Originally posted by Tanemund

From what I've read in this article and the comments it seems Cryptic is relying on the Foundary to compensate for a single linear leveling quest line.  That smells like a recipe for disaster to me. 

City of Heroes had a player made content system.  That degenerated into a powerl leveling tool.  Players simply designed instances that were small maps with lots of mobs to "Kill, Crush, Destroy".  Paragon Studios took measure to prevent that and use of the player made content stopped.  Even the story arcs that people had taken the time to plot and plan out and carefully design weren't played.  People weren't interested in the "story".  They just wanted to level up.

I know Dungeons and Dragons based games have a rich tradition of player involvement and creativity, however that tends to fall by the wayside when people get focused on the "Endgame".  The journey is no longer the "thing" in MMOs.  Now there has to be a goal otherwise why bother playing.  I'm afraid that user generated content will simply be used as an express lane to whatever the "endgame" might be.

Also the last game Cryptic put out was severly lacking in content as well.  That was STO and the aftershocks of that disaster must still shudder around Cryptic.  I know it's making me take a wait and see on a title I would ordinarily be first in line for.

 

This very well may be a case for many players but 2 things stand out to offset this:

1. The Devs themselves likened the comparisons of NWO's Foundry to STO's Foundry as being the difference between Windows 3.5 and Windows 7.

2. There is a rather large community of Modders in games like STO, NWN1&2 who still continue to churn out amazing content.  Sure not every Foundry mission will be amazing but there will be many editors who want to deliver their masterpieces.

Originally posted by knightaudit

maybe I am missing something here .... but when I played D&d back in the day ... (WAY BACK) first and second edition rules. I do not recall there being a level cap. They did say that you would "Cap" at 20 but you could go beyond.

but that is not my point

In D&D you had fun in whatever adventure you were in .... "Keep on the boarderlands" was a level 1-3, "Sinister secret of Saltmarsh" was a 4-6 and the nightmare of "Tomb of Horrors" was a 17+ dungeon. There was no end game, you simply enjoyed the world and the adventure that was there .. and I hope that Neverwinter brings that to the table. I hope that the foundry is able to bring the adventure to the table and avoid the trap that is the "Endgame"

I did like the article and look forward to what the game will bring.

 

This in essence is what the Foundry will deliver.  A source of neverending content for players to enjoy.  Sounds very D&D like to me.

Originally posted by azzamasin

 

This very well may be a case for many players but 2 things stand out to offset this:

1. The Devs themselves likened the comparisons of NWO's Foundry to STO's Foundry as being the difference between Windows 3.5 and Windows 7.

2. There is a rather large community of Modders in games like STO, NWN1&2 who still continue to churn out amazing content.  Sure not every Foundry mission will be amazing but there will be many editors who want to deliver their masterpieces.

said it a couple times in other threads but in games like NWN, oblivion and skyrim i very much enjoyed player created content and in many cases even more so than dev created stuff.. with good tools and a good overall implementation this could be very huge indeed..

After watching a few of the major streams for the beta I am closer to a discision about the game personally. It definately in present state DOES NOT deserve to have D&D anywhere in the title or reference to the game. There is more lacking of D&D in this game than anything present, which is more the name than anything else.

I am ok with the combat. There are many times playing previous D&D titles like NWN (1,2) that I had thought it would feel better with a little faster combat. What falls short for me is the lack of depth to character build, the absence of alignment and influence, and the absence of the core to most D&D games which is multi-classing. This is more of a Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance remake into an MMO version than a true D&D experiene.

Originally posted by Xepo

After watching a few of the major streams for the beta I am closer to a discision about the game personally. It definately in present state DOES NOT deserve to have D&D anywhere in the title or reference to the game. There is more lacking of D&D in this game than anything present, which is more the name than anything else.

 

I am ok with the combat. There are many times playing previous D&D titles like NWN (1,2) that I had thought it would feel better with a little faster combat. What falls short for me is the lack of depth to character build, the absence of alignment and influence, and the absence of the core to most D&D games which is multi-classing. This is more of a Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance remake into an MMO version than a true D&D experiene.

when was this game every claimed ot be that? find it odd people get pissed about a game because they are mad it doesn't fit what they feel a game with a famous IP should or shouldn't have.. for me I love D&D but not hung up on the fact it's more geared for a MMO setting and if it's fun ill play.. who cares in it's not a true D&D pnp experience if its a fun well put together game

There will be more classes in the game that's certain and as for the alignment system.. could be something slated for a future expansion/large content patch, it certainly wasn't mentioned in any livestream I saw so we don't know when or if it is gonna be put in.

As far as I am concerned D&D in it's PnP form can never be a MMO, what the devs have done is take the lore and the feel from the 4th ed of the rulebook and made it into an MMO as best they could. This initial retail release could form a solid core for future expansion (beyond Neverwinter, with more classes, multiclassing, prestiege classes, alignment system, etc). People need to be patient and see how things go, tell the devs you want these things but don't go all fire and brimstone if they can't get it done now, just make sure they put it on the to do list is all.

Originally posted by Theely
They're only releasing 5 classes because the rest are going to cost 20$ to unlock.

id pay $10 to unlock a new class.. why not? game cost me nothing to download and play

Originally posted by Arcona
You forgot the best part, you can play for free

Depends on what you mean by play, for me play <> work.  From what I understand the whole astral diamonds currency turns the game into Free2Grind, Pay4Fun. 

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

I'll put my two cents in here.. TERA type combat is fantastic.. My experience of this last weekend was a wonderful one.  I know that here is some push back but I don't agree with it.  Though I can understand the fear connected with the hardest push back.  You're right that content is the most important element.. and I also beleave that there is a place for the traditional type of gameplay but it's a shrinking market... People want something different and while not the whole answer action oriented combat is part of it.  I think you're taking a bit of an extreme position in saying that it'll devolve into a arcade game.  It's not so black and white.  While I'll argue any day that the traditional combat model still works I'll also argue that this is a step forward.  You can disagree but it comes down to people don't like change but often change is a good thing.  That doesn't mean that you're wrong but everyone has a right their own taste but if I were making an mmo right now.. I'd steer very clear from being too traditional.

Originally posted by Nhoj1983

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

I'll put my two cents in here.. TERA type combat is fantastic.. My experience of this last weekend was a wonderful one.  I know that here is some push back but I don't agree with it.  Though I can understand the fear connected with the hardest push back.  You're right that content is the most important element.. and I also beleave that there is a place for the traditional type of gameplay but it's a shrinking market... People want something different and while not the whole answer action oriented combat is part of it.  I think you're taking a bit of an extreme position in saying that it'll devolve into a arcade game.  It's not so black and white.  While I'll argue any day that the traditional combat model still works I'll also argue that this is a step forward.  You can disagree but it comes down to people don't like change but often change is a good thing.  That doesn't mean that you're wrong but everyone has a right their own taste but if I were making an mmo right now.. I'd steer very clear from being too traditional.

 

There is no current data either way, to prove that character driven combat is a shrinking market.  The genre is experimenting and merely pushing action combat in order to appeal to console gamers and people who play single player first person shooters.  It may pay off in the end or it could truly backfire on them.  We'll find out in the next couple of years.  They may fail to draw in those non-MMO gamers or they may find that backlash from the original crowd to be more expensive than they realized.  I just find it odd that they are so completely moving away from character based combat in every single game, when there is no hard data to explain such a complete and radical change in direction.  Whatever happens, I don't understand the reasoning for completely alienating a large paying segment of the player base, when they could easily offer games for both.  What I also find amusing is how most gamers, especially on this website are always so critical of the "bandwagon" concept, yet they are hypocritcally embracing this bandwagon with an amost evil relish.

Originally posted by Xepo

After watching a few of the major streams for the beta I am closer to a discision about the game personally. It definately in present state DOES NOT deserve to have D&D anywhere in the title or reference to the game. There is more lacking of D&D in this game than anything present, which is more the name than anything else.

 

I am ok with the combat. There are many times playing previous D&D titles like NWN (1,2) that I had thought it would feel better with a little faster combat. What falls short for me is the lack of depth to character build, the absence of alignment and influence, and the absence of the core to most D&D games which is multi-classing. This is more of a Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance remake into an MMO version than a true D&D experiene.

And I'll use this analogy to describe every time someone brings this up.

Not every thing needs to be a direct 1 to 1 port of the original product to be considered a part of or a successor of an IP.  Games like WoW were nothing like the Warcraft RTS game, neither is Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance liek the P&P Table top D&D game.  There must exist some sense of "artistic license" or no one would partake in such activities.  This happens al lthe time in places like Fan Fiction or Movies based on Books. or really any genre of the entertainment industry.  This is especially more well documented considering the license of the IP holder gives permission for remakes.

You may not agree with it nor like it but it happens all the time and if someone is willing to sacrifce to maek a product based on an IP then they earn the right to be creative within the scope of the IP itself.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Nhoj1983

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

I'll put my two cents in here.. TERA type combat is fantastic.. My experience of this last weekend was a wonderful one.  I know that here is some push back but I don't agree with it.  Though I can understand the fear connected with the hardest push back.  You're right that content is the most important element.. and I also beleave that there is a place for the traditional type of gameplay but it's a shrinking market... People want something different and while not the whole answer action oriented combat is part of it.  I think you're taking a bit of an extreme position in saying that it'll devolve into a arcade game.  It's not so black and white.  While I'll argue any day that the traditional combat model still works I'll also argue that this is a step forward.  You can disagree but it comes down to people don't like change but often change is a good thing.  That doesn't mean that you're wrong but everyone has a right their own taste but if I were making an mmo right now.. I'd steer very clear from being too traditional.

 

There is no current data either way, to prove that character driven combat is a shrinking market.  The genre is experimenting and merely pushing action combat in order to appeal to console gamers and people who play single player first person shooters.  It may pay off in the end or it could truly backfire on them.  We'll find out in the next couple of years.  They may fail to draw in those non-MMO gamers or they may find that backlash from the original crowd to be more expensive than they realized.  I just find it odd that they are so completely moving away from character based combat in every single game, when there is no hard data to show for such a harsh and radical change in direction.  Whatever happens, I don't understand the reasoning for completely alienating a large paying segment of the player base, when they could easily offer games for both.  What I also find amusing is how most gamers, especially on this website are always so critical of the "bandwagon" concept, yet they are hypocritcally embracing this bandwagon with an amost evil relish.

No MMO developers are pushing innovative features in the genre to expand on the genre, especially a system such as combat that has long been almost identical across the genre.  You do realize a short while ago (less then a year) all the hype on MMOs was there were to many WoW clones.  What really boggles my mind is you expect companys to not hear these statements by consumers and decide to change the ONE fundemental thing that makes a WoW clone (THE COMBAT).  I would love to be a fly in the wall at some of these developer meetings when they hear you talk about how you want more of the same.  I really take issue with someone who doesnt see this as a catch 22 for gaming studios.

That sense of deja vu I will appreciate because there will be 0% learning curve and 100% enjoyment. :)

the constriction is due to how they focused the classes it's very AD&D 4 ruleset honestly.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Nhoj1983

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

I'll put my two cents in here.. TERA type combat is fantastic.. My experience of this last weekend was a wonderful one.  I know that here is some push back but I don't agree with it.  Though I can understand the fear connected with the hardest push back.  You're right that content is the most important element.. and I also beleave that there is a place for the traditional type of gameplay but it's a shrinking market... People want something different and while not the whole answer action oriented combat is part of it.  I think you're taking a bit of an extreme position in saying that it'll devolve into a arcade game.  It's not so black and white.  While I'll argue any day that the traditional combat model still works I'll also argue that this is a step forward.  You can disagree but it comes down to people don't like change but often change is a good thing.  That doesn't mean that you're wrong but everyone has a right their own taste but if I were making an mmo right now.. I'd steer very clear from being too traditional.

 

There is no current data either way, to prove that character driven combat is a shrinking market.  The genre is experimenting and merely pushing action combat in order to appeal to console gamers and people who play single player first person shooters.  It may pay off in the end or it could truly backfire on them.  We'll find out in the next couple of years.  They may fail to draw in those non-MMO gamers or they may find that backlash from the original crowd to be more expensive than they realized.  I just find it odd that they are so completely moving away from character based combat in every single game, when there is no hard data to show for such a harsh and radical change in direction.  Whatever happens, I don't understand the reasoning for completely alienating a large paying segment of the player base, when they could easily offer games for both.  What I also find amusing is how most gamers, especially on this website are always so critical of the "bandwagon" concept, yet they are hypocritcally embracing this bandwagon with an amost evil relish.

No MMO developers are pushing innovative features in the genre to expand on the genre, especially a system such as combat that has long been almost identical across the genre.  You do realize a short while ago (less then a year) all the hype on MMOs was there were to many WoW clones.  What really boggles my mind is you expect companys to not hear these statements by consumers and decide to change the ONE fundemental thing that makes a WoW clone (THE COMBAT).  I would love to be a fly in the wall at some of these developer meetings when they hear you talk about how you want more of the same.  I really take issue with someone who doesnt see this as a catch 22 for gaming studios.

Just because I like a certain combat style, doesn't mean I want more of the same content, nor do I want that content designed in exactly the same manner.  I find it odd that it's perfectly acceptable that the MMORPG genre is completly and radically chaning combat mechanics, yet you never see that level of change in FPS or RTS, whether they be in MMO flavor or another.  I have no issues with them wanting to make MMOFPS or MMORTS, but I do take issue with them radically changing stat driven combat which has been an integral part of RPG's since they began, let alone since they were incorporated into MMOs.  I also belive that this will bite them in the ass down the road, when people realize they are no longer playing actual RPG's, but instead are playing Action Adventures and arcade style games.  There are a lot of people who like statistics, casual and hardcore.  They prefer tactical thinking and and a greater diversity in options, not just in combat, but in the overall game world.  One thing I have very much noticed is that all of this action combat is also going hand in hand with dumbed down gameplay, with fewer options, fewer classes, fewer gaming systems and just an overall lower quality gaming experience.

Wow. Based on this article, it looks like Cryptic is about to land a dragon-sized egg with this one. *Five* character classes? Really? You're going to have a game like D&D, known for it's infinite diversity of characters... and have less than half the classes of your average competitors? 

Cryptic, IMHO, has been somewhat second rate. Phenominal artistic direction in all their titles, but very very skimpy on substance.