fair enough, i can understand that.

you could still do that however, you wouldn't be forced to only playing the one character like we're now forced into starting over.

you might be at the disadvantage of having to logoff and get on your alts compared to those being able to switch without logging off tbut at least both options exist.

if it had to be the other way around i'd be fine to be at a disadvantage with having only the 1 character as long as i actually had the choice.

 

  goozmania

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 118

2/17/13 2:01:48 PM#44

I disagree. Having everyone capable of being everything makes group and raid play difficult, particularly for those who are forced to play with greedy people. Where in a regular class based game, a single character is a member of a raiding guild and he obviously only seeks equipment for his class; but this was much different in FFXI, where everyone seemed to want everything... Sure, you could force a player to only roll/bid for gear for the job in which he applied to his linkshell with, but this often caused drama like "I just wanted to play job C, but roll on Job A" or "I was only playing Job B, because ____ said we needed one" etc... Nevermind the ease of which people could cheat on their linkshells by simply equipping others; FFXI facilitated selfishness and greed.

At least FFXI still had job distinction, though. Games where everyone has access to all skills at all times... I think those are simply solo games, and should stay that way.

  Sideras

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/04
Posts: 236

2/17/13 2:04:25 PM#45
I usualy stop playing when I'm forced to start over for new horrible.
  sxvs

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 112

 
OP  2/17/13 2:09:21 PM#46
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by sxvs
 

 

but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

no one is special because "everyone is special".

 

 

well, you couldn't do all of that... there would be some restrictions.

i forget how exactly ffxi did it but i don't think you could switch like that within battle or anything.

you couldn't like pvp and be a mage and switch to something else in combat i don't think, it's been a while since i played so it's a bit foggy on the restrictions but i believe there was some sort of restriction where you couldn't do everything.

 

you had to return to a home base or something to activate a new class.

 

 

  sxvs

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 112

 
OP  2/17/13 2:13:29 PM#47
Originally posted by Asuran24
Originally posted by sxvs

 

yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.

an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?

or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.

it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?

or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.

it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.

 

as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.

but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.

Well the issue with levels is that they are a measure of power, and also progression that you can see as player, without compromising your character's appeance. Such as how you place armor/weapon/gear as progression you take away some ofthe customization of the character, since you now need to be wearing that certain gear (regardleess of how much you like the look or not.) to do that content. Yet in the same way levels also show you how skilled someone is in ways, such as how someone trained to survive in the wild will have a much higher chance of surviving compared to a novice.  In this way i would lvoe to see less of a fact of leveling a class, and more leveling aspects of a class might be more interesting. Such as a each class has several talents/profiencies in it that affect different parts of the classes duty or such (kinda like how a scientist specilize in different areas of study, and so woud fair differntly in them), kinda like talent trees . Also though like i said levels for many are a form of ruler that they gauge how they are progressing. 

 

Also in ways i can see how level-based zones would make sense in that even on earth areas can be labeled in a scale of dangerousness. Such as how places near large population can be seen as quite protected an easy to survive in, while as you move farther away from population centters the diffulculty of surviving an also how dangerous the animals are increases. The issue i see though is not that zones have levels that make them worthless to upper-levels, but that you have no incentive or reasons to return to older content an zones. THings like having hidden high-level areas or instances within lower level zones, dynamic zones that as you level thru the game change allowing them to stay worthwhile longer.  I just think that content both zones,a nd instances need to have more varied about of levels that have reasons to go in, such as parts that are actually used by higher levels, hidden contnet, and like i said dynamic factors that make it not level 1-15 content by 1-15, 30-45,a nd cap content as well.

 

Alot of the time when you make things simple people will find the perfect builds that will make everythign else sub-par, while complexity gives alot of options an also variation in playstyles without adding stand-alone things later. Mind you both systems will have people finding their optimal speccs or builds, it is more of a fact of how much fun and interesting aspects can be seeded in the system to keep people from jsut using the min-max builds, or just finding the system boring. I find many people love a simple system yet also that they find it some what bland, and in ways constraining as you have in many ways finite options for how to play (i was a D&D, and other such table top game layer.), and so the more variables that you can play off alot of the time the fun it will be longer.

 

correct me if i'm wrong but i think the summary of that is options, more options.

not wanting there to be 1 simple way you were forced into but a multitude of options available to.

i'm all for that! the main thing i want more of in mmo's is options/choices!

  User Deleted
2/17/13 2:15:01 PM#48
Originally posted by goozmania

I disagree. Having everyone capable of being everything makes group and raid play difficult, particularly for those who are forced to play with greedy people. Where in a regular class based game, a single character is a member of a raiding guild and he obviously only seeks equipment for his class; but this was much different in FFXI, where everyone seemed to want everything... Sure, you could force a player to only roll/bid for gear for the job in which he applied to his linkshell with, but this often caused drama like "I just wanted to play job C, but roll on Job A" or "I was only playing Job B, because ____ said we needed one" etc... Nevermind the ease of which people could cheat on their linkshells by simply equipping others; FFXI facilitated selfishness and greed.

At least FFXI still had job distinction, though. Games where everyone has access to all skills at all times... I think those are simply solo games, and should stay that way.

Though you could also make it that gear is useful for all classes/builds in that all stats have a largely equal effect on your character in many ways, this way when you go into a instance it is about what is needed to complete the content, while having the gear you gain useful for all involved that way everyone has a shot at gear from a run (the issue that some gear types normally are more offen seen such as dps gear compared to healing or tanking gear). Although you could also make it that you gain speclized gear from your role by hhaving it crafted/upgraded by crafters, so you get generic gear item A largely has all stats needed for any class, and then with soem mats crafter bob shifts the generic item's focus to what the person desires. 

 

Though all systems have issues, a single character system that allows you to swtch out your character between many clases allows you to fill what is needed in content without having to spend extra time grinding/leveling, yet makes all gear appealing for that player to grab as they can use it for anythign they are playing largely.. WHile in a fixed one class per character system the gear is less likely to be taken by someone who is not of that class, but it is also less likely to see certain less liked classes as well (such as tanks or healer, even supporters.) since specific classes/roles are more liked than others. Even in a class-less system you had the issue that players can see use for all gear they see, as they can switch to a role or specc that utilizes it in some way, allowing them to fill more roles (ala tsw.). 

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

2/17/13 2:17:10 PM#49
Originally posted by sxvs
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by sxvs
 

 

but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

no one is special because "everyone is special".

 

 

well, you couldn't do all of that... there would be some restrictions.

i forget how exactly ffxi did it but i don't think you could switch like that within battle or anything.

you couldn't like pvp and be a mage and switch to something else in combat i don't think, it's been a while since i played so it's a bit foggy on the restrictions but i believe there was some sort of restriction where you couldn't do everything.

 

you had to return to a home base or something to activate a new class.

You had to return to mog house, in FFXIV you change anywhere as long as you are not engaged.

 

Of course no where could you do what Sovrath is describing (changing in the middle of combat), and if he never saw anyone switch to an alt in an MMO to do certain content I imagine he hasn't been playing MMO's for very long (or in groups with others at least).

 

No one is "special" in an MMO.  Some people have progressed to a certain point that others haven't, whether it is through alts or jobs that person has more options available to them.  Some games just force people to have to create new characters and redo a bunch of extraneous content not at all tied to different jobs.

 

It is extremely tedious, but then most MMO's have such little or poor quality mid game content that they probably want to do everything possible to discourage you from experiencing it again as a different class.

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  User Deleted
2/17/13 2:20:53 PM#50
Originally posted by sxvs
Originally posted by Asuran24
Originally posted by sxvs

 

yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.

an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?

or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.

it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?

or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.

it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.

 

as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.

but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.

Well the issue with levels is that they are a measure of power, and also progression that you can see as player, without compromising your character's appeance. Such as how you place armor/weapon/gear as progression you take away some ofthe customization of the character, since you now need to be wearing that certain gear (regardleess of how much you like the look or not.) to do that content. Yet in the same way levels also show you how skilled someone is in ways, such as how someone trained to survive in the wild will have a much higher chance of surviving compared to a novice.  In this way i would lvoe to see less of a fact of leveling a class, and more leveling aspects of a class might be more interesting. Such as a each class has several talents/profiencies in it that affect different parts of the classes duty or such (kinda like how a scientist specilize in different areas of study, and so woud fair differntly in them), kinda like talent trees . Also though like i said levels for many are a form of ruler that they gauge how they are progressing. 

 

Also in ways i can see how level-based zones would make sense in that even on earth areas can be labeled in a scale of dangerousness. Such as how places near large population can be seen as quite protected an easy to survive in, while as you move farther away from population centters the diffulculty of surviving an also how dangerous the animals are increases. The issue i see though is not that zones have levels that make them worthless to upper-levels, but that you have no incentive or reasons to return to older content an zones. THings like having hidden high-level areas or instances within lower level zones, dynamic zones that as you level thru the game change allowing them to stay worthwhile longer.  I just think that content both zones,a nd instances need to have more varied about of levels that have reasons to go in, such as parts that are actually used by higher levels, hidden contnet, and like i said dynamic factors that make it not level 1-15 content by 1-15, 30-45,a nd cap content as well.

 

Alot of the time when you make things simple people will find the perfect builds that will make everythign else sub-par, while complexity gives alot of options an also variation in playstyles without adding stand-alone things later. Mind you both systems will have people finding their optimal speccs or builds, it is more of a fact of how much fun and interesting aspects can be seeded in the system to keep people from jsut using the min-max builds, or just finding the system boring. I find many people love a simple system yet also that they find it some what bland, and in ways constraining as you have in many ways finite options for how to play (i was a D&D, and other such table top game layer.), and so the more variables that you can play off alot of the time the fun it will be longer.

 

correct me if i'm wrong but i think the summary of that is options, more options.

not wanting there to be 1 simple way you were forced into but a multitude of options available to.

i'm all for that! the main thing i want more of in mmo's is options/choices!

Oh yes i am always an advocate of option, and choices in areas that they make sense in, though in other areas i think a stringent hold on keeping thigns very structured an controlled is needed too. Such as with class blances, how people in their roles can contribute to a group, and just how you act in a game too.

 

Well one reason i knwo many make you re-roll is to keep the population in the pre-cap level higher than if you did not have to, as new players need people to play with too, as well that the more the content is played the more it pays off how much it cost (both money, and time/man-power) to create it (like how older raid content  was not seen ny as many of the players in the game which lead to many seeing it as a waste of man-power till they opened it up to more people. So also in a one character all class concept you will need to find more ways of keeping pre-cap content populated.

  sxvs

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 112

 
OP  2/17/13 2:23:26 PM#51
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by sxvs
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by sxvs
 

 

but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?

and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?

that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from  his classes, i would think.

Because during game play you can't launch a series of fireballs, decimate the front ranks and then jump in with your sword devastating those who hid behind cover, then use your expert lock picking skills to open the greatest safe ever made.

As you say, ou'd have to log in on all your characters to do it. And that's just ridiculous. How many times will someone have to log in and out and in again just to make it through an encounter? Most likely they will take their one character through and make due with their party members.

To me, having one character doing everyting  is "everything but the kitchen sink" design.

no one is special because "everyone is special".

 

 

well, you couldn't do all of that... there would be some restrictions.

i forget how exactly ffxi did it but i don't think you could switch like that within battle or anything.

you couldn't like pvp and be a mage and switch to something else in combat i don't think, it's been a while since i played so it's a bit foggy on the restrictions but i believe there was some sort of restriction where you couldn't do everything.

 

you had to return to a home base or something to activate a new class.

You had to return to mog house, in FFXIV you change anywhere as long as you are not engaged.

 

Of course no where could you do what Sovrath is describing (changing in the middle of combat), and if he never saw anyone switch to an alt in an MMO to do certain content I imagine he hasn't been playing MMO's for very long (or in groups with others at least).

 

No one is "special" in an MMO.  Some people have progressed to a certain point that others haven't, whether it is through alts or jobs that person has more options available to them.  Some games just force people to have to create new characters and redo a bunch of extraneous content not at all tied to different jobs.

 

It is extremely tedious, but then most MMO's have such little or poor quality mid game content that they probably want to do everything possible to discourage you from experiencing it again as a different class.

 

furthermore i think it's actually more "special" to spend all time with your 1 character.

when i quit ffxi i actually cried, i'm not ashamed to admit because i spent all of my time with this 1 taru-taru character and built such a bond with the character over 2 and a half years.

never cared as much for a character in an mmo than i did with that one.

i think it actually makes it less special to have 6 different characters or whatever versus 1 character.

 

in comparison i recently quit warcraft after like 6-7 years and probably a hundred alts at least and didn't care anything about any of them really... just basically quit the game without much of a bang.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17203

2/17/13 2:24:34 PM#52
Originally posted by Murugan
 

You had to return to mog house, in FFXIV you change anywhere as long as you are not engaged.

 

Of course no where could you do what Sovrath is describing (changing in the middle of combat), and if he never saw anyone switch to an alt in an MMO to do certain content I imagine he hasn't been playing MMO's for very long (or in groups with others at least).

 

No one is "special" in an MMO.  Some people have progressed to a certain point that others haven't, whether it is through alts or jobs that person has more options available to them.  Some games just force people to have to create new characters and redo a bunch of extraneous content not at all tied to different jobs.

 

It is extremely tedious, but then most MMO's have such little or poor quality mid game content that they probably want to do everything possible to discourage you from experiencing it again as a different class.

 I'm commenting on the idea, lieu of the "mog house" idea and wanting to allow greater access of abilities, of games allowing for a great availability of skills that are very different from one another. As I said in my orginal post, though part of my likes the idea of having only one character and playing different ways, it doesn't make sense. I'm a warrior and then I go to a place and suddenly I'm a mage, and then I go to that place again and suddenly I'm a healer.

Heck, even Lineage 2 had a similiar mechanic with subclasses.

I'd be more interested in having players add different skill but having to make a choice as to how advanced those skills could get in relation to others.

So in effect, a mage might have martial training but in the end he shines with magic whereas a warrior might have some magic at his disposal but in the end he is a warrior. But never allowing mastery in all disciplines. This at least, to my taste, seems a more organic way of adding different play styles without having one go to a location and completley change "into something else". Whch seems very clunky if one thinks of their character as "a character" Though I suppoes one can build in a lore reason as to why that is.

Of course I've seen people log into different characters but in my experience, the deeper you get into an enounter the more cumbersome it becomes to bring every alt a player has made in order to make it through to the end. Of course, people would sometimes have designated buffers they would place at an area and lot out and back into the game in order to access it.

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1001

2/17/13 2:27:25 PM#53

Rzyom has an interesting take on it: there are no classes, only skills. Skills cap out at 250.

The skill level acts as your "level" when using that skill. So, for example, if my skill is 150 at melee, and 50 at healing, I can play in a group fighting level 50's, as long as I only use my healing. Or, I could play in a group fighting 150's, and use my melee. I could use my healing skill at 50 fighting 150's, but if I used my 150 melee to fight 50's, I would ruin everyone's XP.

There is no need of alts, since if you want to learn a new skill, say crafting armor, or casting DPS magic, you can just start using that skill and levelling it. You still have the other skills available too, so if you gained 200 levels in melee, and now want to learn debuffing magic, you still have all the HP gains you got while learning melee, making it easier to survive.

 

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2437

World > Quest Progression

2/17/13 2:30:33 PM#54
I agree with you OP and will add level scaling to it. As long as the option to create an alt and stay at a fixed level is there I see no reason not two include class switching and level scaling other than someone's preference projected.

"well then why have levels?". It's simple, people like to see progress and if it's going to be a non skill based game then levels are the easiest way to accomplish this. Also, it provides a framework of where to go since level scaling in a level based game means there is a "gateway" to new content. Of course this is based on a themepark type game.

If WoW had level scaling and class switching I would enjoy it even more than I already do. For the interest of game continuity I do think there should be a process to it, not just walking up to a trainer and hitting a button.
  User Deleted
2/17/13 2:32:43 PM#55
Well in ways it would make sense in a sub-class system that your character has the option to expand, or focus their toolbox of abilties, by either keeping to one class or going into another for some other abilties. Like in D&D you could be a fighter an keep that job all your character's life, but someone else could sub-class into a mage for afew spells they liked and create a character that was different an in way weaker yet stronger than your pure fighter. Honestly it was also in D&D that certain races had classes they were more skilled at being, and so they were much more powerful than a even pure class version. This idea of having varied option in what class you are, what/if you sub-class, and what race you are would lead to both reasons to keep one character as well as reasons to re-roll too. One idea i do like about rift is hwo they feel that the deeper you specc into one soul/class the more effective that class/soul's abilties will be for you., it is like in the real world you can specealize an be ammazing at what you do, or deversify an be more able to deal with more situation.
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

2/17/13 2:37:03 PM#56
Classes are fine...The whole "One character can do all" is total fail....Its a big reason why the games in the genre have gone downhill.
  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 934

2/17/13 2:39:31 PM#57
Originally posted by goozmania

I disagree. Having everyone capable of being everything makes group and raid play difficult, particularly for those who are forced to play with greedy people. Where in a regular class based game, a single character is a member of a raiding guild and he obviously only seeks equipment for his class; but this was much different in FFXI, where everyone seemed to want everything... Sure, you could force a player to only roll/bid for gear for the job in which he applied to his linkshell with, but this often caused drama like "I just wanted to play job C, but roll on Job A" or "I was only playing Job B, because ____ said we needed one" etc... Nevermind the ease of which people could cheat on their linkshells by simply equipping others; FFXI facilitated selfishness and greed.

At least FFXI still had job distinction, though. Games where everyone has access to all skills at all times... I think those are simply solo games, and should stay that way.

I like FFXI's class system but your right it did cause a who got what problem in the dungeon's. That is why I think if you have this class system you should make it Token baced. This way there is nothing to lot on, you run the dungeon a few times trade your tokens and collect simple as that.

  Amsai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/16/11
Posts: 69

2/17/13 2:58:44 PM#58

@ Sovrath

 

I kinda agree with not having some kind of restriction on progression so that everyone isnt making master of everything  tank-mage-healer God classes. I get that. But FFXI and FFXIV definately dont do that.

 

I think its important to point out the difference here between games with specialized classes, games with alts, and classless systems

WoW = specialized classes and you have to roll an alt to play a different class, but all quest/raid progress must be redone.

FFXI/FFXIV = specialized classes on the same character where all quest/raid progress is tied to the same character. Its basically like having alts only you arent having an identity crisis with having multiple yous. When you switch classes you cant switch anytime you want (like going between tank and mage while fighting a boss, you go in with tank you STAY tank).  Switching classes in these games would be a complete switch of class and stats and you only had access to whatever you leveled a class too. And often times it would mean complete swtch in useable/neded gear. This is why I say its almost like having alts.

Asherons Call = Classless (same character and master of everything eventually)

 

I guess the most important differenece is that in a class switching game like ffxi, you cant be a master of everything and have access to all skills at the same time as you could with a classless system.

 

However, a completely classless system could work to with a few changes. Like bonus power for using skills of the same archetype. Or a build a deck of cards approach where you have limited ability slots and for each encounter you have to choose strategically what to take (even if you actually have mastered everything)

 

If set up right any system where you can experience all things on one character is better imo. You become more attached to that character because of the overwhelming amount you have invested in that one character. You are very versatile and able to help out in any situation without having to log out and bring in your alt. And it makes it less confusing when people dont have to attach a face to 5-6 different characters. The only legitimate reason why id even want to roll an alt if the system allowed class switching or a classless system, would be for RP purposes.

 

As to the problem of people wanting too much shit for their vast array of characters @ endgame. It is a problem, but I agree with the other poster that tokens would end that problem. If someone wants to level up 15 different classes on one charater, here are the tokens, distribute them as you see fit.

  User Deleted
2/17/13 3:51:46 PM#59

Depends on the game.

 

I LOVE games that allow you one character and the ability to do it all...not all at once but you get the point i think.

 

I detest rerolling alts.  For most games its a matter of trudging through the same boring content over again just for some endgame variety.

 

In very rare cases ive enjoyed a reroll or two...but the process adds to burnout on the game, and they are game i can never go back to due to this burnout.

 

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1822

2/17/13 4:57:55 PM#60
I love just redoing everything, I know I'm not the only one who likes making alts just for the sake of doing the storyline and game completely over, no matter how long it takes.
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