Originally posted by umcorian

Wow. Based on this article, it looks like Cryptic is about to land a dragon-sized egg with this one. *Five* character classes? Really? You're going to have a game like D&D, known for it's infinite diversity of characters... and have less than half the classes of your average competitors? 

Cryptic, IMHO, has been somewhat second rate. Phenominal artistic direction in all their titles, but very very skimpy on substance. 

Yea 5 classes at release is a HUGE mistake here.  I was about to click purchase on the $200 founders pack, and then heard in the livestrem here that there was only 5 classes.  I immediatly exited out.

If they ever add more classes I may join in the game as it's FTP, but after release I won't have nearly the hype I had a few days ago to pony up $200.  So I can almost guarntee I won't be spending nearly that much money if I join at a later date.

Huge blunder on Cryptic's part here.

Originally posted by AstralEcho

After my initial misgivings, I ultimately found Neverwinter to be a pretty fun game for what it is, that being a co-op dungeon crawler first and foremost. As an MMORPG, it's sorely lacking in a large explorable world and any sense of permanence, but with most recent titles being little more than glorified single-player games where the sole purpose is to quest to cap and then spam a few dungeons for gear, this isn't anything terribly new.

The value of Neverwinter is ultimately going to be in the Foundry, for me. If I approach Neverwinter as an MMORPG, it's a failure in my eyes, but if I approach it as a co-op dungeon crawler with a persistent "hub" zone for roleplay / trade and a system that allows me to create my own campaigns to share with others, then it does a damn good job. It isn't the years-of-time-invested MMO messiah I and many others are looking for, but it's an excellent title to keep in the library of games I visit regularly.

Who would have guessed that a DnD game would be more group and dungeon focused? /sarcasm

If you consider Neverwinter a failure as a MMO, then so is every other MMO that has instanced dungeons.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Nhoj1983

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

I'll put my two cents in here.. TERA type combat is fantastic.. My experience of this last weekend was a wonderful one.  I know that here is some push back but I don't agree with it.  Though I can understand the fear connected with the hardest push back.  You're right that content is the most important element.. and I also beleave that there is a place for the traditional type of gameplay but it's a shrinking market... People want something different and while not the whole answer action oriented combat is part of it.  I think you're taking a bit of an extreme position in saying that it'll devolve into a arcade game.  It's not so black and white.  While I'll argue any day that the traditional combat model still works I'll also argue that this is a step forward.  You can disagree but it comes down to people don't like change but often change is a good thing.  That doesn't mean that you're wrong but everyone has a right their own taste but if I were making an mmo right now.. I'd steer very clear from being too traditional.

 

There is no current data either way, to prove that character driven combat is a shrinking market.  The genre is experimenting and merely pushing action combat in order to appeal to console gamers and people who play single player first person shooters.  It may pay off in the end or it could truly backfire on them.  We'll find out in the next couple of years.  They may fail to draw in those non-MMO gamers or they may find that backlash from the original crowd to be more expensive than they realized.  I just find it odd that they are so completely moving away from character based combat in every single game, when there is no hard data to show for such a harsh and radical change in direction.  Whatever happens, I don't understand the reasoning for completely alienating a large paying segment of the player base, when they could easily offer games for both.  What I also find amusing is how most gamers, especially on this website are always so critical of the "bandwagon" concept, yet they are hypocritcally embracing this bandwagon with an amost evil relish.

No MMO developers are pushing innovative features in the genre to expand on the genre, especially a system such as combat that has long been almost identical across the genre.  You do realize a short while ago (less then a year) all the hype on MMOs was there were to many WoW clones.  What really boggles my mind is you expect companys to not hear these statements by consumers and decide to change the ONE fundemental thing that makes a WoW clone (THE COMBAT).  I would love to be a fly in the wall at some of these developer meetings when they hear you talk about how you want more of the same.  I really take issue with someone who doesnt see this as a catch 22 for gaming studios.

Just because I like a certain combat style, doesn't mean I want more of the same content, nor do I want that content designed in exactly the same manner.  I find it odd that it's perfectly acceptable that the MMORPG genre is completly and radically chaning combat mechanics, yet you never see that level of change in FPS or RTS, whether they be in MMO flavor or another.  I have no issues with them wanting to make MMOFPS or MMORTS, but I do take issue with them radically changing stat driven combat which has been an integral part of RPG's since they began, let alone since they were incorporated into MMOs.  I also belive that this will bite them in the ass down the road, when people realize they are no longer playing actual RPG's, but instead are playing Action Adventures and arcade style games.  There are a lot of people who like statistics, casual and hardcore.  They prefer tactical thinking and and a greater diversity in options, not just in combat, but in the overall game world.  One thing I have very much noticed is that all of this action combat is also going hand in hand with dumbed down gameplay, with fewer options, fewer classes, fewer gaming systems and just an overall lower quality gaming experience.

There has been action combat RPG's just as long if not longer then there has been tab target combat.  Elder Scrolls and Fallout and Diablo al lcome to mind.  The thing is practically ever MMO since EQ has copied EQ's model instead of looking at the AC, UO or M59 model.  That is what got the stagnation we have seen and that is why the last year and the immediate future has finally seen fit to look at EVRY systme and innovative when required.

besides theres nothing wrong with likeing traditional tab targettting combat, plenty of hyped games coming out in the near future which will follow that bland system. AcheAge and Repopulation to name 2.  SOme of us are actually looking forward to MMO's growing beyond the EQ/WoW model of making MMO's.  GW2 was the first step and it wont be the last but just be assured plenty will see fit to follow the old way.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

No there hasn't. There has been pushback by some extremely vocal folks on these forums, which is unsurprising given this user bases history.  The majority of folks are more than happy to move away from tab target dice role combat.

I'll take a boss battle in Tera over anything any other game has to offer any day of the week.  That's a game where positioning, reaction times, and free-flowing tactics are actually important... as opposed to following a script.

Originally posted by ragz45

Originally posted by umcorian

Wow. Based on this article, it looks like Cryptic is about to land a dragon-sized egg with this one. *Five* character classes? Really? You're going to have a game like D&D, known for it's infinite diversity of characters... and have less than half the classes of your average competitors? 

Cryptic, IMHO, has been somewhat second rate. Phenominal artistic direction in all their titles, but very very skimpy on substance. 

Yea 5 classes at release is a HUGE mistake here.  I was about to click purchase on the $200 founders pack, and then heard in the livestrem here that there was only 5 classes.  I immediatly exited out.

If they ever add more classes I may join in the game as it's FTP, but after release I won't have nearly the hype I had a few days ago to pony up $200.  So I can almost guarntee I won't be spending nearly that much money if I join at a later date.

Huge blunder on Cryptic's part here.

Do you even read the whole threads or do you jsut post non chalantly thinking the first thing that pops in your head.  I showed proof, datamined proof early in this thread there are 2 unnanounced classes being actively worked on and most likely will make release or shortly after (like within a month first patch kind of release) which brings the class count to 7, arguably jsut as many if not more then any other MMO to release with.  Plus the fact their primary motive for content is new classes.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by ragz45

Originally posted by umcorian

Wow. Based on this article, it looks like Cryptic is about to land a dragon-sized egg with this one. *Five* character classes? Really? You're going to have a game like D&D, known for it's infinite diversity of characters... and have less than half the classes of your average competitors? 

Cryptic, IMHO, has been somewhat second rate. Phenominal artistic direction in all their titles, but very very skimpy on substance. 

Yea 5 classes at release is a HUGE mistake here.  I was about to click purchase on the $200 founders pack, and then heard in the livestrem here that there was only 5 classes.  I immediatly exited out.

If they ever add more classes I may join in the game as it's FTP, but after release I won't have nearly the hype I had a few days ago to pony up $200.  So I can almost guarntee I won't be spending nearly that much money if I join at a later date.

Huge blunder on Cryptic's part here.

Do you even read the whole threads or do you jsut post non chalantly thinking the first thing that pops in your head.  I showed proof, datamined proof early in this thread there are 2 unnanounced classes being actively worked on and most likely will make release or shortly after (like within a month first patch kind of release) which brings the class count to 7, arguably jsut as many if not more then any other MMO to release with.  Plus the fact their primary motive for content is new classes.

I've been saying for a while that Cryptic is sitting on the Ranger class until a couple months post launch so they can monetize it  (it's Cryptic afterall)and use it as a grapple to deal with the inevitable "new game burnout" fallout.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

The fact is, we are basing almost all of our experience on action MMO's on mass produced, asian made MMO's that ALREADY suck, and have almost no depth.  Its like taking a turd, and then painting it blue, and just saying the color blue is a horrible color because the turd smells so bad.  The turd already smelled bad, the color had nothing to do with it.

My point is, saying action style MMO's are destructive is at this point really premature.  In and of itself, changes in combat mechanics are neither bad or good for an MMO, they are just what they are, a change.  You still need the the depth, quality, quanity, and on and on.  If TESO for example, can deliver on everything that they are known for in their single player games, like large , detailed worlds and lore, big story arcs, unique dungeons, etc and combine  those with the same quality mechanics you find in the better MMO's, like deep crafting, socialization, group content, and of course keep the same action combat from the series, then you have an action MMO that will rock.  The action combat aspect will NOT make the game a bad MMO, in fact, I think it has potential to be a top notch game.

However, if Bethesda does what Bioware did with SWTOR, and completely butchers TESO and basically shits on the lineage the game is grown from, then it will be easy to say "action mmo's suck, just look at TESO" When in truth, it was the foundation of the game that already doomed it.

For all the dumbasses who think D&D is well known for classes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_.26_Dragons

That's less then a 2 min search, note the number of classes on the first release of the PnP.

Edit: It takes time to get all those classes in-game and well built, while some (like perhaps the prestiege class or the ability to multiclass later) will possibly be monetized I doubt the iconic/basic classes will be and even if they are... for Christ sake if the astral diamond to zen transaction rates stabilize at a normal level (roughly that of STO) you could get 100-200 zen points per day playing casually. Most things in the cryptic stores barely register over 500 zen so 4-5 days of casual play for a new class, does that seem like play2grind to anyone? Cause if it does well then son/daughter you've had your folks spoil you with all the goodies without any of the work.

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by ragz45

Originally posted by umcorian

Wow. Based on this article, it looks like Cryptic is about to land a dragon-sized egg with this one. *Five* character classes? Really? You're going to have a game like D&D, known for it's infinite diversity of characters... and have less than half the classes of your average competitors? 

Cryptic, IMHO, has been somewhat second rate. Phenominal artistic direction in all their titles, but very very skimpy on substance. 

Yea 5 classes at release is a HUGE mistake here.  I was about to click purchase on the $200 founders pack, and then heard in the livestrem here that there was only 5 classes.  I immediatly exited out.

If they ever add more classes I may join in the game as it's FTP, but after release I won't have nearly the hype I had a few days ago to pony up $200.  So I can almost guarntee I won't be spending nearly that much money if I join at a later date.

Huge blunder on Cryptic's part here.

Do you even read the whole threads or do you jsut post non chalantly thinking the first thing that pops in your head.  I showed proof, datamined proof early in this thread there are 2 unnanounced classes being actively worked on and most likely will make release or shortly after (like within a month first patch kind of release) which brings the class count to 7, arguably jsut as many if not more then any other MMO to release with.  Plus the fact their primary motive for content is new classes.

I've been saying for a while that Cryptic is sitting on the Ranger class until a couple months post launch so they can monetize it  (it's Cryptic afterall)and use it as a grapple to deal with the inevitable "new game burnout" fallout.

Sounds like a smart business decision to me.

Originally posted by Dihoru

For all the dumbasses who think D&D is well known for classes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_.26_Dragons

That's less then a 2 min search, note the number of classes on the first release of the PnP.

 

Edit: It takes time to get all those classes in-game and well built, while some (like perhaps the prestiege class or the ability to multiclass later) will possibly be monetized I doubt the iconic/basic classes will be and even if they are... for Christ sake if the astral diamond to zen transaction rates stabilize at a normal level (roughly that of STO) you could get 100-200 zen points per day playing casually. Most things in the cryptic stores barely register over 500 zen so 4-5 days of casual play for a new class, does that seem like play2grind to anyone? Cause if it does well then son/daughter you've had your folks spoil you with all the goodies without any of the work.

ya part of the problem here is some of the commenters seem to have missed the 4.0 part of the description of this game. the huge variety of 'classes' was typically from two things, both found in 3.5. the first was most obviously the prestige classes, often attainable as early as 6th level. the second is not really classes as the customization of your character via class + skills + feats + stat assignment.

none of that is really available in 4.0 and so it should not be expected in Cryptic's 4.0 version of NWN.

the only disappointment i personally feel is not the quality of this mmo, its that the chances of a Bioware single player or coop NWN3 is probably gone forever now.

Originally posted by chelan

Originally posted by Dihoru

For all the dumbasses who think D&D is well known for classes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_.26_Dragons

That's less then a 2 min search, note the number of classes on the first release of the PnP.

 

Edit: It takes time to get all those classes in-game and well built, while some (like perhaps the prestiege class or the ability to multiclass later) will possibly be monetized I doubt the iconic/basic classes will be and even if they are... for Christ sake if the astral diamond to zen transaction rates stabilize at a normal level (roughly that of STO) you could get 100-200 zen points per day playing casually. Most things in the cryptic stores barely register over 500 zen so 4-5 days of casual play for a new class, does that seem like play2grind to anyone? Cause if it does well then son/daughter you've had your folks spoil you with all the goodies without any of the work.

ya part of the problem here is some of the commenters seem to have missed the 4.0 part of the description of this game. the huge variety of 'classes' was typically from two things, both found in 3.5. the first was most obviously the prestige classes, often attainable as early as 6th level. the second is not really classes as the customization of your character via class + skills + feats + stat assignment.

none of that is really available in 4.0 and so it should not be expected in Cryptic's 4.0 version of NWN.

the only disappointment i personally feel is not the quality of this mmo, its that the chances of a Bioware single player or coop NWN3 is probably gone forever now.

its been what 9 years since NWN 2 was released?  I'm sure they will release another one eventually, big differences between the 2 genres.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by ragz45

Originally posted by umcorian

Wow. Based on this article, it looks like Cryptic is about to land a dragon-sized egg with this one. *Five* character classes? Really? You're going to have a game like D&D, known for it's infinite diversity of characters... and have less than half the classes of your average competitors? 

Cryptic, IMHO, has been somewhat second rate. Phenominal artistic direction in all their titles, but very very skimpy on substance. 

Yea 5 classes at release is a HUGE mistake here.  I was about to click purchase on the $200 founders pack, and then heard in the livestrem here that there was only 5 classes.  I immediatly exited out.

If they ever add more classes I may join in the game as it's FTP, but after release I won't have nearly the hype I had a few days ago to pony up $200.  So I can almost guarntee I won't be spending nearly that much money if I join at a later date.

Huge blunder on Cryptic's part here.

Do you even read the whole threads or do you jsut post non chalantly thinking the first thing that pops in your head.  I showed proof, datamined proof early in this thread there are 2 unnanounced classes being actively worked on and most likely will make release or shortly after (like within a month first patch kind of release) which brings the class count to 7, arguably jsut as many if not more then any other MMO to release with.  Plus the fact their primary motive for content is new classes.

I've been saying for a while that Cryptic is sitting on the Ranger class until a couple months post launch so they can monetize it  (it's Cryptic afterall)and use it as a grapple to deal with the inevitable "new game burnout" fallout.

Sounds like a smart business decision to me.

I agree, I'm sure they'll make a grip of money off it.

Originally posted by Dihoru

for Christ sake if the astral diamond to zen transaction rates stabilize at a normal level (roughly that of STO) you could get 100-200 zen points per day playing casually.

That's not entirely correct (though we can't know how will the diamond exchange and daily limits work in Neverwinter).

In STO atm the exchange rate is 92 and the dilly limit per day is 8000, so it doesn't matter how good you are in farming, you can't get more than ~87 Zen per day. And that's not even the norm, the usual rate was mostly in the 150-220 range (~40ish Zen per day), the present rate is only because Cryptic made huge changes in Season7. The farming time you need to acquire dilly is increased with S7, and alongside with that the importance of dilly increased as well - that's why the price rate drop.

Edit: for the casually part, those ~87 Zen is if you farm the max. out.. Casually you can get the half of it at most (Lore, Asteroid mining, and the Academy event, with some DOff criticals on the side are the casual ways in STO)

Originally posted by Po_gg

Originally posted by Dihoru

for Christ sake if the astral diamond to zen transaction rates stabilize at a normal level (roughly that of STO) you could get 100-200 zen points per day playing casually.

That's not entirely correct (though we can't know how will the diamond exchange and daily limits work in Neverwinter).

In STO atm the exchange rate is 92 and the dilly limit per day is 8000, so it doesn't matter how good you are in farming, you can't get more than ~87 Zen per day. And that's not even the norm, the usual rate was mostly in the 150-220 range (~40ish Zen per day), the present rate is only because Cryptic made huge changes in Season7. The farming time you need to acquire dilly is increased with S7, and alongside with that the importance of dilly increased as well - that's why the price rate drop.

Edit: for the casually part, those ~87 Zen is if you farm the max. out.. Casually you can get the half of it at most (Lore, Asteroid mining, and the Academy event, with some DOff criticals on the side are the casual ways in STO)

Ok my math was slightly off (forgot about that limit, though hitting it isn't much of an issue with a few of the dailies, DOffs, lore the foundry review assignment, if that's still around, and STFs), still you're earning 86 zen per day playing a game you like casually (IE no PVP or guild/fleet stuff), now assuming the Astral Diamonds are balanced off from the get go sort of like dilithium currently is that means at worse 50 zen per day, we could assume a new class = a new ship in STO (though I am pushing it a bit) so you could get new classes for free depending on price from 10 to 50 days of play time. Now if you're having fun playing then this isn't an issue, if you're not... why are we even discussing it?

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Secondly D&D has dosens of classes and prestige classes.

Launching a dnd game with 5 classes it's like playing wow with one class only.

3rd the character models do not look very promising and the lack of world freedom/seamless world is enough to make not wanna play this game.

Why not wait and play eso.It may be crap as well but at least we have the choice to select the best crap between the 2.

Well this article was pretty good compared to other Neverwinter articles I have read here. Thats said the game is based on 4E so no prestige lines, it has paragon paths you can choose at lvl 11.

One thing I wish people would stop saying is that the game launches with 5 classes , it doesn't. It launches with 4 classes but with two builds of one class.  Read it how you will but great weapon fighter and guardian fighter are 2 builds of the same class.

Neverwinter offers builds and labels them classes.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Now if you're having fun playing then this isn't an issue, if you're not... why are we even discussing it?

Agreed :) just fixed the math. I don't have any problem with the method and I'm really looking forward to play Neverwinter as well.

With timed-currencies, in the end all that matters, is how each player individually values his/her time. (the same goes with Turbine points, EVE's plex, etc.) If it's ok to the player, s/he can farm out the needed amount. Or just buying it. The good thing is that nothing is set in stone, there are options. Options are the best. Imo :)

Personal I think the game while be closed within a year. they completely neglected anything that D&D and even worse, they restricted their own engine capabilities to make a we had that a 100 times before game. the foundry cant save this game, while its good to create extra content its not what drives players to play the game , if you're base game "sucks" then any mechanic that is build on or round it will not be able to reach it potential.

The lack of "freeform" class development , the lack of nearly ALL D&D classes , the lack of fluit combat, the lack content (things to do rather the doing the same thing alot)  are from what I seen a real danger for this game.

but eh, thats just me, will see in a year if north korea or Iran hasnt Nuked the Server by then ;)

Originally posted by Eladi

Personal I think the game while be closed within a year. they completely neglected anything that D&D and even worse, they restricted their own engine capabilities to make a we had that a 100 times before game. the foundry cant save this game, while its good to create extra content its not what drives players to play the game , if you're base game "sucks" then any mechanic that is build on or round it will not be able to reach it potential.

The lack of "freeform" class development , the lack of nearly ALL D&D classes , the lack of fluit combat, the lack content (things to do rather the doing the same thing alot)  are from what I seen a real danger for this game.

but eh, thats just me, will see in a year if north korea or Iran hasnt Nuked the Server by then ;)

All I got from that post because he didn't even bothered to read what others have said on the previous page.

Originally posted by Eladi

Personal I think the game while be closed within a year. 

I'll bet you any amount of money you want that your wrong.