Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Our guild is a top guild in EQ. Where do I find the time, what time? I don't play more than someone else, we just play more focused that's all, we know each other, we min-max, everyone has maxed AA.

I don't get where people get this notion from that top MMO guilds play more than casuals, there are many casuals who play way more than I do, they're just not focused on min-max.

When they introduce a new level cap our guild has maxed their levels in a matter of days while other players take months. On average we tend to play less than other people.

Most people in our guild are just normal people with jobs who play no more than someone else would.

 

Since you use the word "clan" I assume you're referring to other games, I don't know how it works in other games, maybe there are people who play all day just to get to the top, in Everquest that's not how it works, you min-max and you eventually get to the point where you play in a top guild, it has very little to do with how long you play but more with how you play.

I'm not entirely convinced.

 

The problem it that it takes a long time to 'max' your character out. The 'max' level has probably been imposed so that the games company can say that they are protecting players' health. It doesn't mean the max level ensures a balenced lifestyle.

Everything's relative, i.e - how many hours per day do you play EQ to be in a top guild? You might not think it's that much, but time yourself. When I play a game, time goes by fast.

 

About 3 hours, 5 times per week, which to me is not that much, and I have an RA of about 80%, so I skip some days now and then. I see some casuals play 5 hours every day or more, so I don't think I play *that* much, most people sit in front of their TV for 3 hours every night.

Fair enough.

I think it might also differ per game though. We are highly effective in EQ in our guild simply because EQ is an MMO where grouping gives you far more XP than playing solo. But EQ is not the only game where this is true, in many games grouping gives you a type of XP bonus and it gives you a secure environment to play in.

Most top guilds in those games are well-oiled machines that have a strong structure and play on specific hours of the day, the fact the whole guild plays on the same hours make the guild far more effective and far more productive.

In a casual guild people log on when they please, and as a result, they lose "productivity". I think people might be surprised if they actually looked at players in top guilds, in many games they do not play a lot, they are just highly productive with their time, and when they play, they min-max, you play with the right people, in the right settings, always with people you know, and the result is that you get far more out of those few hours than anyone else would, add to that they you are usually wearing far better gear than anyone else and it becomes rather easy to "stay on top". In EQ it's very important who you play with and how you play, not how long you play.

We can get a new character to max level in a week, while a casual player will take months, simply because in a structured guild you will have people who make arrangements to log on the same time with the right classes, with the right skill and knowledge and with the goal to be productive, how can you do it in the least amount of time and th least amount of work.

EQ is also an old game though, people know by now how to play, and guilds and raids are big in EQ, 54 players for every raid, so most guilds have a good structure and hierarchy, most casual guilds play to play, they don't put productivity pretty high on their list.

It is not only the time they spent playing that makes them better. It is also the how they play. They analyze and practice. Your average player does nothing of the sort, so their play time is unavoidably inefficient. There was a guy in League of Legends who got to be in a top level team only with 3 months of experience with the game. It matters who is teaching you and with whom you're playing with.

If you never challenge yourself, never analyze what you did wrong and what you did right, never theorycraft, examine the metagame or plan tactics and strategy, you may never reach the top level or it will take a lot of time to get there.

The only difference between competitive players and regular players is that competitive players take gaming a step further. This does not mean they do not play for fun, however. I am a competitive player and I can't imagine playing a game on a competitive level if I don't like it at the same time. But when you're "at the top", there's no better PvP than that.

Originally posted by coretex666

I am not coming with an answer...sorry.

I just wanted to express my agreement sort of. I always wondered who are the people in e.g. "Paragon" guild in WoW who were getting world first achievement on practically every significant boss there was.

As a regular working person, I have potential time to play since 8-12 max.

I can imagine those people are students, unemployed, retired, home office workers with a relaxed job, people with enough money not to work,...

I know a few of the old FI-only Paragon members through a friend. Outside new content launches, they play quite reasonably (few hours a night) and have day jobs. At launches, they arrange free days from work and play long-ass sessions they're famous of.

A fair amount sit around drawing ssi benefits (welfare version of disability), and live with their parents... true story, sad, but true.

Worse, we are the tax paying suckers paying for them to do this.

I don't raid so I'm not familiar with what the average raider's life is like, however the three people I know that do raid are a CMO, a Senior Sales Director and a Lead Game Designer. None of them are the basement dweller that raiders are often portrayed as.

As Quirhid, CalmOceans and others have pointed out, it seems more like raiders maximize time and are efficient at organization, not so much that they spend endless time.

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

In DUST - and probably in all MMORPGs - there seems to be several hundered players who are in the top few clans or guilds. They are the elite of the game - by a large margin - and they seem to play the game like it's a job. 

 

If there is a tournament, their clans will be the top few teams.

 

If you want to join them, the expectation is that you play the game like it's a job as well.

 

But how do these people find the time? What do they do for a living?

 

I'm just curious as to whether anyone has an insight into this.

just wondering.... when did shooter became mmos? :)

Originally posted by Thane

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

In DUST - and probably in all MMORPGs - there seems to be several hundered players who are in the top few clans or guilds. They are the elite of the game - by a large margin - and they seem to play the game like it's a job. 

If there is a tournament, their clans will be the top few teams.

If you want to join them, the expectation is that you play the game like it's a job as well.

But how do these people find the time? What do they do for a living?

I'm just curious as to whether anyone has an insight into this.

just wondering.... when did shooter became mmos? :)

When they became persistent and added RPG elements. In the case of DUST 514, those players and DUST itself are part of the EVE Universe. They are interacting with the entire EVE playerbase when they are playing.

I think it just comes down to what their priorities are.  If something is important to you. you'll always find the time to do it.

Years ago i used to work four jobs so my wife could be a stay at home mom to our two boys, and still found time to game 40+ hours a week.  Bit older and wiser now, but still on 40+ a week :)

One guy I knew, in WoW, used to do all the encoding for one of those text message advertsing services. Bascially he'd get the advert details put it all together and send it to the server for sending out to everyone elses phones on a database. It pretty much meant he worked from home and had a lot of time on he's hands.

Incidently he met he's wife at a depression clinc, they had two kids and it'd need a scotch before I told you how that story ended....

Leaving aside the small minority suffering from an obsessive compulsive disorder, who are they? They are the under-challenged.

You know? The people who have jobs that are so mind-numbing, boring and/or degrading or have such an easy time with their studies that they use their games as THE place where they really apply themselves and show their stuff. If you think this is a small minority, think again and take a good look around you at the people you know in real life who could be doing so much more...

To many of us casual players they just seem like hyper OCD aliens. Get to know some and you'll see they are typically far above the norm in intelligence and ability.

I neither can nor want to do what they do, but unlike many of you, I have no contempt for them: just a lot of respect for their ability to play the games we all play but at another, elite level.

PS. This is just my opinion. I might be totally wrong and they could really be aliens.

Most are younger and living at home I would assume or just have a lot of free time, I play a lot and I am married, have 3 teenagers but I only work 3 12's and a 6hr day, so in essence I have 4 days to play games.

I put in 1-3 hrs a night and most of my days off playing, Sundays are family day and I only play before we go out.

"One of my guildees was a millionaire business man, responsible, good decision maker, blahhhhh"

I like how some toss this around and expect a 'nuff said' return. We've all had that one, or even two in our guild, but it BY FAR, did not come close to representing the rest of the freeloaders in the guild...

Originally posted by Bossalinie

"One of my guildees was a millionaire business man, responsible, good decision maker, blahhhhh"

I like how some toss this around and expect a 'nuff said' return. We've all had that one, or even two in our guild, but it BY FAR, did not come close to representing the rest of the freeloaders in the guild...

I'm not sure what thread you are reading, but in this one the 'nuff said' crowd is the other end of the spectrum. Did someone hit a nerve, maybe?

Originally posted by CalmOceans

I think it might also differ per game though. We are highly effective in EQ in our guild simply because EQ is an MMO where grouping gives you far more XP than playing solo. But EQ is not the only game where this is true, in many games grouping gives you a type of XP bonus and it gives you a secure environment to play in.

Most top guilds in those games are well-oiled machines that have a strong structure and play on specific hours of the day, the fact the whole guild plays on the same hours make the guild far more effective and far more productive.

In a casual guild people log on when they please, and as a result, they lose "productivity". I think people might be surprised if they actually looked at players in top guilds, in many games they do not play a lot, they are just highly productive with their time, and when they play, they min-max, you play with the right people, in the right settings, always with people you know, and the result is that you get far more out of those few hours than anyone else would, add to that they you are usually wearing far better gear than anyone else and it becomes rather easy to "stay on top". In EQ it's very important who you play with and how you play, not how long you play.

We can get a new character to max level in a week, while a casual player will take months, simply because in a structured guild you will have people who make arrangements to log on the same time with the right classes, with the right skill and knowledge and with the goal to be productive, how can you do it in the least amount of time and th least amount of work.

EQ is also an old game though, people know by now how to play, and guilds and raids are big in EQ, 54 players for every raid, so most guilds have a good structure and hierarchy, most casual guilds play to play, they don't put productivity pretty high on their list.

Some people do not like spending their time min maxing and being "productive" in an MMORPG. Some people prefer to stop and smell the roses rather than be in the gear treadmill, or experiment with builds and equipment, or just putter about and explore the game. Believe it or not, not everyone enjoys raiding or min maxing.

Anyway, getting back to the subject on hand, I know one heck of a lot of MMORPG players who are chronically ill and the internet/social gaming is an outlet for them to have a more normal life. Quite a few of them become major achievers in MMORPGs and cornerstones of important guilds and raid groups. They might be on social benefits, for whatever reason, but they always tell me about how important the internet has been for them, especially to avoid complete social isolation.

Very few of the gamers that spend long periods of time in game that I know are basement dwellers or unemployed scroungers or whatever. In fact, most people I have met, raiders and non-raiders both, are people with jobs, sometimes kids, and other things ongoing.

Probably some of the jobholders are lucky and are close to their jobs so they do not waste a lot of time everyday in traffic. That will certainly wear away what kind of free time you have to spend on games !

A lot of the hard core raiders especially put in LESS hours than casuals because they play hard and play to win. I have seen both sides as I have spent years raiding with casuals as well as a couple years raiding hard core. The idea that hard core gamers must be basement dwellers is largely a myth. Most hardcore players were adults with jobs.

Hard core guilds are just very efficient and ultimately just better than casuals. They are not there for the friendships or other socializing. If someone is not pulling their weight in a hard core raid guild they get kicked out. Getting rid of slackers, Leeroy Jenkins types, and all arround bad players makes top guilds extremely efficient. Casuals often complain that it takes an hour just to form up a raid but the reality is in a hard core guild form up is done in less than 5 minutes. They get in, get the job done, and then go home. It is surprising how much can be accomplished if there is zero tollerance for fooling arround.

Hard core players make gaming a lifestyle. This means they will take vaction time off when new content is released especially if there is a level cap in crease. The may put in marathon sessions for a few days but when that is over they are back to raiding just a couple hours for 3 or 4 days a week. The difference between hard core and casual is not the time spent but that the hard core player takes the game very seriously.