Some people's arguments about death penalty are really really weird...

1) "Death penalty gives us more adrenaline".

Why? losing %25 XP, %25 gear durability or %25 stats for a duration is not THAT important feature. The fight gives you adrenaline and excitement, not the penalty at the end of the battle. Do you want proof? Many Multiplayer FPS, TPS and similar combat games have no "death penalty"  but you still get excitement playing them. Quake 3, TF2, Jedi Outcast, DOTA, Battlefield 3 are some of the examples. Death's itself is a penalty, you lose frag, you lose time, you lose points... You don't also need to have extra penalty after death.

2) "New games have no death penalty."

Actually they do. Games like WoW were using a gear durability loss after death. So if you die a few times before repairing your gear (for example during a dungeon instance), your items will broke and you will not use them in that battle. Most of the game have a time loss penalty due to death. If you are not playing instaspawn games like Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Modern Warfare etc, you will have to wait from seconds up to a minute (TF2, DOTA, WoW, Counter-Strike, Awesomenauts...) before returning to the battle. You will wait respawn time, and run back to the combat zone. Waiting time is a death penalty. Another death penalty is, your team friends will be alone during that duration, this will give disadvantage to your team.

3) "NO!!!"

Why not? As in the Loktofeit's chicken argument, it can change from game to game. Yes, death in EVE gives you a heavy penalty, but this penalty is very suitable inside the gameplay. Game's itself built according to that death system. But think about WoW, Quake Live or similar games. What if your game was blocked 15 minutes and you were not allowed to played the game each time you die. Think about this, In some MMOs, chickens really enhance the environment. In others, the chickens are out of place. In some MMOs, the chickens are just plain annoying. So you need to plan the death penalty according your game's own gameplay and rules.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Zorgo

Whether it is a death penalty to me is irrelevent.

There should be real and tangible motivation for living.

If the game lacks incentive for staying alive and winning battles, I'm not sure it meets the requirements of being a game anymore.

 What other games penalize you for losing.  They lose, they don't advance till they win.  Sometimes they may have to wait for the next competition but they don't make the competition harder just because you lost.  Thats it.

I didn't say anything about being penalized for losing.

I said a game needed incentive to stay alive.

Think outside the box.

 No but you did say you weren't sure it meets the requirements of a game.  The incentive for not dying in an MMO is the same as any other game, you don't advance till you successfully complete the encounter, or do a different encounter.  Simple. 

The incentive is dying sucks, having to redo the content sucks, not advancing sucks.

Just saying think outside the box means you are trapped in the box.

.....ok, you are still misunderstanding me.

I don't think a game needs a death penalty.  I can imagine scenarios where there is in fact no death penalty. 

But if that is the case, I believe the game needs to have an incentive to stay alive/beat the content/survive the encounter.

These incentives could be any number of mechanics.

The trend I see which I do not like:

no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

In addition, now WoW is adding a death 'buff'. To me, that not only has crossed the line, it has removed all incentive to take down the boss 'as intended'. Now the intent is not to 'win the encounter' it is to 'push through the content'. 

Blah!

Don't argue symantics to me about my use of the word 'game'. I'm using it metaphorically, philosophically, subjectively as I see it. I'm not here to parse the literal definition. I was stressing a philosophical point.

I think a game should be designed in such a way that when you have an encounter, there is a tactical coordinated way of winning it requiring individual skills to mesh together just right in order to reach the objective. 

I believe this is a pretty standard definition of 'team sports', i.e. the purpose of the 'game'. 

Therefore, I believe that above philosophy should be reinforced and incentivized.

Too long have devs relied on the 'death penalty' to provide that incentive. For some, it works. but,

I like to think out of the box.....

does it have to be a 'death penalty' 

or would people who beg for punative death penalties actually find themselves happy, 

just as long as they have 'incentive to win'.

So, you see, I agree. 

We do not need death penalties.

We need incentives to take down the boss in a strategic, coordinated, tactical way without resorting to death, rinse, repeat.

Originally posted by Zorgo

The trend I see which I do not like:

no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Well, why not just remove death?  I mean what's the point?  These games already hand you everything else on a silver platter and all but play the game for you.

Just goes to show there will always be a market for ultra-mega casual/easy solo God Mode MMO games.

So what? Do we have only two choices?

1- Either put very harsh very brutal very unforgiving death penalties

2- or entirely remove dieing and make the player immortal?

If people play more death forgiving games will it make the game automatically ultra-mega casual / easy god mode game? So you neglect games like Quake, Starcraft or Unreal Tournament?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Zorgo

The trend I see which I do not like:

no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

 

GW2

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Zorgo

The trend I see which I do not like:

no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

 

GW2

So how is ONE game make a trend?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Zorgo

The trend I see which I do not like:

no death penalty + bosses/encounters do not reset

This means that there is a sure fire way of winning; and that is zerg, die, repeat until the boss is dead. There may be a tactical, coordinated way of killing the boss, but it isn't what people are doing. Therefore, the 'intended' way of bringing a boss down is not incentivized and a zerg mechanic becomes the 'prefered' method. If the devs actually intended the main way of taking down a boss was through multiple deaths and a non-re-setting boss; well, they have a different idea of what makes something a 'game' than I do.

What game are you talking about. MOST games i have played (WOW, DCUO, STO, ...), the boss reset if you wipe. So you cannot zerg.

Heck, even in a non-MMO like D3, bosses reset (not elite/champion .. but bosses).

 

GW2

So how is ONE game make a trend?

GW2 - y'know, the 'wave' of the future.....

+ WoW's 'death buff' = a trend.

Let's not, get bogged down in that though;

My only point has been this:

I believe a game is most fun when encounters take skill, coordination, tactics and strategy to 'prevail'. I believe, if a game is designed well, all of the incentive and reward will be placed on that philosophy.

The nature of that incentive has been 'a death penalty' in various degrees for years in mmo's.

The one's with light death penalties often don't give me the incentive to be careful when reaching an encounter, because, there are no consequences if I go Leeroy Jenkins. 

I believe there can be other incentives other than a death penalty. 

I'm just saying that I need a mechanic that incentivizes 'doing it right' rather than 'doing it over'.

Like it or not, Pavlov and B.F. Skinner agree with me. Incentive for reward produces the desired behavior.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Ugh...the inconvenience rebuttal again.

Death penalty with some substance (xp loss or gear damage) makes that fight that much more exciting and scary for many people. That sense of what could happen if you lose, Sure, if you die it really sucks...but if you win, it's that much more gratifying.

Death penalty with some substance makes you think before you act. Otherwise you can just Rambo into a fray because if you die nothing happens. That's just boring...to me anyways. Should be consequences for stupidity...like rushing a group of 6 enemies solo and expecting to come out unscathed.

Yeah like it is better when nobody takes ANY risks and only take on engagements they are absolutely sure they will win. How exciting is that?

Death penalty is a cheap thrill. I'd rather have the game rely on gameplay for fun. Gameplay, atleast, is fun for everyone.

Taking on engagements with little to no risk is personal preference and doesn't effect everyone. Boring to me, but some just don't have the cojones to make it interesting. But many like a challenge of taking on mobs lvls higher than them, or groups of them. I do it all the time.

Especially when you know if you fail, you FAIL via xp loss, or some other form of death penalty beyond a respawn as a ghost and safely retrieve your gear with a tiny inconvenience of maybe the travel back to where you were. Which in most cases isn't an issue either with all the various forms of instant travel, flying mounts, etc.

Taking away death penalty with some sting ruins it for EVERYONE. It's a double edged sword.

Could just as easily say being able to go through the game to cap with little to no fear of death is a cheap thrill too. Depends on your outlook and playstyle.

Originally posted by Nibs

Without a death penalty where's the risk in combat?

Without a death penalty death just becomes another means of fast travel (it already is in WoW).

Without a death penalty where's the rush from surviving an epic fight?

Having permadeath in an MMO is insanely fun.

No the death penalty should not be removed. I like the old UO system and EQ1 where if you died you had to run to get your equipment back. In UO you had to hope that the players or monsters that killed you don't loot your corpse. i find death penalties in MMO's to be lacking and I wish they was tougher on the players.

I can't wait for CCP to release WoD mmo with perma death as a mechanic. If I die in a game I want harsh penalties, I dont want some mechanic to hold my hand, as you will never learn how to play the game.

I also want to see MMO's go back to breaking equipment so you players have to carry spare weapons and armour with them when on long dungeon crawls. MMO's have become way to easy of late and the masses now expect everything to fed to them because they demand it.

WoW has destroyed the market with its carebear handling of its players.

Originally posted by Murdus

Originally posted by Nibs

Without a death penalty where's the risk in combat?

Without a death penalty death just becomes another means of fast travel (it already is in WoW).

Without a death penalty where's the rush from surviving an epic fight?

Having permadeath in an MMO is insanely fun.

To you. Fun is not the same for everyone. That is why it should be an option.

BTW, did you play D3? It has perma death.

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Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

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Originally posted by WillyMMORPG In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear. A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering). Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart. Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.

---

thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore. lets translates for nowadays models

" ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...

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WillyMMORPG, great story. I played EQ in those times and accomplishments felt epic!

TsaboHavoc, omg that is so true. ROFL. Haven't laughed that hard in a while. Brilliantly spoken and dead-on.

Olgard I totally agree with you too! What game is your pic from? Looks cool.

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Originally posted by WillyMMORPG

In Everquest 1, way back when, the death penalty was brutal. You'd lose a considerable amount of experience and could actually de-level, thus losing level based spells and level restricted gear.

 

A friend of mine got adventurous and went to an EQ1 zone right after leveling because he was a wizard and got the portal spell to travel their automatically. Because EQ1 devs were sadistic bastages, that zone had pockets of high level mobs mixed in with the more level appropriate monsters. This friend was out exploring the zone and ran into an island populated with spectres who were twice the level of the rest of the monsters in that zone (36ish compared to 16-18 normal mobs -- it was that Oasis area near Freeport in case you were wondering).

 

Well, long story not-so-short -- my friend died horribly, one shotted by a nasty group of spectres and (of course) was bound in Qeynos on the other side of the continent. He also de-leveled from 16 to 15, thereby making his level 16 portal spell to the Oasis no longer available. Oh, and in EQ1, your items remained on your body at point of death, so he was looking at walking through about 6-8 zones, "naked" to get back to Oasis, because in those days, you couldn't find someone willing to port a level 15 character, who was broke, out of the goodness of their heart.

 

Luckily, some actual kind soul in Oasis, who was a cleric resurrected my friend back to his body, he was able to loot his stuff, but had to remain in the area for an hour or so killing level appropriate stuff to get his level (and spells) back. Guess what? He never again got curious about new zones without first getting a couple bubbles of experience buffer.

 

thx for this friend, too bad this kinda of rich story doesnt happen anymore.  lets translates for nowadays models

" ur friend gained 2 lvls on the last 5 minutes and clicked "M" to take a look on the map, then he cliked in one of a million teleports on map and zing he is there with a lot of static mobs with a npc with a "!" on its head, he cliks the npc "oh pls mighty hero these lvl 20 hellishchickens are beating the crap outta of me kill 10 of them and return for a reward ( a piece of shit gear that will last 1 lvl)..." return to npc, "oh might leet hero i lost my googles please find for me!" ur friend click at the foot of the npc and take the google * click the npc to deliver ( advance 1 more lvl...

How is that even a story? There is no lore context. Essentially, he died and was screwed by the game, and someone helps.

How is that different than we wipe 20 times, and some kind godly tank arrives, and help us to kill the boss?

I was there .. i remember the spectres (you kite them around for single kills .. because they gave the best xp). Very boring grinding mob game with frustrating like ... oh i lose xp, now i have to kite some more spectres?

I am glad those days are over.

Originally posted by Aeonblades
Permadeath is not fun, but there should always be a penalty for rushing in blindly into a fight and getting killed. Experience loss was one of the best things about EQ1 because it actually matters where you went and how you went about things. Nowadays a death costs you 10 seconds to time. The entire thought process is gone from staying alive because there isn't a real penalty.

The many players who play D3 hard core would disagree.

Personally it is not fun for me, so i don't play hard core mode. But obviously there are those who find it fun.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by supertouchme
no

/thread

/thread again