I made a post related to this in the suggestions thread but thought I would make a topic to gauge the opinions of others on the forums. One thing that is dear to my heart about RvR gameplay, coming from DAOC, is that me and the other top guilds from Excalibur used to love roaming as a full group in the frontiers, fighting other groups, going to rest, and then cracking back on untill the zerg finally got us (or not!) :D

But, we always knew we could take some of the zerg down with us before we died....and that we had a fighting chance against 2 maybe even 3 other groups at a push.

I think what really enabled DAOC to thrive for the high realm ranked players was this sort of playstyle, and I want to know before I plunge into funding on Kickstater if CU will keep this sort of gameplay alive. I don't want to play it if its just going to be a massive zergfest. Sure, its fun playing like that sometimes, in relic raids/keep sieges/whatever but the rest of the time, skilled full groups all the way.

I think what enabled this was the right group size of 8 (so you could have speed, damage, CC, healing) and the length of crowd control spells unless purged. There needs to be a means to break it, and reduce its length yes, but it needs to be there.

Whats everyones thoughts, surely theres others out there that loved this about DAOC's model of RVR, should it be alive in CU? If Mark reads this - did you enjoy this about DAOC, and do you see the ability for full groups to play this way in CU?

I'd like to know before I put my money down!

I haven't played DAOC in its prime personally, but yea that type of gamestyle would be good. Iv played practically every half major MMO since Planetside 1 and running only 1 group simply isnt going to get you far in most of those games, to be the dominant force out on the battleground +18 has generally been required and I cant say im a fan of running that many people. You can get by as a skirmish group in most games but trying to take on zergs without lots of powerful AOE or CC as a small group, its not happening.

It's up to players how they play, surely.

The devs will provide us with an area to play in. They will put in trees and hills and keeps and other stuff.

Whether you personally zerg it up or go the 8-man route, or both, is entirely up to you.

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Originally posted by Nibs
It's up to players how they play, surely.

The devs will provide us with an area to play in. They will put in trees and hills and keeps and other stuff.

Whether you personally zerg it up or go the 8-man route, or both, is entirely up to you.

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Its really abit more than that, there needs to be the skills available to make small group VS zerg viable, without good CC's or high powered AOE it simply wont be possible to compete out there against zergs that can simply faceroll you.

Originally posted by skyexile

 

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Originally posted by Nibs
It's up to players how they play, surely.

 

The devs will provide us with an area to play in. They will put in trees and hills and keeps and other stuff.

Whether you personally zerg it up or go the 8-man route, or both, is entirely up to you.

---

 

Its really abit more than that, there needs to be the skills available to make small group VS zerg viable, without good CC's or high powered AOE it simply wont be possible to compete out there against zergs that can simply faceroll you.

True. But if those things are lacking the 8-mans will simply avoid the zergs. It happened in DAoC quite often.

On nights when we were 8-manning it we'd simply listen to the reports of where the various zergs were, where they were heading and what their plans were, and we'd go somewhere different. So, reports of the Hib zerg in Midgard and the Alb zerg was heading to defend Renaris, we'd head to Midgard for some 8-man action.

Or we'd get reports that people trying to join up with the zerg were being slaughtered by a Hib 8-man on the road to Excal so we'd tell the zerg leaders we'd deal with it and go patrol the road, getting our 8-man fix for the night in the process.

It wasn't often that the zergs would deliberately go 8-man hunting, though it did happen occassionally.

Both zerg and 8-man action was organic with neither being forced onto people by game design and both simply being enabled. At this point in time I see no reason to even suspect that CU will be any different.

Let's face it, MJ (must stop calling him that - always makes me think of Spider-man...) has seen what worked in DAoC. And he's seen what didn't work with WAR. Hopefully he's learnt from both experiences...

Originally posted by Nibs

It's up to players how they play, surely.

The devs will provide us with an area to play in. They will put in trees and hills and keeps and other stuff.

Whether you personally zerg it up or go the 8-man route, or both, is entirely up to you.

It is not that simple for sure. Players will do whatever is more effective. 

In daoc the veterans/high RR players preferred 8v8 because that is that gave them the most rps. The newbies/low RR players preferred zerging because they couldn't win many 8v8s and zerging was giving them more rps.

In WAR at launch players didn't even RvR because scenarios gave them more renown points. A bit after launch they just traded keeps because that became more effective.

In GW2 they zerg because only keep takes matter. Killing enemy players is almost worthless.

If they want many different playstyles in CU they will need 1) to balance zerging rps with 8v8 rps, 2) aoe long duration CC so veteran 8mans can take on newbie zergs, 3) player kills being much more effective progression than keep takes/crafting etc, 4) perma-stealth stealthers that aren't wanted in group RvR and have to solo/stealthzerg to progress(this is important if they want soloing and small group rvr too).

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Originally posted by boxsnd

 

In WAR at launch players didn't even RvR because scenarios gave them more renown points. A bit after launch they just traded keeps because that became more effective.

 

In GW2 they zerg because only keep takes matter. Killing enemy players is almost worthless.

 

If they want many different playstyles in CU they will need 1) to balance zerging rps with 8v8 rps, 2) aoe long duration CC so veteran 8mans can take on newbie zergs, 3) player kills being much more effective progression than keep takes/crafting etc, 4) perma-stealth stealthers that aren't wanted in group RvR and have to solo/stealthzerg to progress(this is important if they want soloing and small group rvr too).

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Its like you;re reading my mind, yea WAR's RP system was shit, I was the highest RR on my server for sometime, until the healers and BO farmers overtook me, it was utter shit design, there was so much diminishing returns on killing lower RR players than you, it was a joke, there shouldn't have been diminishing returns, keep their value the same, just reward players more for killing high RR players.

this was a pretty common sight for me:

http://imageshack.us/f/338/xilef165nd8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/520/xilef144by8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/522/xilef094yb7.jpg/

you will also notice that i generally have the highest XP in each of them too :/ ...thats just a small sample of the bullshit games i was in...

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Nibs

It's up to players how they play, surely.

The devs will provide us with an area to play in. They will put in trees and hills and keeps and other stuff.

Whether you personally zerg it up or go the 8-man route, or both, is entirely up to you.

It is not that simple for sure. Players will do whatever is more effective. 

 

In daoc the veterans/high RR players preferred 8v8 because that is that gave them the most rps. The newbies/low RR players preferred zerging because they couldn't win many 8v8s and zerging was giving them more rps.

 

In WAR at launch players didn't even RvR because scenarios gave them more renown points. A bit after launch they just traded keeps because that became more effective.

 

In GW2 they zerg because only keep takes matter. Killing enemy players is almost worthless.

 

If they want many different playstyles in CU they will need 1) to balance zerging rps with 8v8 rps, 2) aoe long duration CC so veteran 8mans can take on newbie zergs, 3) player kills being much more effective progression than keep takes/crafting etc, 4) perma-stealth stealthers that aren't wanted in group RvR and have to solo/stealthzerg to progress(this is important if they want soloing and small group rvr too).

Im sorry, but i strongly disagree with most of your points.

1- Ok, fine.

2- No this KILLED DAoC for many, many players and modern gamers will NOT put up with being removed from a fight for any extended duration because one "must-have" player has immobilised them all. Long duration, large area AOE CC turned DAoC into a CC fight for any size of group, it was boring as hell. I was in one of the top RVR groups on my server pre-TOA and after a while it got simply too easy to kill enemy groups, zergs, whatever because we had a great bard who could simply CC them first and win every single time. Watch the Dem Hibbies video from Excalibur, watch them kill 200+ Albs in open play in seconds simply because they had a high RR bard with a good connection playing in an opted PBAOE group. The BEST thing they ever did was reduce the CC timers in DAoC. Long duration sucked for those being CC'd and those winning every fight because of it. In short, CC good, long duration i-win CC bad.

3- Again, no. IF we are forced to repair keeps (a-la DAoC) and killing players is more rewarding (a-la DAoC) then players simply won't bother repairing keeps and it will be left to the same few players to do this chore while their realm mates are off farming RP's (a-la DAoC). Also if keep takes are not rewarding enough, players won't bother helping, they will simply run around farming other players instead.

4- Once again, i disagree and feel your missing the key point, one of the BIGGEST problems with DAoC was stealthers (and some other classes) being next to useless in groups. There is simply no eventuality where it can be acceptable for a player to choose the class they want to play and then be told "Sorry, thats a solo class, you'll never get a group, reroll a bard" or the like. Thats simply unacceptable UNLESS they CLEARLY STATE ON CHARACTER CREATION that this is a solo class and even than im not happy about it. They need to make every class viable in group rvr or stealthers will simply zerg (the "Honourable soloer" syndrome where almost all of them zerg surf to high RR than yell at other players for "adding" on their fights). I would like to see a build option for all classes that gives them a group and solo build which they can switch to suit their playstyle.

@zinzan

2) give me an example of a better CC system that led to more fun open world PvP in another game. The vast majority of ex-DAoCers  consider it the best PvP they have played. I don't know of any other MMO like that. Also this most certainly didn't kill daoc. We all know what killed daoc.

3) It sounds like you want keep trading. There should be other motivations to own a keep, like DF, relics, farming rps by defending the keep, or just making your guild famous and displaying your huge banner to whoever comes close etc. But making the keeps part of the progression is a classic mistake that I doubt they will make again after the WAR disaster.

4) DAoC RvR was like a perfectly working food chain. The zergs ate the groups who ate the small groups who ate the soloers. If you make every class a group char you break the chain. Why would someone solo? So the soloers will go extinct. If there are no soloers, why would the small groups go out since they won't have soloers as easy rps. In the end only the zergs will remain.

Originally posted by boxsnd

@zinzan

 

2) give me an example of a better CC system that led to more fun open world PvP in another game. The vast majority of ex-DAoCers  consider it the best PvP they have played. I don't know of any other MMO like that. Also this most certainly didn't kill daoc. We all know what killed daoc.

 

3) It sounds like you want keep trading. There should be other motivations to own a keep, like DF, relics, farming rps by defending the keep, or just making your guild famous and displaying your huge banner to whoever comes close etc. But making the keeps part of the progression is a classic mistake that I doubt they will make again after the WAR disaster.

 

4) DAoC RvR was like a perfectly working food chain. The zergs ate the groups who ate the small groups who ate the soloers. If you make every class a group char you break the chain. Why would someone solo? So the soloers will go extinct. If there are no soloers, why would the small groups go out since they won't have soloers as easy rps. In the end only the zergs will remain.

2- Long duration CC is the problem, i loved DAoC's CC system ONCE it had been fixed. Do you really think modern mmo gamers will put up with being excluded from a fight for 60 seconds? You were supporting LONG DURATION CC, this was my argument.

3- Look at it like a see-saw, they need balance between keep take rewards and player killing rewards or the see-saw tips in favour of one or the other and players either ignore keeps or keep-trade.

4- Your food-chain analogy is one that can only really be applied to players who never competed on an equal footing. Zerg v Zerg was great fun and fair, 1v1 was the bread-and-butter of solo players, some would spend hours hunting around for one good 1v1 fight and ALL competitive groups hunted for the enemy 8-man guild groups...we did and almost always ignored solo players and avoided zergs to get good 8v8 fights. This is how the top guilds/soloers gained notoriety and respect and it bred a very healthy and competitive environment. Man, i remember killing an Alb mincer called Alpha on my old server who was known as the best solo player around at the time, the rush from beating him 1v1 was simply unparalelled for me in my 13 years of mmo gaming. Being rolled by superior numbers was all part of the risk and the fun. Additionally my main point was that there is no way any player should be forced to either solo or group depending on his chosen class. All classes should be able to do both.

The behaviour that I have described was evident, at least on Percival, pretty much from week 1. Certainly before realm points, realm ranks and realm abilities, battlegrounds and battlegroups even existed. When the only reasons for RvR were fun and the eventual goal of relic captures. Waaay back when enemies all appeared as 'A Viking Invader'.

At 15th level we all headed out into Emain and the realm wars started. Even then there were zergs and there were 8-mans around the periphery.

Sure, WAR showed us that people will take the path of least resistance. As long as there is no path of least resistance then people can be free to play in which ever way they find most fun. Whether that be 8-manning, zerging, crafting, harvesting, building, whatever.

We have plenty of proof that RvR based solely on zerging and keep taking fails (WAR, GW 2). I hope CU would support all types of playstyles from soloing, running a duo, running a full group, and zerging just like DAOC did.

Put keeps, towers, relics, etc. out there with reasons to take them (opening ports, gaining relic bonuses). Make player kills worth points that accumulate and grant the right to purchase powerful abilities. Then let players decide how they want to spend their play time.

Originally posted by Nibs

The behaviour that I have described was evident, at least on Percival, pretty much from week 1. Certainly before realm points, realm ranks and realm abilities, battlegrounds and battlegroups even existed. When the only reasons for RvR were fun and the eventual goal of relic captures. Waaay back when enemies all appeared as 'A Viking Invader'.

At 15th level we all headed out into Emain and the realm wars started. Even then there were zergs and there were 8-mans around the periphery.

Sure, WAR showed us that people will take the path of least resistance. As long as there is no path of least resistance then people can be free to play in which ever way they find most fun. Whether that be 8-manning, zerging, crafting, harvesting, building, whatever.

LOL, thank you so much, im having a nostalgia flashback to my first steps into the frontier at level 18 with my guild, finding our way to the first keep and taking numerous screenshots for our guild webpage, heh, fun memories :)

Originally posted by meddyck

We have plenty of proof that RvR based solely on zerging and keep taking fails (WAR, GW 2). I hope CU would support all types of playstyles from soloing, running a duo, running a full group, and zerging just like DAOC did.

Put keeps, towers, relics, etc. out there with reasons to take them (opening ports, gaining relic bonuses). Make player kills worth points that accumulate and grant the right to purchase powerful abilities. Then let players decide how they want to spend their play time.

This ^^.

Agree completely.

Calling zergs a "bunch of newbies with no skill" is painting with too broad a brush.   Such words speak more to the bitterness of the speaker rather than anything resembling the truth.  Guild run zergs tend to be more organized and more about skill & tactics.  The problem is that it's much harder to herd a huge amount of cats and takes a very effective leader.  Which results in more of the "safety in numbers, but no direction" type zergs.  I honestly believe that not nearly enough brainpower and innovativeness has been applied to this problem in the mmo industry.  The hope is always that guilds will take care of this.  However, it seems more often than not people in the same guild aren't playing at the same time.  Which leads to a hodge podge of folks affiliated with different guilds grouping together in "pick-up" zergs with no coordination.  I'd love to see a system that solves this problem.  I think it would make organized zergs more common place.  And there's nothing more thrilling in an mmo, imho, than an epic organized zerg-on-zerg battle.

Bottom line:  8-man roller type play has it's place, but it's not exactly a type of playstyle that can allow an mmo to reach its full potential.  There's no epic-feel to the game if there is nothing but 8-mans.   You need those zergs for the danger/suspense feeling.  I definitely like both styles of playing, I just don't like the "artificial booster" crap that developers devise for small man groups in order to even the odds.  More often than not, they only piss off 80% of the population to appease the 5% of crybabies.  War is not fair.

This game is YEARS away and you are sitting around thinking about zerg tactics? I mean, seriously? Get a dabble of something and BAM people are writing toon names, drawing pictures, and posting crap out of sheer boredom ( Like I am right now ).

You will have literally a 1000 days or more to think about this. /shrug

There will always be some fullgroup-"isolatists" who want to avoid zerging. To be honest ... I did that in DAoC because it was more challanging. My fullgroup even encountered zergs with less RR. Though it was challanging and fun if we just fought about 2 fullgroups with one (more or less) highrr fullgroup.

Even on my Warhammer Online server and on my GuildWars 2 world are guilds who want to avoid zergs. They won't get much rewards at all but zerging in modern games seems much easier ... And casual-friendly because you can join up without stress and leave when you want.

I can remember that when our healer or bard had to leave ... Well ... We were pretty lucky to find a replacement. But we were okay with it. Nowadays I and my guild would still isolate ourselves from public zergs if they don't need that much help.