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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Tingle's Touchy Subjects: MMORPGs

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  User Deleted
2/15/13 11:09:34 PM#21

Didn't get a chance to read the whole article but: "Because in all honesty, most MMOs nowadays are no more involved than an ordinary offline RPGs" is a hint that I'm very much going to enjoy your columns.

 

Looking forward to more in the future.

 

  Senadina

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/06
Posts: 882

2/16/13 4:53:39 AM#22
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by BitterClinger

Ok, while I agree with the general sentiment; I have to say we REALLY need to stop with the rose-colored remembrances of some of the old games.

Ultima Online was fantastic.  I really liked many things about it.  The reason I quit playing was:

  • Blue healers
  • Gameplay-killing interface problems (e.g. two guys attack your friend and spam a wall of text while doing so - you can't target your friend through the text)
  • Play-crushing lag around houses, which were everywhere
  • Stupid bugs (e.g. enter another player's house as ghost, get friend or wandering healer to rez you through wall, open door from inside house, steal everything from house)
  • Macroing
  • Entirely hackable client-server communications
So, no.  I don't want to return to those days.

I don't think people are calling for old bugs to be re-introduced just some of the old concepts.

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

2/16/13 7:37:06 AM#23

What a horrible rose coloured cliche of an article..... wait a minute!!

 

But seriously do we need an article outlinning what every bitter vet or old git bangs on about every day on these and every forum on t'internet, isn't it just a form of incestious naval gazing? we know the world was fantastic back in [insert date] and we were all better off we get it, now what ya gonna do about it? instead off banging on about it put all that whinging energy into something creative, wouldn't that be a much better idea?

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

2/16/13 7:44:57 AM#24
Originally posted by Senadina

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

2/16/13 7:53:11 AM#25
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Senadina

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

People did go on about how Civ IV didn't live up to Civ III. There was a major outpouring of disgruntled Civ III fans after it's release. A vocal minority, sure. But not unlike the vocal minority found here.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

2/16/13 7:59:40 AM#26
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Senadina

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

 

Are you happy in lala land?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B003ELORWE/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

 

There's was a thread on here with a map of Doom and one of MW2 and the difference in complexity which result in old git gamers banging on about how Doom and old FPS' were so much better. You get this in the RTS world Total Annihilation anyone? mention Gothic 1, Balders Gate, Fall Out 1, Half Life and what about D3 to D2 etc etc.. and you get gamers going all misty eyed.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0030DH9R6/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  BitterClinger

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 205

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, Wildstar Online

2/16/13 9:59:54 AM#27
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Senadina

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

It's not just the bugs. "Blue Healers" were not a bug; they were the result of unintended consequences. The Wall of Text problem was not a bug; it was an oversight by the developers.

One of the things that made UO so immersive was the itemization. There was furniture, dishes, decorations, houses, and all manner of items in the world.  It's not developers that prevent that same level of itemization in today's MMO worlds.  The conversion to 3D graphics killed all of that.

So, it's not just bugs and it's not just UO.  I can start going into EQ as well; hell-levels, naked mages, spawn camping, trains, etc...

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

2/16/13 10:41:36 AM#28
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Senadina

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

 

Are you happy in lala land?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B003ELORWE/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

 

There's was a thread on here with a map of Doom and one of MW2 and the difference in complexity which result in old git gamers banging on about how Doom and old FPS' were so much better. You get this in the RTS world Total Annihilation anyone? mention Gothic 1, Balders Gate, Fall Out 1, Half Life and what about D3 to D2 etc etc.. and you get gamers going all misty eyed.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0030DH9R6/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

I said CIV IV specifically, CIV V hasn't got such good reviews after the brilliance of IV, but people would still rate it over I.

  FARGIN_WAR

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/12
Posts: 169

2/16/13 11:19:09 AM#29

Personally thought it was a great article. Just like you Adam I've found the last few big name MMOs to be rather bland, and would like to see at least some companies start adding in some of the features of older games where you could be a more interactive part of the world. And for all of you in here clammoring that means we just want to see UO2, it isn't. We'd just like to see games be less linear and impersonal, and made without the same narrowminded set of rules used by every damn MMO of the past seven years. So kindly stop being so pedantic. Luckily games like Arche Age seem to be attempting work outside the standard formula so maybe things are starting to change.

 

As to toning down your use of "toilet humor". Eh... I thought the jokes were amusing and was not offended in the slightest. Changing your writting style to appeal to a wider base of readers isn't a bad thing, but I also caution against letting a prudish minority decide for you what to write and how to write it. As at the end of the day the most important person who should feel good about your writting is you. Because if you feel you are being limited in your style of writing, your messege won't have the same passion or attention to detail, as when you are saying exactly what it is you want to say.

If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  zonzai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/05
Posts: 361

2/16/13 11:38:01 AM#30

The jokes were a bit contrived.  Don't try so hard to be sardonic.  I have a feeling it comes naturally to you anyway.  Overall, I agree with the sentiment of the article.  Exploration and imagination are in short supply in modern MMOs.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

2/16/13 11:51:29 AM#31
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Senadina

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

And yet in other genres, people don't hark back to better times, no one goes on about how CIV IV doesn't have the depth of CIV I, no one wants to go back to Wolfenstein when they can play a modern shooter. People hark back to older MMOs because they have mechanisms that added depth and immersion whilst that is something that has been lost from modern MMOs.

Yes the bugs are overlooked in the memory, but no one is asking for the bugs to come back, they want old mechanisms with modern polish.

 

Are you happy in lala land?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B003ELORWE/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

 

There's was a thread on here with a map of Doom and one of MW2 and the difference in complexity which result in old git gamers banging on about how Doom and old FPS' were so much better. You get this in the RTS world Total Annihilation anyone? mention Gothic 1, Balders Gate, Fall Out 1, Half Life and what about D3 to D2 etc etc.. and you get gamers going all misty eyed.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0030DH9R6/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

I said CIV IV specifically, CIV V hasn't got such good reviews after the brilliance of IV, but people would still rate it over I.

 

Your point was people in other gaming genre's don't hark back and that is just not true, its as rampant as it is in MMOland, there is always good and bad and many players prefer Civ V over IV over Civ III as with D3 over D2 but there is also a lot of players that don't and want companies to just stay in the past. I'm into other hobbies and its the same story, the past was fantastic and the present is rubbish which is blatantly not true and this article is put up to woo the vets on here and start a debate thats been raging on the forums for years and not only this one, so really whats the point? Until we get over the idea that every game should be designed for me and just open up to change the better and I'll throw in one more cliche "Rome wasn't built in a day" so instead of bleating on forums for things to change to the way you would like get active within communities and make that change happen, critique is good but not at the expense of living and enjoying things in the now.

 

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  LJonte

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 30

2/16/13 12:14:24 PM#32
Originally posted by Senadina
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by BitterClinger

Ok, while I agree with the general sentiment; I have to say we REALLY need to stop with the rose-colored remembrances of some of the old games.

Ultima Online was fantastic.  I really liked many things about it.  The reason I quit playing was:

  • Blue healers
  • Gameplay-killing interface problems (e.g. two guys attack your friend and spam a wall of text while doing so - you can't target your friend through the text)
  • Play-crushing lag around houses, which were everywhere
  • Stupid bugs (e.g. enter another player's house as ghost, get friend or wandering healer to rez you through wall, open door from inside house, steal everything from house)
  • Macroing
  • Entirely hackable client-server communications
So, no.  I don't want to return to those days.

I don't think people are calling for old bugs to be re-introduced just some of the old concepts.

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

 

 

For me, the lackluster nature of many MMOs now is the unfortunate result of the medium's own popularity. A thing gets popular, more producers want in on the new money-maker and suddenly everybody and their dog is trying to make an MMO, but without the willingness to take the risks that made some of those early games great.

But I so have to agree with the idea that one's first love is the best love. We're all a little jaded about anything that comes after because it can never quite measure up to our image of that initial infatuation.

So which is it? Are new games too bland or are we too jaded? A little of both, I think.

In any case, Adam, congratulations on your new column.

-Lisa Jonté
_________________________
Writer, Gamer, Malcontent
Fair Game at MMORPG.com

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

2/16/13 12:22:09 PM#33
Originally posted by Calerxes
 

Your point was people in other gaming genre's don't hark back and that is just not true, its as rampant as it is in MMOland, there is always good and bad and many players prefer Civ V over IV over Civ III as with D3 over D2 but there is also a lot of players that don't and want companies to just stay in the past. I'm into other hobbies and its the same story, the past was fantastic and the present is rubbish which is blatantly not true and this article is put up to woo the vets on here and start a debate thats been raging on the forums for years and not only this one, so really whats the point? Until we get over the idea that every game should be designed for me and just open up to change the better and I'll throw in one more cliche "Rome wasn't built in a day" so instead of bleating on forums for things to change to the way you would like get active within communities and make that change happen, critique is good but not at the expense of living and enjoying things in the now.

 

I disagree, I think it is far more rampant in the MMORPG genre than in other genres. 

Bleating here on this forum is just as valid as bleating over in other communities. I try to influence the changes I want to see by targeting my consumer spend depending on the developers ideas, that is the only way to make change.

  FARGIN_WAR

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/12
Posts: 169

2/16/13 12:53:26 PM#34
Originally posted by LJonte
Originally posted by Senadina
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by BitterClinger

Ok, while I agree with the general sentiment; I have to say we REALLY need to stop with the rose-colored remembrances of some of the old games.

Ultima Online was fantastic.  I really liked many things about it.  The reason I quit playing was:

  • Blue healers
  • Gameplay-killing interface problems (e.g. two guys attack your friend and spam a wall of text while doing so - you can't target your friend through the text)
  • Play-crushing lag around houses, which were everywhere
  • Stupid bugs (e.g. enter another player's house as ghost, get friend or wandering healer to rez you through wall, open door from inside house, steal everything from house)
  • Macroing
  • Entirely hackable client-server communications
So, no.  I don't want to return to those days.

I don't think people are calling for old bugs to be re-introduced just some of the old concepts.

 But that is part and parcel of the "rose-colored glasses" mentality. If an innovative game launched today with bugs and crap UI, like Ultima did, people would ring it's death knell instantly. No one would give it the time to discover it's unique world. But because it was the only MMO game in town, and the first MMO for many, it is given much nostalgic leeway. Face it, NO MMO is going to grab you like your first. The first love is always the sweetest.

 

 

For me, the lackluster nature of many MMOs now is the unfortunate result of the medium's own popularity. A thing gets popular, more producers want in on the new money-maker and suddenly everybody and their dog is trying to make an MMO, but without the willingness to take the risks that made some of those early games great.

But I so have to agree with the idea that one's first love is the best love. We're all a little jaded about anything that comes after because it can never quite measure up to our image of that initial infatuation.

So which is it? Are new games too bland or are we too jaded? A little of both, I think.

In any case, Adam, congratulations on your new column.

Oh most assuredly. I don't see my disenchantment with the long line of AAA themepark games as any different from my fatigue over beloved film fanchises with too many sequels, or a televison show that's gone on for what feels like far too many seasons. It doesn't mean themeparks aren't still viable, or even that I hate them. In fact I've spent some very enjoyable quality time in more than a few of them in the past years. However, to swtich to another anaology, I am now satiated and can't bring myself to take another bite. Having an alternative on the menu would go a long way in reigniting my interest.

If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16988

2/16/13 1:03:20 PM#35
Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

 

 

As to toning down your use of "toilet humor". Eh... I thought the jokes were amusing and was not offended in the slightest. Changing your writting style to appeal to a wider base of readers isn't a bad thing, but I also caution against letting a prudish minority decide for you what to write and how to write it. As at the end of the day the most important person who should feel good about your writting is you. Because if you feel you are being limited in your style of writing, your messege won't have the same passion or attention to detail, as when you are saying exactly what it is you want to say.

er, It has nothing to do with being offended.

I'm not offended. Very little offends me. however, I am also a "right place at the right time" type of person.

If I was offended by stuff like this I wouldn't be having a B movie night every thursday that ranges from Russ Meyer classics, to 70's Pam Grier movies to Jean Rollin 70's Vampire flicks. And everything in between.

It has to do with being a writer on a site and presenting one's material in a way that gets his message across in a way that is taken seriously, even with humor. it's looking at these writers as journalists of some sort and lending to their credibility.

pee-pee jokes are great and I enjoy a genital/urination joke as much as the next person who enjoys a genital/urination joke.

but when I'm on a website for mmo information and journalism I do expect that site to be more than a place for kids to look at their wee-wee's and snicker and giggle.

One thing I learned  years ago, and believe me I had a very foul mouth back then, is that people don't take you seriously when all they expect from you are f-bombs and toilet humor.

  steuss

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/05
Posts: 126

2/16/13 1:55:12 PM#36

Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

 

Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

  User Deleted
2/16/13 1:57:49 PM#37
Originally posted by steuss

Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

 

Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

 

Ok.

 

Quick question: How?

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

2/16/13 4:35:40 PM#38
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by steuss

Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

 

Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

 

Ok.

 

Quick question: How?

 

This should be interesting.

Armchair dev lays out plans to revolutionise the MMORPG field, professional devs slap heads in disbelief they didn't think of it first..

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  LJonte

Novice Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 30

2/16/13 5:57:23 PM#39
Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Oh most assuredly. I don't see my disenchantment with the long line of AAA themepark games as any different from my fatigue over beloved film fanchises with too many sequels, or a televison show that's gone on for what feels like far too many seasons. It doesn't mean themeparks aren't still viable, or even that I hate them. In fact I've spent some very enjoyable quality time in more than a few of them in the past years. However, to swtich to another anaology, I am now satiated and can't bring myself to take another bite. Having an alternative on the menu would go a long way in reigniting my interest.

Agreed.  I hold out hope that just as Indy creators on YouTube seem to be innovating and energizing what we watch, that Indy creators online (via Kickstarter and other means) will  help to innovate and energize what we play.  

And then someone will finally invent a viable Holodeck. :D

-Lisa Jonté
_________________________
Writer, Gamer, Malcontent
Fair Game at MMORPG.com

  FARGIN_WAR

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/12
Posts: 169

2/16/13 6:28:23 PM#40
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by steuss

Great Article! I have this same sentiment exactly. I want a world to play in without the rails. Without the levels, the skills, everything. Give me meaningful combat, meaninful casting, and a purpose beyhond the lame ass quest hubs and fex-ex quests.

 

Give me the ability to be epic if i choose, not exactly the same as everyone else.

 

Ok.

 

Quick question: How?

 

This should be interesting.

Armchair dev lays out plans to revolutionise the MMORPG field, professional devs slap heads in disbelief they didn't think of it first..

Well funnily enough it looks like there are some game developers out there that already know how, and who think that change is a viable option, XL Games, Above and Beyond Technologies, Goblinworks to name a few. In fact one of those games, ArcheAge has just launched and seems to be off to a great start. So I'm sorry, what exactly was your point again?

If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

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