Originally posted by raynforce

I do not have a problem with free to play per say, but rather, some common elements in free to play games. Here is a list of a few common problems I have with free to play models.

 

1) Gambling. Many free to play games force you to gamble if you want your item. Especially the ever so popular key to box of mysteries. I really feel terrible knowing that the only way to obtain something is to spend money and possibly get nothing or next to nothing in return.

 "if you want your item". There is nothing being forced here. Many free players chose NOT to want the item. If you have weak will power, then it may be a problem. But it is never a problem for me.

2) Exponential advantage. Many free to play games say they are not pay to win because of the fact that you can get everything in game. What they don't tell you is that to get the BEST of anything your options are to farm said items for more hours than any working person (and in some cases simply impossible even for those who play 16 hours a day) can possibly ever acheive OR spend usually up to hundreds of dollars to just buy the items off the item store. This is especially common with crafting success items or items that prevent enhanced items from breaking.  This problem is compouded by items that can be enhanced to effectiveness levels impossible to acheive ingame (due to time constraints) for users with bottomless wallets that can just keep buying crafting success / anti break items.

This is no difference than any non-F2P MMO. If you want the best items, you need to grind/raid 100x more than the casual. It is either time or money. And as many would say, time *is* money.

 

3) The ability to trade / sell auction house items. This basicly means that you can have everything you want in game immediatly if you have the money to spend. Want 1 000 000 gold on a game where the average player has 100g? Just buy thousands of dollars worth of cash shop items and put them on the auction house (even in a game that has only vanity items). This inflates the economy to the point were even players willing to spend a little money can't buy anything for a decent price because of the few very rich (real world money) players.

 Why is this a problem? Supply & demand. Of course the rare good items are expensive. I don't think you want a game that if you drop $5 or 100g, you get all the best items. And it is a fair world. If someone pays $1000 for a game, he has to make it in the first place. If you are unwilling to do so, or can't make the money, then obviously he should have the item.

 

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Originally posted by snapfusion
... So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible...

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This

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Originally posted by Robokapp
...personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?

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Originally posted by Gruug
...What is totally illogical is to buy into the concept of "f2p" in the first place. SOMEONE has to pay in order to let one person to even attempt to play one of those "f2p" games for free. The fact that anyone is paying means that the game IS NOT free. The whole use of the term "free" in f2p is invalid.

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Originally posted by Skuall
IMO:

f2p = how to nickel and dime your playerbase in order to gain profit .

p2p = how to create a fun game and keep content going on in order to keep subs (to gain profit)

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Yes

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Originally posted by LauraFrost
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" ... you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.

What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.

But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.

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Deciding where to spend my $ on a game is not fun for me. I'd like a set fee per month. Let the game be the part that needs figuring out, not the cash shop.

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

...because I'm not seeing it.  Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.

Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.

Whats your view?

Go!

While it is not inherently a bad pracitce, it is often implemented poorly, especially in MMOS. I see free to play in a negative light for several reasons.

1. The transition from a subscription or otherwise front-side price model to free-to-play indicates the developer didn't understand the market, their product, or what their customers wanted. Take for instance, SWTOR. It's a game that should never, ever had been an MMO. It suffers from an identity crisis - trying to inherit the beautiful gameplay of its predecessors while attempting to grab the WoW clients. These are two starkly different game types, which require two very different price models. Next, consider Lord of the Rings Online. It was previously a subscription game that was profitable and enjoyable. New content came out fairly regularly and it boasted one the most mature and welcoming communties in the MMO world. Because of the success of DDO's transition, it was transitioned as well. However, it didn't have the episodic content that DDO had. Where I'm particularly bitter is having to buy old content after the transition. I bought the game (the content) and paid a subscription fee (for access). Of course, this subject is very contentious but that doesn't change the fact that I was once a paying customer. I, among many others, felt burned by this and other changes. Particularly, having seen the turbine points advertised everywhere completely ruined the feel of the game for me.

2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars. 

There are some games that have handled F2P well, like League of Legends. However, I think most F2P MMOs are not worth playing. 

Originally posted by Destai

2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars. 

 

 

Why is that an issue? All online games have haves & have-nots. You don't belong to the ultra hard core raid guild, you don't get the best gear. You don't play 24/7, you have less gold than the guy who does.

Originally posted by Bigmac1910
It just ruins the immersion for me, that is all. I'm constantly being told to buy something from the real money store from level 1, I'm sorry how the heck am I supposed to know whether to invest or not at level one. I'd rather pay a subscription fee, and I don't have to think about real money. That is why I'm in this world to begin with, to forget real life for a limited amount of time.

Which game you are talking about?

I have played many F2P MMOs (STO, DCUO, DDO ....) and none does that. In particularly, there is no frequent pop-up ads which "constantly being told" implies.

Originally posted by Destai

2. Free to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit LoTRO. When raid buffs and stat tomes came out, it created a rift between the players. If you wanted to take on the harder and more rewarding dungeons or raids, you needed buffs. It's acceptable to have buffs that increase leveling of something, cosmetics, or seasonal items. It is completely unacceptable to sell anything that puts other players ahead or renders players unable to play paid content. Furthermore, no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require money unlock. Once again, LoTRO requires free players to pay for horse travel. SWTOR charged for skill bars. 

There are some games that have handled F2P well, like League of Legends. However, I think most F2P MMOs are not worth playing. 

 

 Flip side.

Pay to play can create a situation of haves and have nots. I will revisit WoW. When dungeons started dropping tiered gear, it created a rift between the players. if you wanted to take on the hard and more rewarding dungeons or raides, you needed to be geared with previous raids gear drops. It is completely unacceptable to require a person to have to raid for countless hours to gain gear to be able to raid again for countless hours. no fundamental game system should ever, ever, ever require you to play a lot of time just so you can play a lot of time for a little content. Once again, WoW requires paying players to play on end, just to be able to continue playing.

There are some games that have handled P2P well, like Asherons Call. However, I think most P2P MMOs are not worth paying for.

Once again, I have yet to see any real argument against F2P that isnt either a double standard or complete BS based on mis-information or not knowing a thing about it at all.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
The only game I'm being constantly reminded about that is swtor, quest rewards (almost all of them) say with f2p you get this, with sub you get this...

That sounds horrible. No wonder i am not playing this game.

I saw the future of free to play social media integration today - must share.

Each cash shop item comes complete with a video of the developer's children saying please purchase this so my daddy can send me to college/ buy me name brand tennis shoes so other kids don't laugh at my rikees etc. For added sentimental oomph, each developer can have a ramen chart on their personal page identifying how many times they ate ramen that week. When their meter reaches full you are sent a status update from them saying high blood pressure and their sad face. Their kids will text you from school and say mommy said that I can't have lunch money until you buy something, will you mister?

Heartstrings, you have them somewhere in there and at some point they will be marketed.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by XAPGames

Free 2 Play blurs the distinction between achievers and purchasers.

 

I have a cool mount in Runes of Magic.

Did I do some long quest chain?  No.

Did my character slay some mega-boss?  No.

Did I grind reputation for hours? No.

How did I get it?  Credit card.

See the blur?  Am I an achiever for having my mount?

If you're going to try to point out a flaw of F2P, it's best to use any example other than mounts. :)

First off, I don't consider it a flaw.  It is a characteristic.  Nobody cares if I like something or not, especially not publishers working to make a buck.  Certainly my opinion isn't enough to make a design feature a "flaw", even if it's not something I think fits with how I understand MMORPG gameplay (effort yields achievement which in turn yields convenience).

On a related note, I feel the same way about purchased mounts in WoW even though it's not F2P.  They used to be achievement (epic Warlock mount was a huge fight, so was the epic for Paladins), but Blizzard opted for a new revenue stream blurring the achievers from the purchasers.

Where is the effort in buying gear?  How can having purchased gear be considered an achievement without effort?

Originally posted by XAPGames

On a related note, I feel the same way about purchased mounts in WoW even though it's not F2P.  They used to be achievement (epic Warlock mount was a huge fight, so was the epic for Paladins), but Blizzard opted for a new revenue stream blurring the achievers from the purchasers.

 

Where is the effort in buying gear?  How can having purchased gear be considered an achievement without effort?

 

You have to make the money in the first place. That costs effort (except for kids who get money from parents, of course).

Secondly, in WOW, you can tell which mount is bought, and which one is an in-game achievement. I doubt people got confused over it.

Lastly, we are talking about video games here. There is no real achievement. Killing some monster 1000 times is not a true achievement. It is at best an illusion. No better than buying some good feelings. You did not solve a real problem. You kill a monster because the devs set it up to let you do so.

Originally posted by Robokapp

unlimited storage...

 

if I say "eve" ill you say "no storage can ever be infinite due to the definition of infinity" ?

 

has anyone ever filled one single Station Container in eve? I mean you can have as many of them as you want but has anyone ever filled ONE of them ?

 

 

 Good point.  I don't even want to think about the thousands upon thousands of modules, weapons, armor and endless other things that I picked up over almost six years of playing.  Eve has the largest storage of any game, I've ever played.

I wish some other games (no matter what the business model) had something like that.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by 123443211234
Because f2p games tend to revolve around ways the devs can extract more money out of you rather than just focusing on creating a good game.

Yeah, there never been P2P MMOs like that... 

But really, the bad thing with F2P games is that they tend to make devs that are already greedy greedier. Some of them charge a huge amount far beyond what a monthly fee would cost for people to play the game after the initial noob game. If you want a good example, look on EQ2.

F2P is in itself not bad as long as the developer sell enough stuff to earn money but not so much that you always have to buy to be able to play the game as intended.

Freemium on the other hand is usually a rip off. To get anywhere you more or less both have to pay a monthly fee and buy stuff. Not always but usually (DDO seems pretty fair to me for example).

I can agree with that.  I cant fault a developer for being greedy as long as I have the option to not play the game.  What I find interesting is most of the games I felt had poor cash shop implementations I tended not to like playing anyway.  Perhaps coincidence that they go hand in hand but it works for me.

I just started DDO.  Still getting used to not getting loot from mobs.  But I cant lie I love the stats and hardcore AD&D 3.5 rule set.  I say I won't play this anymore then I log in again.  Level 2 and climbing :-)

I look at freemium as a try-n-buy.  If the freemium has me playing for an extended period of time I justify the cost of the sub.  I dont see that as a rip-off.  But I've been known to sub for one month then stop.  It all comes down to what is keeping my interest at the time.

Originally posted by Arclan

 

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Originally posted by snapfusion
... So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible...

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This

 

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Robokapp
...personally I have a very difficult time with the simple concept of ME giving things to MY CHARACTER. Shouldn't we be one and the same from a RP standpoint ? It's not my main issue, it's a very minor one in fact but ... can you relate to your character when at its core the game presents "it" as different than 'you' ?

 

 

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/Signed

 

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Gruug
...What is totally illogical is to buy into the concept of "f2p" in the first place. SOMEONE has to pay in order to let one person to even attempt to play one of those "f2p" games for free. The fact that anyone is paying means that the game IS NOT free. The whole use of the term "free" in f2p is invalid.

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QFT

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Skuall
IMO:

 

f2p = how to nickel and dime your playerbase in order to gain profit .

p2p = how to create a fun game and keep content going on in order to keep subs (to gain profit)

 

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Yes

 

 

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Originally posted by LauraFrost
Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" ... you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.

 

What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.

 

But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.

 

 

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Well said

 

 

Deciding where to spend my $ on a game is not fun for me. I'd like a set fee per month. Let the game be the part that needs figuring out, not the cash shop.

So F2P as a model is sound, you just PREFER the option of someone telling you what you can do (even if you wont do some of it).  I can see that.

I'm the opposite. I dont need someone to tell me what I get.  I can decide for myself and much PREFER to select the options I would like to use.

To each his own... 

Originally posted by LauraFrost

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

...because I'm not seeing it.  Open to all arguments but please try to stay logical and back them up.

Looking to see if this is more a personal choice (opinion) or actually a bonafide benefit (or constraint) to the player.

Whats your view?

Go!

 

Some people want to play a game where they feel they belong in a world. When you include a "Cash-Shop" (whether the cash-shop is in the game client which is bad, or out of the game client doesn't matter) you just destroy the very foundation of that idea. I don't want to see Joe_Bob_Mc_Customer with his sparkly blue-sword he just purchased from the "store" out of thin air.

What happened to Lore? If I see someone weilding a weapon or wearing an armor that armor must make sense. If he's weilding the Sword of Ssra for instance I must know that he was there when Ssra died and looted his sword.

 

But after the gamification and simplification and pussification of gaming since .... 8 years ago. A new generation of players would never understand such argument but in the end I go back to this simple philosophy. Some people want this game and others wants a DIFFERENT game... there's nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But the problem is I don't get to play the game I want, it's always the OTHER game. Hence, why we come here to complain.

 

 

I agree with your points, but dont see how they are related to F2P (specifically).  For example most of the MMOs released today (across all models) exihibit the lack of lore and world-belonging feeling.  I would love to see a game bring this back.

but in terms of F2P specifically how do you know if someone else bought that blue sword in the cash shop?   Second why does it bother you so much what another random player does?  Its like we are exacting what we want on a game system that is meant to be shared across multiple views.  I cant see how you could 'stop' that thus would refrain from seeing it as an issue.

For example, I would more be like "Wow, thats a wierd sword" ... shrug it off and go about my worldy business I planned for myself that day.

YMMV of course ;-)

There is nothing wrong with F2P "Now"...

Other people that has been on this site as long as i have tho know "Back then" F2P=asian trash mmo

didnt read the whole thing i now the argument by now so im saying this for myself not anyone else

I WANT QUALITY IN THE CORE GAME ITSELF NOT PRETTY SHINIES IN A MARKET

if i got to give up a extra beer a month fine, its better then getting a pile of crap to pay tons for instead of

Solid Servers

Good GMs

regular bug fixes

regular updates

actual well made games

and several other things

basicly you can say F2P is the future all you want i say they dont make them like they used to

Come on OP you must know players have a lot of negative views about F2P and quite rightly, so this thread is a bit of a troll.

The hybrid finance systems now in place have blured the issue. Many times now when people talk about F2P they are talking about a game that has a subcription.

If you are going to compare like for like you will need to find a subsription only game and compare to a MMO with no sub what so ever. Not easy to do.