Originally posted by evilastro
Why would anyone invest in him? He was beating on this drum back with WAR, which they spent a crapton of money on and was an epic failure. Why would any investors trust him that he will do it right this time?

"You have no frame of reference here, Donny.  You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wu598ENenk

Originally posted by evilastro
Why would anyone invest in him? He was beating on this drum back with WAR, which they spent a crapton of money on and was an epic failure. Why would any investors trust him that he will do it right this time?

WAR sold over 1.2M boxes in its first quarter.  It sold more boxes that since then  and had high sub numbers for the first 3 months even though the numbers declined quickly once Blizzard launched its expansion. It also continued to have subscirption revenues, even today. It was anything but an epic failure especially since the cost to develop the game for EA was quite small compared to SWToR (2 years of development at EA versus 5-6). FYI, the press releases/earnings calls from EA will confirm the sales/sub numbers. I wish I could give out other numbers but EA didn't so I can't. Now, was WAR a huge success, of course not. But calling it an epic failure when most MMORPGs don't even launch and certainly, even when they do, don't sell as many box copies as WAR did really isn't fair especially when you consider the 3 year development cycle (total) and only 2 years at EA. Oh, and Mythic's team was smaller than Blizzard's when it created WoW and SWToR's team at peak so we were spending a lot less money and we had almost no VO and marketing support, so it's safe to say that WAR didn't cost anywhere near what those games cost.

In tems of investors, well, because I made both my investors happy with their returns and as per above, one of the two of them are investing with me again and the other doesn't do deals with companies until they have a significant revenue stream and BTW, we are still in touch. :)

At the end of the day, investors care about making a profit on their investment. My first investor (Abandon Entertainment) made a big profit (4x) when we did the deal with TA (32M). The 2nd investor also made a profit but I can't divulge the amount because EA hasn't done so yet but since I have said that TA put in 32M for about a third of the company, well, you can do some back of the envelope calculating. FYI, Abandon also got a big check when EA bought us. So, their 4X went up, a lot.

That's why someone would invest in me if I wanted to do something other than a niche game, which I don't and since I don't, well, even though they would like the fact that I made both my investors happy, most wouldn't want to back the game but the one that is, well, they like the long-term plan of building this MMORPG to last and are satisfied with a smaller but longer tail to the revenue.

Look, as I've said before, WAR was both not the game I wanted it to be and it certainly wasn't the success EA wanted it to be but saying it was an epic failure or implying that investors wouldn't touch me, is just plain wrong especially in light of what I did for my investors the last time, which is one of the things that really counts the most to investors, a track record. The other thing that counts is what kind of exit they can expect and since I won't create a game that could have say 500K subs or the equivalent revenue stream, well, there are other people out there who are chasing bigger dreams. I have a nice small dream, it's called CU (for now) and that's good enough for me. If it's good enough for our Kickstarter backers, well, we go into development. If we don't, then that's fine as the market has told me that there isn't enough interest in it and I'll go back another game as I should.

Night all. Heading home and to bed me thinks. It's been a long day at work. Cya.

Originally posted by evilastro
Why would anyone invest in him? He was beating on this drum back with WAR, which they spent a crapton of money on and was an epic failure. Why would any investors trust him that he will do it right this time?

If this is referring to the upcoming kickstarter campaign,  You are not investing in him, you are donating money to support his project, to help it come to life, not to financially profit or even get your money back.  Yes there will be some rewards in terms of the game when delivered but not financial ones.

I´m always wondering why people seriously believe, that everything has to be compared to World of Warcraft. I won´t say WoW is the devil and brought nothing but evil. I played it myself several years because of social attachements. Still, not only did WoW change the MMO-market completely, its also one of the biggest success ever up to now.

Does it always have to be that big? Although I´m quite fond of chasing epic dreams, I think its important sometimes to stay realistic and modest. Whats wrong with a nichegame, that costs 5.000.000$, where you get 2.000.000$ via a kickstart, the rest from boxsales and then have - let us say - 50.000 players subscribing to the game for several years, giving you like 750.000$ per month to pay your staff, server etc and some profit? You´ll get more than enough money yourself here, allowing you to develop another game, that might succed in a similar way.

I know these numbers are very simplistic and I´m not saying, thats how I would guess it´ll happen here - but those numbers aren´t totally off the mark.

Personally, if I would have to choose to design

1) a AAA-game with five years developement, more than 100.000.000 $ production costs, where I try to cater to everyone, hyping the game and using every angle to get more customers by changing features, making it more mainsteam and gambling whether or not I get the big success to justify all this effort and money

OR

2) a nichegame with two years developement, not more than 10.000.000 $ production costs, where I stick to my targetgroup, get them into the boat as soon as possible, keep my initial game principles, deliver a bugfree working and fun game some 50.000-100.000 gladly subscribe for several years and then maybe doing that once or twice more with other ideas, thereby supporting 2-3 super working nichegames, all of them satisfying the players while being profitable...

Well, thats a no-brainer for me. I´ll choose option 2 over anything anytime, no matter what I´m offered. Thats why I support Mark and his team all the way. Its just the right thing to do and in my opinion how it should be everywhere.

The MMO-community is so diverse, it would be more satisfying for everyone, if more companies would focus on a real targetgroup, making a good longliving and profitable game here instead of a game "for everyone" that has no chance of really becoming what everyone is looking for.

Originally posted by Storm_Fireblade

I´m always wondering why people seriously believe, that everything has to be compared to World of Warcraft. I won´t say WoW is the devil and brought nothing but evil. I played it myself several years because of social attachements. Still, not only did WoW change the MMO-market completely, its also one of the biggest success ever up to now.

Does it always have to be that big? Although I´m quite fond of chasing epic dreams, I think its important sometimes to stay realistic and modest. Whats wrong with a nichegame, that costs 5.000.000$, where you get 2.000.000$ via a kickstart, the rest from boxsales and then have - let us say - 50.000 players subscribing to the game for several years, giving you like 750.000$ per month to pay your staff, server etc and some profit? You´ll get more than enough money yourself here, allowing you to develop another game, that might succed in a similar way.

I know these numbers are very simplistic and I´m not saying, thats how I would guess it´ll happen here - but those numbers aren´t totally off the mark.

Personally, if I would have to choose to design

1) a AAA-game with five years developement, more than 100.000.000 $ production costs, where I try to cater to everyone, hyping the game and using every angle to get more customers by changing features, making it more mainsteam and gambling whether or not I get the big success to justify all this effort and money

OR

2) a nichegame with two years developement, not more than 10.000.000 $ production costs, where I stick to my targetgroup, get them into the boat as soon as possible, keep my initial game principles, deliver a bugfree working and fun game some 50.000-100.000 gladly subscribe for several years and then maybe doing that once or twice more with other ideas, thereby supporting 2-3 super working nichegames, all of them satisfying the players while being profitable...

Well, thats a no-brainer for me. I´ll choose option 2 over anything anytime, no matter what I´m offered. Thats why I support Mark and his team all the way. Its just the right thing to do and in my opinion how it should be everywhere.

The MMO-community is so diverse, it would be more satisfying for everyone, if more companies would focus on a real targetgroup, making a good longliving and profitable game here instead of a game "for everyone" that has no chance of really becoming what everyone is looking for.

I vote niche game.  For me this is not my niche and therefore not my game.  But I like the principal.

Originally posted by Storm_Fireblade

2) a nichegame with two years developement, not more than 10.000.000 $ production costs, where I stick to my targetgroup, get them into the boat as soon as possible, keep my initial game principles, deliver a bugfree working and fun game some 50.000-100.000 gladly subscribe for several years and then maybe doing that once or twice more with other ideas, thereby supporting 2-3 super working nichegames, all of them satisfying the players while being profitable...

 

2 years/10 million is too low to reasonably expect a niche game to be pulled off well. Thats a big part of the issue with kickstarter for MMOs.  You are looking for both niche AND watered down.  Small world, lesser graphcs, limited races, not many armor styles...that sort of thing will cut down time and money.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

2) "AAA" MMORPGs budgets now top 100M on the low end simply because of the team size and the development timelines.

3) "AAA" MMORPGs need teams of 300+ to complete, thus the big budgets.

 

While I think it cost more than the 50 million that gets thrown around, Trion made a AAA MMORPG for less than 100 Million and a staff around 120 people.

People look at the extreme (SWTOR) too much.

I think its mostly mismanagement on the part of games like SWTOR.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

:: Words ::

Night all. Heading home and to bed me thinks. It's been a long day at work. Cya.

MJ / CSE

Thank you for posting in these forums, your effort and humbleness is greatly appreciated.

Also, thank you for DAoC. It nearly ruined my life, in the best way possible. I'm blessed to have lived at the era when such epic emotions and experience could become reality without it actually being reality and thus mostly fatal. 

Kickstarter is awesome new way to gauge market interest for projects, especially in the niche / online service / entertainment market. Judging from the initial response it would seem from the hype levels that you will do absolutely fine reaching the goal. I would personally like to - and I'm aware of at least handfull of others - actually invest to your company directly as part of our meager small investor budgets. Is there any plans for an IPO yet? Could CSE consider alternative methods of receiving investment money, with a chance of realization of profits?

We who know your work from earlier days used to be just gamers, now 13 years later we are adults, with adult understanding of economics, and adult wallets. If you know what I mean. 

I wish all the best for you in this campaign. Undoubtedly it will be beyond amazing.

I think what is really interesting here is that people complain about having to pay $50, $60 and up to $100 for a game, but are willing to dump as much as $1000's into a project to create a game that -

a, may never see the light of day. (yes I know you may get your money back)

b, have no idea what the end result of the game will be.

c, may play it for a month before moving onto another game they consider better.

3 things of the top of my head others may be able to add to it.  Not knocking the idea of kickstarter, I think its a good thing.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?

It doesn't compute.  If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.

But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back.  The whole thing seems off to me.

 

Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed.  If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.

 

Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing.  For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.

Not read the entire thread as I dont have the time but just wanted to respond to this.

He would have an issue securing funding as most investors are looking for massive returns.. they want wow numbers not numbers that a niche game like this would get..

Plus I believe this is the first game this company has made, sure the people working for the company have done a lot of games but the company itself is new I believe.

So gonig with kickstarter for some initial funds totally makes sense, once they can show potential investors that there are people out there who actually want this type of game and not a wow clone then they will be more willing to invest some cash.

Plus of course you dont have to support the kickstarter campaign at all, you can jsut sit back and wait for the game to be finished and then buy it.. they are not holding a gun to your head and forcing anyone to support them. Its totally your choice.

I know ill back the game thats for sure as I really like what the guy is saying, i wont put silly amounts of cash into it jsut enough to get a digital copy of the game or whatever, but im sure others will be willing to pledge a lot more.

In it's simplest form... Kickstarter allows a developer more freedom and community interaction to future proof a game and keep it's initial focus and intended goals intact.

Having worked before in the console industry I can tell you for a fact that when you have a major parent/publishing company backing your project that it has great potential to go out of your hands quickly. One game I assisted on was truly a beauty of a game on our concept table. However, once our funding was passed for continued development we were presented with marketing numbers and "suggestions" which completely altered and butchered the game. The game was even held up in litigation over basically "licensing defamation" because of the "suggestions" we had to use. We were not happy with the game and expressed our desires to rework it many times, but we were overruled and the game was shoved out to the presses to become an abyssmal failure.

Originally posted by Cod_Eye

I think what is really interesting here is that people complain about having to pay $50, $60 and up to $100 for a game, but are willing to dump as much as $1000's into a project to create a game that -

a, may never see the light of day. (yes I know you may get your money back)

b, have no idea what the end result of the game will be.

c, may play it for a month before moving onto another game they consider better.

 

3 things of the top of my head others may be able to add to it.  Not knocking the idea of kickstarter, I think its a good thing.

Choice matters - it really is that simple. No one is forced to back this game, but you can choose to. What many critics - not saying you are - don´t understand or at least seem to forget, is that supporting this game during the kickstarter campaign will give me something in return. I´m not talking money here, but

1) A higher chance, that the game actually is going to be made

2) The possiblity to become a part of the developement from scratch.

Those are viable reasons you shouldn´t leave out of the equation. Of course I could take my money and just buy a game, that actually has been made. Or I could support a game, that has a bigger budget or more to show already. But as I said in the beginning: Choice matters!

I´m not interested in those other games out there. None of them really seem to offer enough to satisfy me, so I choose to support a vision, that up to now comes very close to what I´m looking for right now. If I decide not to back this game I would reduce the chances to even see, whether or not it could become "my game".

And personally - especially since I´m going to work in the gaming industry myself - its somewhat of a perk to get in touch with Mark and his team really early and be a part of the whole developement process.

I know, some critics here are assuming CSE won´t listen to us anyway - but thats something I choose not to believe. Right now I trust Mark and I believe in his vision. Thats enough for me to back the game, even though or maybe especially because its a chance I take.

Say what you will about Warhammer Online, It's still my second most played MMO after DAOC.

I had fun with it, It wasn't DAOC2....However I got my money's worth out of that game.

Why wouldn't a dev use kickstarter in this day and age?

The design principles are being completely outlined for the public, who then gets to decide if it is worth pursuing.

Its a lot better than getting another flawed MMO with featues that nobody wants and only has a month's worth of content get shoved down out throates via hype and marketing.

Originally posted by Xsorus

Say what you will about Warhammer Online, It's still my second most played MMO after DAOC.

I had fun with it, It wasn't DAOC2....However I got my money's worth out of that game.

So did I but I don't consider that a very high bar to clear for a game. Being worth box price and a few months subscription is the bare minimum that should be expected of an MMO. WAR was that and nothing more for me. I expect they are aiming to achieve a better result than that for CU.

Originally posted by Nihilist

Why wouldn't a dev use kickstarter in this day and age?

The design principles are being completely outlined for the public, who then gets to decide if it is worth pursuing.

Its a lot better than getting another flawed MMO with featues that nobody wants and only has a month's worth of content get shoved down out throates via hype and marketing.

 

I think it's interesting how some players have complained about "the suits" making the money decisions or "greedy investors" but all of a sudden the money decisions (some money decisions) are put into the hands of interested people and suddenly it's not worth it.

Well, folks, this is why people who invest "real" money and "lots of real money" tend to want to see results and results that will get them a return.

Because it's their money!

Kickstarter does allow people to invest something into these ventures and yes there are risks.

To me, Kickstarter funding is a bit shady.   You put money into it and hope that you get some additional access to the game and beta......that's it.  You have no basic rights like a shareholder.  You don't get a return on your investment should the game be a success.   

So, you pay for beta, which may or may not happen.  

Hmmm, i'd rather just be an investor in the company than somebody who funds a kickstarter campaign.  But, to each their own.

 I agree that it is an obvious money grab.

Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.

You want us to make a game we would make anyway?  Give us some free money then....

It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.

If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard.  ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

to people saying "oh but its in the ToS, they are responsible if they don't deliver"

 

Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?

No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds, as transactions are between backers and the creator. In fact, Kickstarter never has the funds at all. When a project is successfully funded, money is transferred directly from backers' credit cards to the project creator's Amazon Payments account. It's up to the creator to issue a refund, which they can do through their Amazon Payments account. (Like PayPal, Amazon Payments allows refunds for 60 days from the date of charge. After 60 days, creators cannot reverse the same charge to backers' credit cards, so to issue refunds they'll need to initiate a new transaction to send money via Amazon Payments or PayPal, send backers a check, or use another method. Our support team has guided creators in how to issue refunds like these before.)

 

In other words, good luck getting your money back.  Want to take the project creator to court?  Fine, hire a lawyer to get back your 50 bucks.

Because class action law suits don' exist right?  Oh, wait...

Originally posted by stux

 I agree that it is an obvious money grab.

 

Pretty crappy that developers need to sink that low.

 

You want us to make a game we would make anyway?  Give us some free money then....

 

It isn't like they wouldn't be making the game regardless.

 

If you donate to it you are helping make this an industry standard.  ALL inventors of any company making a game like it will require the free money before approving future games.

Actually they woun't make the game is the kickstarter failes...