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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Feedback needed: Clear as Mudd

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49 posts found
  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

 
OP  2/16/13 4:53:09 PM#21
Originally posted by Lore84
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by alexisevic

Mark,

One of the aspects of DAoC that I really enjoyed about the realm rank system was it really allowed you to keep on 'leveling' your character almost indefinatly, albiet it got expnentially more difficult with each progression. Do you envision a simmilar system for CU? Or will at some point will character advancement cap out? 

Originally posted by Lore84

Originally posted by alexisevic

Mark,

One of the aspects of DAoC that I really enjoyed about the realm rank system was it really allowed you to keep on 'leveling' your character almost indefinatly, albiet it got expnentially more difficult with each progression. Do you envision a simmilar system for CU? Or will at some point will character advancement cap out? 

Agreed...it took such a long time to get to RR13...years and years. I think it would be difficult to keep players suitably "motivated" without making sure you didn't cap out quickly. One of the major failings of recent MMO's i think is making it just too easy and too quick to blast through most of the content in the space of a week and max out your character.

DAOC had such longevity.

LOL, before I answer that, how about you guys giving me some feedback, hmmm? :)

To be fair Mark I think you have been pretty clear with this issue, it must be quite difficult to try and explain your intentions on a specific part of the game mechanics without giving -too- much away at an early stage and then being constrained during development because you don't want to dissapoint players that you have made claims to in the past.

One point I just wanted to make though with regards to "You won’t get rewards from the crafting track that will be useful in RvR just as you won’t get RvR rewards that would benefit your crafting skills." When I first read this I thought for a second that you meant that crafting won't benefit you in RVR...im guessing thats not the case! Maybe you mean that additional abilities gained from the crafting track won't benefit you, but the items you make will? :D

Argh. Good point. Fixing now. Yes, you are right, I'm not trying to hype stuff while at the same time talk about it mixed in with a general hesitancy to talk about some things for competitve reasons too (there are only a couple of things that fall into this category though so far).

Thanks and so my answer to your question is, that right now we are looking at an uncapped system as the best way to go for the game. Gaining abilities will not be something that will happen at most of  today's MMORPGs pace but we also don't want players thinking that they have to play the game 24x7 for a week to see any progress. There is a balance to be struck but we are definitely not leaning towards easy mode.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Raagnarz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 261

2/16/13 4:55:42 PM#22
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Raagnarz

Its pretty damn clear to me. SInce you've elaborated on character progression in the 3 "spheres" being self contained that helps. Knowing a guy who will spend all his time crafting will be a mastercrafter but that is not the same experience that helps him own at rvr is good to know. It both allows freedom to concentrate and be rewarded for what you want or like to do. While at the same time doesn't make a hermit who crafts helms of uberness in the safe zone go out and be a god on the battlefield even though he has never lifted a sword.

 

I love the fact that we'll be able to see names/titles of enemies again. So many games put up this invisible wall of retardation so no ones feelings can be hurt...it sickens me lol. Especially since some of the best friends I have made in gaming were one time rivals/enemies.

 

The only thing I am curious about is how do you see skill gathering happening within the game. Will skills/spells be awarded when you lvel, or gain XXX skill in using an item/spell, or do you envision some sort of talent tree or whatever?

Glad you like the name thing. Yeah, I'm not worried if somebody's feelings are hurt because they see their name in kill spam or if their defeat is posted somewhere. We're looking for players who want to play a game where they know they will win/lose on a nightly basis and are just fine with that, as long as it is fun and there still is the language barrier wall between the realms (sorry, still a believer in that one).

It's a bit more complicated than that and as far as I know, it's pretty different from other games so before I make any promises or talk about it, just know that we really want to find a way not to do the typical xp/leveling system. I'm not trying to be evasive here but since I'm really trying to avoid hype (or things coming back to bite me in the butt if I have to change them), that we are looking at a combination of usage-based leveling and more of a free roaming skills/abilties system based on RvR actions/success. Is that okay for now?

That absolutely suffices for now. You're still sorting it out and thats fine. I wouldn't expect every system and detail to be hammered down right now. I kind of imagine your office whiteboard is probably something akin to a Wile E Coyote Acme bluepirnt right now except the dots connecting the steps have like 1000 branches at the moment lol.

  Raagnarz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 261

2/16/13 4:56:34 PM#23
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Tayah

Whatever the system for Tri Realm, I hope it's not easily attained and capped in a week or month or even a year. People get to cap in anything and the game dies off.   :(  I like when things are tough and I'm not just given things just for showing up.

It will be interesting to see what you all come up with.

Not a chance that it will be "Buy game, create char, kill one Viking, Ding Gratz!" not a chance at all. 

Why's it always gotta be about killing vikings? Show the man where the bad Olaf touched you.

  Scilly

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 69

2/16/13 4:58:10 PM#24
Originally posted by Raagnarz
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Tayah

Whatever the system for Tri Realm, I hope it's not easily attained and capped in a week or month or even a year. People get to cap in anything and the game dies off.   :(  I like when things are tough and I'm not just given things just for showing up.

It will be interesting to see what you all come up with.

Not a chance that it will be "Buy game, create char, kill one Viking, Ding Gratz!" not a chance at all. 

Why's it always gotta be about killing vikings? Show the man where the bad Olaf touched you.

LOL

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

 
OP  2/16/13 5:00:02 PM#25
Originally posted by Lore84
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by alexisevic

Mark,

One of the aspects of DAoC that I really enjoyed about the realm rank system was it really allowed you to keep on 'leveling' your character almost indefinatly, albiet it got expnentially more difficult with each progression. Do you envision a simmilar system for CU? Or will at some point will character advancement cap out? 

Originally posted by Lore84

Originally posted by alexisevic

Mark,

One of the aspects of DAoC that I really enjoyed about the realm rank system was it really allowed you to keep on 'leveling' your character almost indefinatly, albiet it got expnentially more difficult with each progression. Do you envision a simmilar system for CU? Or will at some point will character advancement cap out? 

Agreed...it took such a long time to get to RR13...years and years. I think it would be difficult to keep players suitably "motivated" without making sure you didn't cap out quickly. One of the major failings of recent MMO's i think is making it just too easy and too quick to blast through most of the content in the space of a week and max out your character.

DAOC had such longevity.

LOL, before I answer that, how about you guys giving me some feedback, hmmm? :)

To be fair Mark I think you have been pretty clear with this issue, it must be quite difficult to try and explain your intentions on a specific part of the game mechanics without giving -too- much away at an early stage and then being constrained during development because you don't want to dissapoint players that you have made claims to in the past.

One point I just wanted to make though with regards to "You won’t get rewards from the crafting track that will be useful in RvR just as you won’t get RvR rewards that would benefit your crafting skills." When I first read this I thought for a second that you meant that crafting won't benefit you in RVR...im guessing thats not the case! Maybe you mean that additional abilities gained from the crafting track won't benefit you, but the items you make will? :D

Fixed and thanks. TIme for an early dinner, will be back soon.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Lore84

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 69

2/16/13 5:02:16 PM#26
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Thanks and so my answer to your question is, that right now we are looking at an uncapped system as the best way to go for the game. Gaining abilities will not be something that will happen at most of  today's MMORPGs pace but we also don't want players thinking that they have to play the game 24x7 for a week to see any progress. There is a balance to be struck but we are definitely not leaning towards easy mode.

Uncapped system? :D That's music to my ears

Ex-DAOC, Excalibur

  Storm_Fireblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 156

2/16/13 5:12:17 PM#27
Its hard now not to understand what you are trying to say, without demanding that you go into specifics. So as far as I can tell - you should be fine.

Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  Darrgen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/10
Posts: 65

2/16/13 5:15:05 PM#28

To be honest daoc had an excellent way of scaling abilities. By RR5 you had all your essential active abilities in either a less powerful form or longer cooldown. You would only have very few of the passive abilities yet you were able to compete at around this rank with even seasoned enemies. RR5 could be achieved in around 2 weeks but generally took around a month or a little longer.  Purge would go from 15 mins with a 5 second activation delay to 5 minute reuse with no activation delay at the highest rank. This is a solid system. 

 

To me where DaoC was brilliant especially with the old RAs with 30 minute resuse timers is that groups that may have been very high rank for their time had to be wise with the use of these long cooldown Ra's. If not then another group that may have all their abilities up could  beat them even with being lower rank and  if normally with all abilities that group very rarely won. Yes the more skilled group should win but a skilled group isn't only decided by how well they do with all their abilities but also how well they can handle a situation that they are at a disadvantage.

 

One more thing I'd like to touch on even though it doesn't pertain too much to RA abilities. Warhammer had morale abilities and it's my hope that a system similar to this makes it into CU. Id love to see the acquistion of Morale abilities tied to this system as well. Stealth is a big discussion right now and i think tying stealth to morales would be interesting. If they battle long enough to earn morale 4, it may increase the effectiveness of their stealth for 5-10 minutes or so if they choose, otherwise their stealth would be very weak and be seen from a pretty far distance.

  alexisevic

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 41

2/16/13 5:18:41 PM#29
Originally posted by Lore84
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Thanks and so my answer to your question is, that right now we are looking at an uncapped system as the best way to go for the game. Gaining abilities will not be something that will happen at most of  today's MMORPGs pace but we also don't want players thinking that they have to play the game 24x7 for a week to see any progress. There is a balance to be struck but we are definitely not leaning towards easy mode.

Uncapped system? :D That's music to my ears

 

So happy right now.

  Lore84

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 69

2/16/13 5:23:48 PM#30
Originally posted by Darrgen

To me where DaoC was brilliant especially with the old RAs with 30 minute resuse timers is that groups that may have been very high rank for their time had to be wise with the use of these long cooldown Ra's. If not then another group that may have all their abilities up could  beat them even with being lower rank and  if normally with all abilities that group very rarely won. Yes the more skilled group should win but a skilled group isn't only decided by how well they do with all their abilities but also how well they can handle a situation that they are at a disadvantage.

 

I agree I did like that system. What I liked even more though was the sense of accomplishment when you hit a high RR and earned your new title. I remember when I saw my first Einherjar and Emerald Ridere :D Was pretty awesome seeing their group and then getting stomped by them :P

Ex-DAOC, Excalibur

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

2/16/13 5:29:02 PM#31

Looks good!

 

Would like to see rites of passage for each sphere but details details. Its good, conveys the message clearly.

  Nibs

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/26/04
Posts: 200

2/16/13 5:33:17 PM#32

So far, so good.

Whilst the explanation wasn't needed for me personally, it does make things a lot clearer and less ambiguous :)

  Storm_Fireblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 156

2/16/13 6:05:19 PM#33

What I forgot, Mark - regarding longtime motivation without making it impossible for newcomers to have a fighting chance I wanted to make a suggestion:

Reducing the cooldown of abilities. Its such a simple mechanic, while at the same time giving players a reason to keep on going. As an example:

You hand out three abilities to every player very soon. Those abilities do have a cooldown until you can use those again. So - if you now have a newcomer and a veteran fighting, both have the possibility to use those skills. But, while the newcomer might have to wait 30 seconds for the cooldown, the veteran has gained several improvements making it only 20 seconds.

Thats increasing the odds for the veteran, while still giving the newer player a chance.

Of course that shouldn´t be the only way to improve your character, but it does give you the chance to offer us something to continue playing without destroying the balance and still reward the veterans.

Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  Satarious

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/08
Posts: 1056

2/16/13 6:10:16 PM#34

What about taking or defending keeps?  Will there be experience (toward your next level) rewarded for that?

I think it would be kind of cool if  the amount of experience awarded (divided among the individuals of the conquering army) scales up depending on the level of fortitude of the keep and the number of defenders,  etc.   By the same token, the defenders should be awarded experience based on the number of attackers and duration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

2/16/13 6:22:19 PM#35

I think even the first version was clear to me but then I played DAOC for many, many years. One thing that isn't clear is how many abilities you'll have when you roll a brand new toon. Will you start with what in DAOC would have been all the abilities you would have had from being level 50 and allocating all your skill points in various spec lines? Or will you have to earn even those from RvRing?

Count me down as another person who really, really wants whatever progression system you come up with to take a long time or possibly forever to reach the cap and have lots of powerful active abilities that will be balanced by medium to long reuse timers and the opportunity cost of acquiring this ability instead of that one (translation: I want the functional equivalent of realm ranks and RAs regardless of what you end up calling them to better fit the new game and avoid legal issues).

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  alexisevic

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 41

2/16/13 6:30:48 PM#36
Originally posted by Satarious

What about taking or defending keeps?  Will there be experience (toward your next level) rewarded for that?

I think it would be kind of cool if  the amount of experience awarded (divided among the individuals of the conquering army) scales up depending on the level of fortitude of the keep and the number of defenders,  etc.   By the same token, the defenders should be awarded experience based on the number of attackers and duration.

 

MJ has said that most of the benefits will come from holding keeps, and the longer you hold them the more the benefits will increase.  He doesn't want to create a situation where players earn more benefit from just swapping keeps (like in WAR) then actually holding onto them. 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2118

joie de vivre

2/16/13 6:36:42 PM#37

Makes sense to me.

I love the titles, it's a nice simple way to say something about your character. I'm glad we will be able to see names cross relm. Talking cross relm on a PVP game has it's moments, but I have to agree that most of the time it ends up being abused.

I love the 3 leveling systems and how they do not over lap.

A potential issue I see is since it is a PVP game it will be difficult to recruit new players as the game ages and power/lvl gap widens. With that said I really like slow leveling so when you hear about the guy on the server who hit max crafting level, you respect and seek him out. I miss that from the old days.

I sort of picture a system that is similar to what some of the FPS games are doing. You start out capable, but the more time you invest the better perks and equipment you are able to use. They don't make you invincible, and a new player can still kill you, but you do have slight advantages.

That sort of system is fun for the simple reason that I can convince my friend to try CU, he can log on, make a toon, jump in and contribute to the game right off the start rather than having to wait a month to be able to play with his friends and be of any use.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17626

2/16/13 6:45:33 PM#38
Originally posted by alexisevic
 

 

MJ has said that most of the benefits will come from holding keeps, and the longer you hold them the more the benefits will increase.  He doesn't want to create a situation where players earn more benefit from just swapping keeps (like in WAR) then actually holding onto them. 

I say +1 to that.

  Seitr

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 50

2/16/13 6:51:51 PM#39
Originally posted by Raagnarz
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Tayah

Whatever the system for Tri Realm, I hope it's not easily attained and capped in a week or month or even a year. People get to cap in anything and the game dies off.   :(  I like when things are tough and I'm not just given things just for showing up.

It will be interesting to see what you all come up with.

Not a chance that it will be "Buy game, create char, kill one Viking, Ding Gratz!" not a chance at all. 

Why's it always gotta be about killing vikings? Show the man where the bad Olaf touched you.

Lmao!!!

  Daimonion69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 29

2/16/13 6:56:56 PM#40

To me it was pretty clear. No PvE means no seperate "PvE leveling".

 

The 2 skill systems in DAoC hat some significant differences, that should be viewed at.

The first point was already menitoned "uncapped progression". For me its an important point for motivation, to always have the chance to improve. In common PvE skill trees, you finish you skilling at max level... and thats end of progression (at least in that tree). You already agreed on uncapped progression, so thats just fine. ;)

The next thing is, that the old RA system was not a real tree, but a pool of abilities, that you could at random order. If i understood your former posts right, then you belive in a rather fixed, class based skill tree and you have to skill along a "path", that you choose. Imho it might be good, to have the possibility to get some abilities off from your path. The possibility to pick free from several skills gives more depth to character planing imho and has impact on your tactics on the battlefiield.

And finally i belive that some skills should be aviable for all classes, also apart from your class path. I am talking about skills like purge or first aid ...

 

 

btw, i have no idea, how a "housing leveling track" could look like!? ;)

 

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