Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dexter2010

How would you improve this experience? I find it's difficult to immerse myself in the world because the act of improving your arsenal is so trite in most games. At present day, gear act as nothing more than lego pieces with stats and little more.

I'd make MMOs about more than just improving your arsenal.

I agree.  Non-stabby things can add depth, but I think they all need to be integrated well.

For example one reason I think EQ2 is designed better than most other themeparks of its style is because so much of the subsytems are integrated well.  Crafting is tied into housing, questing, and adventuring.  Housing is tied into achievements, fluff decorating/building, adventuring, questing, and crafting.  Even though its quest system is old and and can appear rote, it is actually quite deep.  I had a deity quest to obtain a special item.  That quest involved several tied in subquests to unlock events further down the quest chain, gaining reputation to learn another language, and then quests that only can be retrieved from npcs that spoke that language.

Anyway, the sort of gear treadmill that Rift, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, and such offer doesn't feel like character progression to me.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Already done.

The tentacle sword is BIS back in CATA.

There are many builds in D3 that depends on special gear. For example, zero dog witch doctor build uses gear to reduce CD of summoning zombie dogs to zero, and then use the combo of continuously summoning them, and blow them up (a separate skill) to cost damage and healing. In this build, you reduce CD, and don't gear for DPS.

Another example is the Buriza bow in D3 where you will put one in your follower and you can use the "cold blooded" passive in a Wiz without using a cold skill yourself. That blow will cold snare and occasionally freeze mobs, and "cold blooded" add 20% damage to them. BTW, that bow is not even an end-game bow, so the dps is minimal. This strategy is on top of a build, and not the build itself, but the point is that what the item does, interact with how you build and play.

There are MANY more examples like this. I am aware that D3 is not a MMO, but the build & play style is quite close to the instanced dungeon play of many MMO .. so in this aspect, it serves as a good example.

 

Done to he extentent that you can claim that they are there, nothing more.

Lets not forget when all the "good" legendaries were added into D3. (And name 10 if there are that many)

But lets stick to the point, where the real disconnect is that i (and probably the op) would expect the current D3 options be in a mmorpg and D3 itself as an arpg and a game revolving around gear to be completely over the top.

Not just token items.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Already done.

The tentacle sword is BIS back in CATA.

There are many builds in D3 that depends on special gear. For example, zero dog witch doctor build uses gear to reduce CD of summoning zombie dogs to zero, and then use the combo of continuously summoning them, and blow them up (a separate skill) to cost damage and healing. In this build, you reduce CD, and don't gear for DPS.

Another example is the Buriza bow in D3 where you will put one in your follower and you can use the "cold blooded" passive in a Wiz without using a cold skill yourself. That blow will cold snare and occasionally freeze mobs, and "cold blooded" add 20% damage to them. BTW, that bow is not even an end-game bow, so the dps is minimal. This strategy is on top of a build, and not the build itself, but the point is that what the item does, interact with how you build and play.

There are MANY more examples like this. I am aware that D3 is not a MMO, but the build & play style is quite close to the instanced dungeon play of many MMO .. so in this aspect, it serves as a good example.

 

Done to he extentent that you can claim that they are there, nothing more.

Lets not forget when all the "good" legendaries were added into D3. (And name 10 if there are that many)

But lets stick to the point, where the real disconnect is that i (and probably the op) would expect the current D3 options be in a mmorpg and D3 itself as an arpg and a game revolving around gear to be completely over the top.

Not just token items.

So let's be clear. In D3, many items (as some of the examples i have given) are not token and have profound impact on gameplay and builds.

And about the point about D3 being ARPG? i would say many MMO have closed enough play style that it does not make a huge difference. Specifically, we are talking about running instanced dungeons. I don't really care if i run a 5-man dungeon in a MMO, or a ARPG, because pretty much it would be the same.

And you miss the point about the tentacle sword in CATA .. that one is BIS .. so pretty much NOT token.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Already done.

The tentacle sword is BIS back in CATA.

There are many builds in D3 that depends on special gear. For example, zero dog witch doctor build uses gear to reduce CD of summoning zombie dogs to zero, and then use the combo of continuously summoning them, and blow them up (a separate skill) to cost damage and healing. In this build, you reduce CD, and don't gear for DPS.

Another example is the Buriza bow in D3 where you will put one in your follower and you can use the "cold blooded" passive in a Wiz without using a cold skill yourself. That blow will cold snare and occasionally freeze mobs, and "cold blooded" add 20% damage to them. BTW, that bow is not even an end-game bow, so the dps is minimal. This strategy is on top of a build, and not the build itself, but the point is that what the item does, interact with how you build and play.

There are MANY more examples like this. I am aware that D3 is not a MMO, but the build & play style is quite close to the instanced dungeon play of many MMO .. so in this aspect, it serves as a good example.

 

Done to he extentent that you can claim that they are there, nothing more.

Lets not forget when all the "good" legendaries were added into D3. (And name 10 if there are that many)

But lets stick to the point, where the real disconnect is that i (and probably the op) would expect the current D3 options be in a mmorpg and D3 itself as an arpg and a game revolving around gear to be completely over the top.

Not just token items.

So let's be clear. In D3, many items (as some of the examples i have given) are not token and have profound impact on gameplay and builds.

And about the point about D3 being ARPG? i would say many MMO have closed enough play style that it does not make a huge difference. Specifically, we are talking about running instanced dungeons. I don't really care if i run a 5-man dungeon in a MMO, or a ARPG, because pretty much it would be the same.

And you miss the point about the tentacle sword in CATA .. that one is BIS .. so pretty much NOT token.

I still dont see 10 mentioned, if you really want to talk about "many".

As for arpg, from the pov of the usual "one system to rule them all" nonsense, i want them to be different, sorry if you disagree.

As for token, i meant it as a token of "fun" itemization, when you create 1000 items and one of them is playstylechanging or whatnot, it is a token, symbolic gesture.

Flame on!

:)

I remember utility weapons in Everquest 1, Low dmg dagger that has a chance to summon food on attack now this may not seem like alot but food/water was vital in Everquest your combat proficency would drop significantly if you were hungry not to meantion you start to loose HP if u were starving so you could acualy starve to death, ( unlike what ur use to now in most games food/drink is just out of combat stat regen and you never need to eat)

This dagger was useful to carry around if you 1. you couldnt carry much food around cause your weight limit didnt allow for excess weight (Monk in EQ has a passive that they fought much better when they were carrying less than 13kg total or something around that so they tried to keep weight of gear and inventory minimal as posible) and 2. there were no merchants nearby that you could purchase food from there was also a weapon that summoned water which was a great help when farming in a desert because you would drink all your drinks fairly quickly since it was a dessert.

There were also weapons with chance on hit effects, dmg, bleeds, stuns on unique weapons. Also there was armor that had active effects. For example the theif had a armband that could summon throwing knifes.

Also equipment was used for a much longer period of time it was normal to be wearing a single piece of equipment for more than 10-20 levels on somecase i was wearing an earing for 27 levels before replacing it It was my trust onyx earing that gave me +2 agi.

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

I still dont see 10 mentioned, if you really want to talk about "many".

As for arpg, from the pov of the usual "one system to rule them all" nonsense, i want them to be different, sorry if you disagree.

As for token, i meant it as a token of "fun" itemization, when you create 1000 items and one of them is playstylechanging or whatnot, it is a token, symbolic gesture.

Flame on!

:)

Gosh .. do you have to be dense? Can you just go to forums, or do a google search? Here is 10. Don't ask for 20. Go google them yourself if you really want to know more.

1) chanto set for CM wiz

2) Truim source for archon wiz

3) 4-5 pieces for WD zero dog build

4) Frostburn gauntlet for wiz cold build

5) monk sweeping build with 4-piece inna bonus

6) skorn for slow disintegration build (and other disintegration AP reducing items)

7) Thing of teh Deep for pick-up raidius based build

8) buriza bow on rogue follow with cold blooded passive on wiz

9) leoric ring for xp

10) Three hundredth spear for Barb weapon throw build

And as you can see, most are from wiz (4 out of 10), because i am not as familiar with other classes and how their special builds. Furthermore, i haven't even touched on the specific skill boosting affix which will further synerize with MANY builds.

Lastly, there are also non-build synergy, but game mechanics changing items such as a) a trail of fire on ground, b) cast random fireballs, c) give you a random shild, d) summon a pet occasionally ......

So the idea that items are just about specs ... is false, at least in this game.

Now we are not talking about there should be just one system to rule them all ... we are talking about item diversification and whether they are only about stats. That is obviously not true, at least in this example.

You sub gear variety for build variety.

WoW might have piss poor gear variety, as in there is a clear cut BiS for each class and spec.

But if you do the math, there are what, 33 specs?

Or you take a game like Rift there are almost countless soul builds - though the # that are viable is a different and probably much smaller number.

Unique gear is great... but when everyone has unique gear it is no longer unique.

And when only a few have unique gear, everyone else hates it.

Better off spending the dev time creating more playstyle options (classes, specs, builds etc.) than making custom gear for everyone.

More bang for your buck, but more so more enjoyment for your players for your dev TIME, and that leads to more players and more money which leads to more devs and more dev TIME etc etc. etc.

Yups agree, MUCH more rewarding getting an extra skill that you integrate into all the skills you have, than getting um +10 statx.

Example: get a new skills, work out new increased combinations, builds, best time to use or shelf the skill etc.  Not to mention just more complexity which is rewarding when you manage it.  Immersion means engaging with your character, the more you depth to your char the more you get immersed/absorbed.

OR

Get new item +10, go to dummy try it out, you get +10, go to raid again, do same thing again, you got +10, so has all your friends, you all went up by +10 this tier.  Wait for next tier so you can get another +10.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Yups agree, MUCH more rewarding getting an extra skill that you integrate into all the skills you have, than getting um +10 statx.

Example: get a new skills, work out new increased combinations, builds, best time to use or shelf the skill etc.  Not to mention just more complexity which is rewarding when you manage it.  Immersion means engaging with your character, the more you depth to your char the more you get immersed/absorbed.

 

OR

 

Get new item +10, go to dummy try it out, you get +10, go to raid again, do same thing again, you got +10, so has all your friends, you all went up by +10 this tier.  Wait for next tier so you can get another +10.

No argument here. However, making a new skill costs a lot more (design, art assets, balance) than putting stats on an item.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Yups agree, MUCH more rewarding getting an extra skill that you integrate into all the skills you have, than getting um +10 statx.

Example: get a new skills, work out new increased combinations, builds, best time to use or shelf the skill etc.  Not to mention just more complexity which is rewarding when you manage it.  Immersion means engaging with your character, the more you depth to your char the more you get immersed/absorbed.

 

OR

 

Get new item +10, go to dummy try it out, you get +10, go to raid again, do same thing again, you got +10, so has all your friends, you all went up by +10 this tier.  Wait for next tier so you can get another +10.

No argument here. However, making a new skill costs a lot more (design, art assets, balance) than putting stats on an item.

Agree it is more expensive, but then again look at endless resource pumped into trying to constantly balance a vertical progression game, its a false economy + its damn annoying for the game population - just look at the wow forums and mmo champion, balancing consumes everything these days.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

 

Agree it is more expensive, but then again look at endless resource pumped into trying to constantly balance a vertical progression game, its a false economy + its damn annoying for the game population - just look at the wow forums and mmo champion, balancing consumes everything these days.

Balance numbers are still cheaper than making new skills. Plus, new skills always unbalance the game.

But i suppose i would agree that most games have pretty static builds and optimization. In WOW, i remember that there is always one correct way of building each tree. That is before i left. Are there more variations now after their new skill system in MOP?

The only game that i constantly find new build variations, and would try things out is Diablo 3. I have may be changed my main build at least 3-4 times (standard blizz, then AO and variations of it for a while, then disintegration, then archon), and have keep on trying out new variations.

Few games have that kind of experimenting meta-game play. In fact, if someone knows another game that is like that, i would be more than happy to try (and don't mention PoE, because i am already playing it).

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

I still dont see 10 mentioned, if you really want to talk about "many".

As for arpg, from the pov of the usual "one system to rule them all" nonsense, i want them to be different, sorry if you disagree.

As for token, i meant it as a token of "fun" itemization, when you create 1000 items and one of them is playstylechanging or whatnot, it is a token, symbolic gesture.

Flame on!

:)

Gosh .. do you have to be dense? Can you just go to forums, or do a google search? Here is 10. Don't ask for 20. Go google them yourself if you really want to know more.

1) chanto set for CM wiz

2) Truim source for archon wiz

3) 4-5 pieces for WD zero dog build

4) Frostburn gauntlet for wiz cold build

5) monk sweeping build with 4-piece inna bonus

6) skorn for slow disintegration build (and other disintegration AP reducing items)

7) Thing of teh Deep for pick-up raidius based build

8) buriza bow on rogue follow with cold blooded passive on wiz

9) leoric ring for xp

10) Three hundredth spear for Barb weapon throw build

And as you can see, most are from wiz (4 out of 10), because i am not as familiar with other classes and how their special builds. Furthermore, i haven't even touched on the specific skill boosting affix which will further synerize with MANY builds.

Lastly, there are also non-build synergy, but game mechanics changing items such as a) a trail of fire on ground, b) cast random fireballs, c) give you a random shild, d) summon a pet occasionally ......

So the idea that items are just about specs ... is false, at least in this game.

Now we are not talking about there should be just one system to rule them all ... we are talking about item diversification and whether they are only about stats. That is obviously not true, at least in this example.

Well, you say "items are not just about stats", yet 1,2, especially 6, 7 and partially 10 and 4 are all about stats or dps bonuses...

Do you see no difference between 1 and 3, 8 and 10 ?

Similarly a, b, and d are more cosmetic than anything...

And we are still talking about mmos here, i hope, as i said before i would be HAPPY if a mmo would feature this stuff in this amount, but they dont. I just think it is not enough for diablo.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

 

I still dont see 10 mentioned, if you really want to talk about "many".

As for arpg, from the pov of the usual "one system to rule them all" nonsense, i want them to be different, sorry if you disagree.

As for token, i meant it as a token of "fun" itemization, when you create 1000 items and one of them is playstylechanging or whatnot, it is a token, symbolic gesture.

Flame on!

:)

Gosh .. do you have to be dense? Can you just go to forums, or do a google search? Here is 10. Don't ask for 20. Go google them yourself if you really want to know more.

1) chanto set for CM wiz

2) Truim source for archon wiz

3) 4-5 pieces for WD zero dog build

4) Frostburn gauntlet for wiz cold build

5) monk sweeping build with 4-piece inna bonus

6) skorn for slow disintegration build (and other disintegration AP reducing items)

7) Thing of teh Deep for pick-up raidius based build

8) buriza bow on rogue follow with cold blooded passive on wiz

9) leoric ring for xp

10) Three hundredth spear for Barb weapon throw build

And as you can see, most are from wiz (4 out of 10), because i am not as familiar with other classes and how their special builds. Furthermore, i haven't even touched on the specific skill boosting affix which will further synerize with MANY builds.

Lastly, there are also non-build synergy, but game mechanics changing items such as a) a trail of fire on ground, b) cast random fireballs, c) give you a random shild, d) summon a pet occasionally ......

So the idea that items are just about specs ... is false, at least in this game.

Now we are not talking about there should be just one system to rule them all ... we are talking about item diversification and whether they are only about stats. That is obviously not true, at least in this example.

Well, you say "items are not just about stats", yet 1,2, especially 6, 7 and partially 10 and 4 are all about stats or dps bonuses...

Do you see no difference between 1 and 3, 8 and 10 ?

Similarly a, b, and d are more cosmetic than anything...

And we are still talking about mmos here, i hope, as i said before i would be HAPPY if a mmo would feature this stuff in this amount, but they dont. I just think it is not enough for diablo.

Flame on!

:)

 

 

Not really .. each item encourages a particular build. And like i said before, there are many more examples. May be you should go do some research before ignoring all.

In fact, just go to the AH, and pull a list of all the skill enhancing affixes. Those are not stats, are they? There are like 20 of those .. without even going into special legendary stuff.

And if you think so many are not enough for a game, no game will ever satisfy you.

Originally posted by nariusseldon 

Not really .. each item encourages a particular build. And like i said before, there are many more examples. May be you should go do some research before ignoring all.

In fact, just go to the AH, and pull a list of all the skill enhancing affixes. Those are not stats, are they? There are like 20 of those .. without even going into special legendary stuff.

And if you think so many are not enough for a game, no game will ever satisfy you.

Encouraging particular builds is a stretch, how does skorn encourage low aps builds more than any other slow weapon?

(If we assume that slow weapons are really a choice outside budget situations)

This is the difference between stat and mechanics based, zero dog eq actually enables you to play like you would not be able to do otherwise, which makes the choice of wearing it or not more interesting, it is more than a stat stick.

As for skill affixes, this is the same all over, we have several token ones that actually do something (ap/crit for example) and most of them are +X% damage or +% crit.

As for satisfying, dunno, i keep my spirits up with the reality, that when i, once in a while, find a satisfying game, i play it without the need to vindicate myself :) (Since we are again exchanging stereotypes...)

Flame on!

:)