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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why the MMO is nice at begining and bad in the end? (about leveling)

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62 posts found
  User Deleted
2/15/13 12:07:50 AM#41
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Yakkin
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Sandbox is no different. Whether there is an actual end game like inmany themeparks or just a repeat of pvp/craft... like in many sandboc its still the same thing. Repeated content. Same gameplay, same interaction. That's the problem, it gets boring, tjere is nothing new to learn, figure out or in many caaes do.

Even the desert has borders...

Yes.  I didn't say there is a practical way out of it.  I don't think there is actually.  The part that makes games intriguing is often the challenge of a puzzle or difficult encounter, or the thrill of something new.  Once the newness is gone you are left with the game itself, sometimes the gameplay is challenging as in you need to employ new and different strategies to conquer than it's great.  When you've mastered that task whats left?

Some games are just fun as a shoot em up, god mode play, those are great in short bursts.  But long term play needs something more, a challenge, or a least a goal.  Most games just don't offer enough variety in them.

You are playing the same way in WoW lvl 80 as you are at level 10, you've allready mastered most of that task.  In the genre we are basically playing the same way as we did 12 years ago.  We've allready mastered that.

Want to get the thrill at the end as you do at the beginning?  The only way is do something new.

In RL hobbies last longer as you can always learn a new technique, make it a little bit better, do something a little or a lot different.  But in a game with limited options (and they all have limits) this really isn't possible.

That was my way of saying "I agree". :P

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

2/15/13 4:18:16 AM#42
If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game. The main focus should be on the "end game". I far more enjoy in challenging dungeons, raiding, or some big world events with fully developed character then in slow leveling with boring "go kill 9 rats" or "bring 20 flowers" quests.
  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

2/15/13 4:25:33 AM#43

in reply to the OP

in short its tradition. i know that sounds corny and is a bad excuse buts its the truth, as far bakc as most people can rember a game with level takes expidionaly more xp tp rech the next level.

why *shrugs* beats me. some MMOs break this others dont, to be honest i dont actully have a preference its just how it is.

im sure ots of people her have given really really long reason why you should agree with them but meh, its opions and not something that can be argued in facts.

 

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Graey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/10
Posts: 218

2/15/13 4:44:01 AM#44
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus
This is why it's important to have player-generated content as well as game content.

i agree and its still odd to me how so many games release with 0 systems in place for player made content.. and many that do add it like housing for instance usually do it well down the line in the games lifespan.. really why I'm looking forward to NW and hoping their new foundry system is worth putting time into

Played the Beta to NW. From what I played I don't see it becoming a sleeper hit. I might be wrong but...

I think the concept of the foundry is a great idea. It gives players something to do  and the devs leeway in terms of non player made content. I think games like wow, rift, gw2 do not have a base system set up for that. What would be really nice is if there was an MMO, with all the parts necessary to function in  a changing environment.

 

Player made content

Pvp as part of the game not tacked on

One world, or a variation of this.

Leveling should be slowed, but there should be sub leveling sort of like the mini-dings in EQ2.

With sub leveling there should be something that you get in between to keep people moving. Perhaps dungeons level requirements, and you have to progress in the dungeon to unlock the next tier of your leveling process like FF11.

Great story and Lore

Players should start the game with nothing. I really dont understand how a player can start the game with items already. Picture them shipwrecked on an island or something with nothing but cloth. All mechanics are taught until you become proficient at them.

 

No FFA PVP. unless its done right. if you cant stop griefing then at the least have a FFA server and non FFA server.

Housing.

 

You know just have one big ass dungeon in the middle of nowhere with say 100+ floors. and the player builds pretty much everything else. around that dungeon.

  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

2/15/13 4:56:50 AM#45
Originally posted by Emrendil
If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game. The main focus should be on the "end game". I far more enjoy in challenging dungeons, raiding, or some big world events with fully developed character then in slow leveling with boring "go kill 9 rats" or "bring 20 flowers" quests.

WHY, sorry but really why what happend to MMOs being about the adventure about the story why is everyone in such a HUGE hurry to get to the end a hit each other in PVP is that all anyone cares about anymore.

i miss when i could spend months playing a game with friends and learning about the world and lore now all anyone wants to do is get to the ends and read the walkthrough and be ubber.

to hell with that i miss my stories and immerison dammit

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/15/13 5:56:24 AM#46
Originally posted by Squeak69
Originally posted by Emrendil
If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game.

WHY, sorry but really why what happend to MMOs being about the adventure about the story why is everyone in such a HUGE hurry to get to the end a hit each other in PVP is that all anyone cares about anymore.

You're describing two polar opposite models, that's all. 

Some focus more on the leveling content, some focus more on the "end game" content.

I wrastled with a goal of chasing down and applying the beatdown to Arthas for...about 18 months all together. That was the "adventure" and the "Story", despite only involving ten levels of leveling content (less than a month). It also involved many dozen other stories along the way, goals both short and long.

And I've also spent ten years on leveling content without approaching the cap, the extreme at the other end.

PvP? Some people focus entirely (and only) on that, for their own reasons. Other guys like focusing on Building Stuff. Or Exploring. Or crafting. I've been know to dig roleplaying, even to the exclusion of any of the Mechanics systems. (It is common for gamers to grow bored enough to change their "favorite" focus entirely, from time to time.)

Not my place to tell any other people what the "right" way to play is.

Good thing we have all of these titles to choose from.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  pongdun

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 63

2/15/13 11:44:05 AM#47
Hey Squeak69 the problem is that this thing, leveling with friends, learning about the world, etc it doesnt exist anymore, they don't make the game in a way that there's something to learn or found out about the world, leveling became just grinding. If they make a way that leveling would be good nobody would be complaning about it. In Tera for example it's fun to level until level 20m that's when you are still having fun, meeting new mobs, etc. After this the thing become boring, even the mobs are the same (with some modified horns and colors), nothing new, totally boring and stupid! And then you realize you have to face this from 20 to 60.... it's worst than mc donalds job!!!
  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/15/13 11:47:44 AM#48
Originally posted by nebullae

Guys I know that maybe someone already posted about this, but my doubt is:

Why does the developers do a system that you can level in a good timing when you are low level and them it gets so hard when you are on mid to high levels. Thats tottaly not nice. I played lots of MMO and all of them have this (almost all), you can level 4 or 5 levels a day at the begining but not even 1 level a day in the end!!!!

Other thing is that when you are starting a game, it's much more cool, more players, so it keeps you going... but as you level you become more lonely and it gets boring. This happens more in asians MMOs I believe.

Why do you think developers do this? Is that a lack of sense or perception, or maybe bad work, what you think?

I don't mind the xp arc, that is part of the game.  But often the starter areas are better developed than the mid and end areas- I understand why this is done but it always leaves you a little disappointed.  It also results in packed early zones as people experiment with alts and packed cap zones/ instances/ whatever and the rest of the world empty and all the effort put into it for nought.  

I would actually prefer to have multi-level zones.  I would like to revisit that level 10 zone at 40 to complete higher level parts of earlier quests.  

  pongdun

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 63

2/15/13 11:47:46 AM#49
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Squeak69
Originally posted by Emrendil
If you ask me, leveling should be really really short. More like an introduction to the game.

WHY, sorry but really why what happend to MMOs being about the adventure about the story why is everyone in such a HUGE hurry to get to the end a hit each other in PVP is that all anyone cares about anymore.

You're describing two polar opposite models, that's all. 

Some focus more on the leveling content, some focus more on the "end game" content.

I wrastled with a goal of chasing down and applying the beatdown to Arthas for...about 18 months all together. That was the "adventure" and the "Story", despite only involving ten levels of leveling content (less than a month). It also involved many dozen other stories along the way, goals both short and long.

And I've also spent ten years on leveling content without approaching the cap, the extreme at the other end.

PvP? Some people focus entirely (and only) on that, for their own reasons. Other guys like focusing on Building Stuff. Or Exploring. Or crafting. I've been know to dig roleplaying, even to the exclusion of any of the Mechanics systems. (It is common for gamers to grow bored enough to change their "favorite" focus entirely, from time to time.)

Not my place to tell any other people what the "right" way to play is.

Good thing we have all of these titles to choose from.

Ice sincerily we really have some titles to choose from but the great majority of it (99%) are crap, old or have this stupid grinding system. Come on guys, let's tell the truth it's really not like old games anymore. When in my opinion when in a game, the players just wanna go fast to max level this means your leveling system is crap, is boring and stupid. And more than that, if when the players reach max level your endgame is crap too, they all will quit!

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/15/13 12:05:36 PM#50
Originally posted by pongdun

(99%) are crap

If a mind is that completely closed, what do you expect developers can do to fix it?

Watch these threads carefully, A huge percentage of them are entirely reactionary--I don't want any new game at all, I want an ancient one as it existed fifteen years ago, please clone it, just fix the bugs and update the graphics. EZ!

The original developers couldn't keep their games entirely static (which we will happily grouse at them for, the TOAs or the NGEs or whatever ancient grudge we're still nursing). Even when and where those ancient games are operating, we can't play one (omg graphics so outdated, it's not the same game it was, nanana).

What chance does a new developer have to hit the unique and magical combimation of "feelings" these people are trying to recover from their lost youths?  Realistically?

:point at the guy listing 30 ex-games in his resume:

Can he be pleased, at all? Or is he the high-maintenance type of customer who's more expensive to try to keep than to lose?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/15/13 12:08:09 PM#51
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by pongdun

(99%) are crap

Once your mind is that completely closed, what do you expect developers can do to fix it?

Watch these threads carefully, A huge percentage of them are entirely reactionary--I don't want any new game at all, I want an ancient one as it existed fifteen years ago, please clone it, just fix the bugs and update the graphics. EZ!

The original developers couldn't keep their games entirely static (which we will happily grouse at them for, the TOAs or the NGEs or whatever ancient grudge we're still nursing). Even when and where those ancient games are operating, we can't play one (omg graphics so outdated, it's not the same game it was, nanana).

What chance does a new developer have to hit the unique and magical combimation of "feelings" these people are trying to recover from their lost youths?  Realistically?

:point at the guy listing 30 ex-games in his resume:

Can he be pleased, at all? Or is he the high-maintenance type of customer who's more expensive to keep than to lose?

If you spent too much time searching for that magical first year when you found pubs you would wind up alcoholic.  An extreme and entirely irrelevent example, but I think it is literally nothing like this with mmo's.  In conclusion no-one is ever going to rediscover the magic of their first mmo experience.  

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/15/13 12:10:46 PM#52
In conclusion no-one is ever going to rediscover the magic of their first mmo experience.  

Bingo.

But that won't stop them from trying, year after year, topic after topic.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/15/13 12:18:08 PM#53
Originally posted by Icewhite
In conclusion no-one is ever going to rediscover the magic of their first mmo experience.  

Bingo.

But that won't stop them from trying, year after year, topic after topic.

You know those 'older couples' you see who claim they make each other feel like lovestruck teenagers again, then they marry and divorce within a year.  That is what I see on mmorpg.com again and again.  

 

  Drakxii

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 599

2/15/13 12:51:37 PM#54


Originally posted by MightyChasm

  In conclusion no-one is ever going to rediscover the magic of their first mmo experience.  


 

I just don't agree. If this was true I would be complain that no FPS lives up to Doom or that no TBS is a good as Civ1.

IMO MMORPGs just anrt being made for the same people as they use to be, and that makes me sad.

I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  User Deleted
2/15/13 1:05:28 PM#55
Originally posted by Drakxii

Originally posted by MightyChasm

 

  In conclusion no-one is ever going to rediscover the magic of their first mmo experience.  


I just don't agree. If this was true I would be complain that no FPS lives up to Doom or that no TBS is a good as Civ1.

IMO MMORPGs just anrt being made for the same people as they use to be, and that makes me sad.

Actually I'd argue that the MMOs ARE still being made for the same people; it's just that the same people have changed over the years and their priorities are different.

On top of that (attempting slippery slope/conspiracy, get your popcorn out), I've always had a hunch that many of the "veterans" who lament the loss of the old days are also the people who most likely caused the onslaught of "easy mode, carebear" features in the first place.

What do I mean by this? Think about it. Those games back in the day might have had steady populations and all that jazz, but I have no doubt in my mind that ther would have been a lot of people who were complaining about how tedious it was, or how awful the community was (AKA not that different from now), so they start asking for changes. The devs comply, and over the years those MMOs morph into the "horrible carebear, not the same as before" stuff they are today.

Here is the kicker: All of those so called veterans who bemoan the loss of the old days? They're the ones who started the whole mess of "dumbing down", and upon realizing this, started backpedalling as fast as possible and shifted the blame to the new generation of players, who for all intents and purposes probably had no idea why they were being blamed for something that had occured before they came along, so as to avoid taking responsibility.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/15/13 1:07:07 PM#56
Originally posted by Drakxii
IMO MMORPGs just anrt being made for the same people as they use to be, and that makes me sad.

Terrible thing to suspect your successors aren't fit to hold your crown.

But...most MMO players weren't fit to inherit the crown from MUDs, either.

I feel bad for my 1200 baud modem. He was a hard worker and didn't deserve to get shut out by broadband.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2293

2/15/13 1:13:33 PM#57
Any game is more fun close to the beginning and not nearly as fun towards the end. It has to do with mastering it or experiencing everything you wanted to and at the end you are just going through the motions. It doesn't help that themeparks are so similarly designed and it makes the learning to mastery process even shorter.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Drakxii

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 599

2/15/13 1:22:00 PM#58
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Drakxii
IMO MMORPGs just anrt being made for the same people as they use to be, and that makes me sad.

Terrible thing to suspect your successors aren't fit to hold your crown.

But...most MMO players weren't fit to inherit the crown from MUDs, either.

I feel bad for my 1200 baud modem. He was a hard worker and didn't deserve to get shut out by broadband.

Way to put words in my month there buddy.  I never even implied that they were worse or that I was better.  I just feel that the genre hasn't even tried to make a game for people like me.

 

@Yakkin 

I will agree there is a large group of those that thought they wanted to easier but really didn't.  But i just feel as there are just as many old timers that never asked for and never wanted an easier/shallower MMOs.

I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  pongdun

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 63

2/15/13 1:30:29 PM#59
mmmoguy43 I don't think it has to be like that, a solution for that would be creating the game like if it was 2 games on 1. The endgame should be something nice, cool and with real stuff to do (with lots of interaction between players). But this is not even my complain in this post, it's the leveling before the endgame that becomes such horrible! I like PVP a lot and the problem is that in lots of game you just can do decent pvp when you reach max level, and to reach it you must "suffer" instead of having fun!
  User Deleted
2/15/13 1:36:32 PM#60
Originally posted by Drakxii

@Yakkin 

I will agree there is a large group of those that thought they wanted to easier but really didn't.  But i just feel as there are just as many old timers that never asked for and never wanted an easier/shallower MMOs.

I don't deny that there probably are people who were just minding their own business and got caught in the tide of stuff they never wanted, but you gotta admit: All of the crap they hate had to have come from somewhere. Maybe small bits of the new generation had something to do with it, but I'm inclined to think that part of the root of the problem comes from the same generation as the veterans, and I wouldn't be surprised if those guys who moaned about the tedium of the games in that era are now currently backpedalling and pretending they had nothing to do with it, all the while throwing a hissy fit at the new generation to avoid the blame.

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