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Originally posted by casual187
"During one of the live streaming events this last week, developer Zekial explained that they decided to go with locking character down during skill use so that they could also slow the mobs down, give them longer tells. When you allow characters to move during combat you have to speed up the mob animation and shorten the tells to the point where they are no longer tells because they cannot be reacted to in time. They have to go fast because characters may be circle straffing constantly and if they are you will never hit them. This ends up leading to a situation where everyone has to be moving constantly simply because they CAN move constantly."

So ya the locking of combat was thought about carefully.

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People want to circle strafe until the cows come home and spam attacks like a chicken with its head cut off while constantly bunny hop jumping.

MMO combat is lot like a farm. An ADHD farm.

Look at all the bashing Tera's combat got.

Based on this information, I think I'm going to pass on this one. The animation lock alone is a deterrent. It really eludes me how a system with such a lock could be considered active combat, let alone fun. 

I also don't the understand their refusal to launch with more classes, let alone call them by their traditional names. It's DnD, the names of the classes are a bit of their culture. 

After my initial misgivings, I ultimately found Neverwinter to be a pretty fun game for what it is, that being a co-op dungeon crawler first and foremost. As an MMORPG, it's sorely lacking in a large explorable world and any sense of permanence, but with most recent titles being little more than glorified single-player games where the sole purpose is to quest to cap and then spam a few dungeons for gear, this isn't anything terribly new.

The value of Neverwinter is ultimately going to be in the Foundry, for me. If I approach Neverwinter as an MMORPG, it's a failure in my eyes, but if I approach it as a co-op dungeon crawler with a persistent "hub" zone for roleplay / trade and a system that allows me to create my own campaigns to share with others, then it does a damn good job. It isn't the years-of-time-invested MMO messiah I and many others are looking for, but it's an excellent title to keep in the library of games I visit regularly.

MY BEST

Combat, unlike Tera the game actually roots you on ever skill but in a good way because it gives the feeling of weighty combat and feels visceral as you said.  To turn this off then you would have the skating effect like GW2.  I think both styles can work but after playing NWO I tend to like the more realistic approach.  That said the dodge/block mechanics are not as intuitive as they could be and I have high hopes Cryptic gets this fixed before launch.  Using the Dodge/Block mechanic is suppose to interrupt your normal action abilities but currently they do not always.

The UI, I love a minimalist approach to UI's in general and skill bars in particular.  Having to choose between skills sets the game up as a deck builder type system.  Coming from a background in M:TG this will always feel more intuitive and more realistic to me.  Having to choose wisely is what sets these sorts of games apart from the games like WoW that give you access to al lyour skills.

Classes, after 5+ months of GW2 its nice to actually get back into a game with actual roles to perform and its nice knowing my choice of class will grant me specific plusses and minuses compared to a game like GW2 where everyone can be everything.  I like knowing I am squishy and can not ranged for squat on my Trickster Rogue this means I will need to find friends to provide me with the perfect compliment for running dungeons.

Foundry System, Love how the Foudnry missions scale to your level which means al lFoudnry missions are available and I was expecting this.  To me this just solidfys UGC as being the most innovative feature to hit the Themepark sub-genre of MMO's.

MY WORST

The dodge/block mechanic not being as intuitive as the rest of the combat system.  Hopefully this gets fixed as this portion of the combat will need to be spot on to offset the self rooting of the normal combat flow.

Character Avatars, I dislike how they're scrunched over as if they are all hunchbacked.  I also dislike how the characters themselves lean way over in an almost unnatural look while running around. 

Dungeon Delving, only being able to run 5 man dungeons during specific times is really a turn off for the average MMO player.  I dislike greatly having to wait 3 or 4 horus before the next "Dungeon Delving" event starts.  IMO the best recource is to provide a small XP bump during thsoe times as an incentive but to keep the dungeons open at all times.  I was unable to do Cragmire Crypts because I didn't realize this was the case.

Companions, I do not like pet classes and wish this was not a feature of the game.

Lastly I dislike how the advanced paragon paths are implemented.  I was really hoping for a brand new class with new mechanics isntead all you get are new traits and skills while keeping the use of all your old skills.  This is just a personal pet peeve because I am strongly biased toward deep character progression systems.

Originally posted by jehkahn12
Great write up. I feel the lack of classes in the beginning could be a deal breaker. Not having a Ranger class at launch says to me justhow out of touch with D&D cryptic is. I have a question for those in beta. Are the traps randomized? I think that can go a long way toward replayability. That was one of the things about DDO I didn't like. It takes away from the experience playing a rogue when your party warn you where the traps are ahead of time.

For what its worth there was some datamined information found in the files during Beta.  Looks like they are working on 2 unannounced classes the Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock.  Now I do not know if this will be on release but according to Totalbiscuits video they Dev confirmed other classes are actively being worked upon that havn't been announced.  This is further proof there will be additional classes released.

Classes
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Archer_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Controller_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Devoted_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Greatweapon_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Guardian_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Scourge_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Trickster_Selected.Wtex

Alt Icons
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Cleric_Devotedcleric_Selected.Wt ex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Fighter_Guardian_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Rogue_Trickster_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Wizard_Controlwizard_Selected.Wt ex

Originally posted by Destai

Based on this information, I think I'm going to pass on this one. The animation lock alone is a deterrent. It really eludes me how a system with such a lock could be considered active combat, let alone fun. 

I also don't the understand their refusal to launch with more classes, let alone call them by their traditional names. It's DnD, the names of the classes are a bit of their culture. 

You actually have to play the game to give it a fair shake.  Liek I said I was really apprehensive about the combat after I learned it rooting mechanics but for what its worth it feel more natural and intuitive compared to Tera.

Originally posted by azzamasin

 

 

Classes
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Archer_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Controller_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Devoted_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Greatweapon_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Guardian_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Scourge_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Trickster_Selected.Wtex

Alt Icons
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Cleric_Devotedcleric_Selected.Wt ex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Fighter_Guardian_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Rogue_Trickster_Selected.Wtex
Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Wizard_Controlwizard_Selected.Wt ex

I love you, Azz.  Thanks for this!

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Destai

Based on this information, I think I'm going to pass on this one. The animation lock alone is a deterrent. It really eludes me how a system with such a lock could be considered active combat, let alone fun. 

I also don't the understand their refusal to launch with more classes, let alone call them by their traditional names. It's DnD, the names of the classes are a bit of their culture. 

You actually have to play the game to give it a fair shake.  Liek I said I was really apprehensive about the combat after I learned it rooting mechanics but for what its worth it feel more natural and intuitive compared to Tera.

Thanks, my apprehension is from TERA. Since it will be free to play I may as well try it, right?

Originally posted by azzamasin

For what its worth there was some datamined information found in the files during Beta.  Looks like they are working on 2 unannounced classes the Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock.  Now I do not know if this will be on release but according to Totalbiscuits video they Dev confirmed other classes are actively being worked upon that havn't been announced.  This is further proof there will be additional classes released.

Classes

Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Archer_Selected.Wtex

Texture_Library/Ui/Charactercreation/Paths/Class_Icon_Player_Scourge_Selected.Wtex

 

Thats indeed a nice find ! :)

well I was not paying 200 bucks to get into beta,  no way.  I am shocked at how many folks did.  I sure hope they get their moneys worth.  Otherwise in a few months were going to see them on the forums talkinb about how they got ripped off. 

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

 You make some good points. If there were some  AAA games launching with action combat and some with tactical, stat driven combat it wouldn't be such an issue. But it does seem that ALL the new MMOs are embracing this action trend and I hardily dislike it.  And it hasn't proven to be any more successful than traditional MMO combat, so the bandwagon jump is puzzling.

Originally posted by erictlewis

well I was not paying 200 bucks to get into beta,  no way.  I am shocked at how many folks did.  I sure hope they get their moneys worth.  Otherwise in a few months were going to see them on the forums talkinb about how they got ripped off. 

 

I don't know about you but where I am I see a lot of Mercedes on the road... Why should they buy those when they can get a used Hyundai for about $1500...

Some people just have a lot more disposable income than others.

I do not get why some people are oblivious to this...

Originally posted by Vonatar

The very big negative for me was seeing how linear the game is. It is just quest #1 then quest #2, #3, #4 and so on, leading you through areas and mini-dungeons. Maybe this changes after level 30 but I get the feeling this is how it is designed all the way to 60.

 

It's fun the first time perhaps, but offers zero replayability as it will be exactly the same content in the same order when you play an alt. Which means that all there is to do other than follow the questline is re-run dungeons, or do Foundry content. I don't see how this will hold my attention for more than 1 playthrough and maybe a few weeks afterwards.

 

It's a shame that this is a growing trend in MMOs these days. Great journey to max level, but then it's pretty much game over unless you want to keep grinding (I'm looking at you GW2).

 You seem to be forgetting the foundry. Did you even play any foundry quests? Basically one never evens needs to do cryptic content if one doesn't want to one can level up entirely on foundry content. I imagine that players will be able to do better with the foundry then cryptic themselves much like the moders in Skyrim. Time will tell but locking yourself into cryptic only content mind frame seems really limiting considering the game, and lets face it no game company has ever kept up enough content to please the locusts.

Originally posted by erictlewis

well I was not paying 200 bucks to get into beta,  no way.  I am shocked at how many folks did.  I sure hope they get their moneys worth.  Otherwise in a few months were going to see them on the forums talkinb about how they got ripped off. 

 

 

 Only cost $60 you know the average price of almost any B2P game to get into the beta's.

Always a good thing to be well informed

Originally posted by Destai

Based on this information, I think I'm going to pass on this one. The animation lock alone is a deterrent. It really eludes me how a system with such a lock could be considered active combat, let alone fun. 

I also don't the understand their refusal to launch with more classes, let alone call them by their traditional names. It's DnD, the names of the classes are a bit of their culture. 

 

 3 things for the record.

1) D&D releaased with 4, yes only 4 classes. (Thief, mage, fighter, cleric) it has taken them 40 some years to get as many as there are now.

2) They are not refusing to release new classes, they are refusing to to delay the game another year to add more. they are already working on new class as can be seen by the data mine posts here, but those classes will have to be play tested and not just thrown in on short notice.

While we all would like more classes (and they are working on them) better to have them tested and bug free when releaased then just thrown in to buffer intial launch reactions. (IMO anyway)  In comparison D3 had 5 classes, TL2 had only 4. Having a bunch of classes where half of them are dull, boring, and useless is well useless. 

3) The class names come directly from the D&D 4th edition rules which cryptic is useing for Neverwinter so your complaint seems odd. Best take it up with Wizards of the coast for making the names.

From what I've read in this article and the comments it seems Cryptic is relying on the Foundary to compensate for a single linear leveling quest line.  That smells like a recipe for disaster to me. 

City of Heroes had a player made content system.  That degenerated into a powerl leveling tool.  Players simply designed instances that were small maps with lots of mobs to "Kill, Crush, Destroy".  Paragon Studios took measure to prevent that and use of the player made content stopped.  Even the story arcs that people had taken the time to plot and plan out and carefully design weren't played.  People weren't interested in the "story".  They just wanted to level up.

I know Dungeons and Dragons based games have a rich tradition of player involvement and creativity, however that tends to fall by the wayside when people get focused on the "Endgame".  The journey is no longer the "thing" in MMOs.  Now there has to be a goal otherwise why bother playing.  I'm afraid that user generated content will simply be used as an express lane to whatever the "endgame" might be.

Also the last game Cryptic put out was severly lacking in content as well.  That was STO and the aftershocks of that disaster must still shudder around Cryptic.  I know it's making me take a wait and see on a title I would ordinarily be first in line for.

Originally posted by Senadina

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Zefire

The problem with these guys is that they are trying to support a combat style that has been proven not to work in mmos.

Really? From my experience with this type of combat it not only proves that it works but proves to me that I would rather not go back to the old way of combat ever again.

sorry but I disagree and see no proof.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there has been some push-back from the MMO gaming coumminty with the current action combat trend.  I don't think it would be so much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that just about every single new MMO releasing in the next few years is embracing this mechanic with little to no option for those of us who prefer slower and more tactically sound, character driven combat.  What proof we can offer is that there is yet to be a truly successful action oriented MMORPG, but then I suppose you are happy with the mediocrity thus far.  I think many players and even some developers are under the mistaken belief that a change in combat formula is what the genre needs to move forward, when the real problem is the lack of diversity, creativity, quality and quantity of content, especially at the higher end of the level spectrum.  This trend to change virtual worlds into arcade games is a troubling and ultimately destructive path to be taking for MMORPGs.

 You make some good points. If there were some  AAA games launching with action combat and some with tactical, stat driven combat it wouldn't be such an issue. But it does seem that ALL the new MMOs are embracing this action trend and I hardily dislike it.  And it hasn't proven to be any more successful than traditional MMO combat, so the bandwagon jump is puzzling.

 I agree. Action arcade style combat is not good for MMOs.

maybe I am missing something here .... but when I played D&d back in the day ... (WAY BACK) first and second edition rules. I do not recall there being a level cap. They did say that you would "Cap" at 20 but you could go beyond.

but that is not my point

In D&D you had fun in whatever adventure you were in .... "Keep on the boarderlands" was a level 1-3, "Sinister secret of Saltmarsh" was a 4-6 and the nightmare of "Tomb of Horrors" was a 17+ dungeon. There was no end game, you simply enjoyed the world and the adventure that was there .. and I hope that Neverwinter brings that to the table. I hope that the foundry is able to bring the adventure to the table and avoid the trap that is the "Endgame"

I did like the article and look forward to what the game will bring.

Originally posted by wkyfam
I tend to agree with you assessment thus far, more or less.  The combat is both really fun, yet the animations locking you into a move and thereby hindering your ability to dodge is frustrating.  Also, the Foundry will be the life or death of this game.  From the content I experienced during beta, this could be really awesome or really terrible.  While there were a couple of good adventures that at least demonstrated the potential of the Foundry, there were more adventures created by users that show just how badly this can be done.  As with many things, the Foundry may balance-out after launch, once more users have access to create their content.  Hopefully this is the case as opposed to the Foundry being congested with many silly, useless adventures containing more typos and grammatical errors than clever design and interesting mobs.

I have a quick question on the foundry.  Is there a rating system built in?  So I can allow others to be the guinee pigs?:)  Also are there rewards other than xp involved in the player created content?