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General Discussion  » Why TESO won't become the biggest mmorpg around

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68 posts found
  Findariel

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 216

 
OP  2/13/13 1:58:17 PM#1
Whether Cyrodiil is 1.5 times or 6 times as big as the 1-50 levelling areas - it still means that most of the endgame content will be in a "world PvP" area. Unless you'll have flying mounts or insta-travel "waypoints" that get you to your factions "safe area" or fortress/outpost within Cyrodiil that means that dungeon runners will have to travel through more or less dangerous areas with the chance of getting killed by other players. Be it individuals or roaming zergs or groups that camp certain passages or dungeon entrances to prevent players from opposing factions from entering.

Depending on how big the risk is, I think a lot of MMO players won't like that at all. It will cost TESO a lot of "carebearish" players.

TESO seems to rather cater former hardcore Darkfall/DAoC players than TES players and PvE oriented type of players.
  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

2/13/13 1:59:17 PM#2

Because it's another contrived themepark.

/thread

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  dorksmetal

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 76

2/13/13 2:04:29 PM#3
they already stated there would be fast travel locations within the world pvp they just become inactive if the point is under attack. 

  Crazyhorsek

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/12
Posts: 252

2/13/13 2:06:00 PM#4
Originally posted by MindTrigger

Because it's another contrived themepark.

/thread

<drumroll> enter the "hipster trendy sandbox police". Sure... it will fail because its not "sandbox"... as you've seen, sandbox games have had TREMENDOUS success... lol

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

But... then again, how is that a bad thing?

  Findariel

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 216

 
OP  2/13/13 2:06:41 PM#5
Originally posted by dorksmetal
they already stated there would be fast travel locations within the world pvp they just become inactive if the point is under attack. 

Ah I see, a bit the same as GW2 waypoints .. but will dungeon entrances also be there?

  bakabröd

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/05
Posts: 135

2/13/13 2:07:10 PM#6

it will rule becouse of fus ro dah!!

 

  cronius77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1313

2/13/13 2:08:25 PM#7
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek
Originally posted by MindTrigger

Because it's another contrived themepark.

/thread

enter the "hipster trendy sandbox police". Sure... it will fail because its not "sandbox"... as you've seen, sandbox games have had TREMENDOUS success... lol

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

But... then again, how is that a bad thing?

this 100 times over seriously .

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/13/13 2:22:42 PM#8
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

 DaoC was the first game to try to make PvP for Carebears and seeing as how easy it was to roll over the other realms on the server my guild was on...its blatantly obvious.

People who had their first taste of PvP in DaoC wouldnt know real PvP if they suddenly found themselves at a rez point before they realized WTF just happened to them. DaoC = zerg PvP that requires little skill from the individual and THAT is why guilds from previous PvP games dominated their servers...individual skilled players, playing as a group in a game made to force grouped PvP...worse yet, CC heavy PvP.

DaoC made it all too easy to control everything, get 3-5 skilled PvP vets and watch them stop a large group of carebears that believe they know what PvP is all about while you take your medium sized group and take control of areas that require 50+ mouthbreathers to take.

BTW, anyone targetting players of an old game that never topped 400k players at its peak is just asking for a whole lot of fail unless they go with F2P/B2P right from the start.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  blastermaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/07
Posts: 124

2/13/13 2:35:04 PM#9
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

 DaoC was the first game to try to make PvP for Carebears and seeing as how easy it was to roll over the other realms on the server my guild was on...its blatantly obvious.

People who had their first taste of PvP in DaoC wouldnt know real PvP if they suddenly found themselves at a rez point before they realized WTF just happened to them. DaoC = zerg PvP that requires little skill from the individual and THAT is why guilds from previous PvP games dominated their servers...individual skilled players, playing as a group in a game made to force grouped PvP...worse yet, CC heavy PvP.

DaoC made it all too easy to control everything, get 3-5 skilled PvP vets and watch them stop a large group of carebears that believe they know what PvP is all about while you take your medium sized group and take control of areas that require 50+ mouthbreathers to take.

BTW, anyone targetting players of an old game that never topped 400k players at its peak is just asking for a whole lot of fail unless they go with F2P/B2P right from the start.

mmm.. ok.... but this can apply to any game where there is PvP really.... FPS,  RTS, etc.. Skilled player are better than other, hence why they are "skilled".. so having a couple of them fair well against a bunch of not so skilled ones is kind of normal no?? so I don't really see the point ?!

And regarding the 400k player at it's peak, it was a different time back then. WoW had yet to bring the herd of casuals and non-gamers and made them part of the MMO crowd, so I would think 400k was pretty good for something done by near unknown company.

 

  Coldren

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 427

2/13/13 2:38:39 PM#10
BTW, anyone targetting players of an old game that never topped 400k players at its peak is just asking for a whole lot of fail unless they go with F2P/B2P right from the start.

Just a small note:

If I recall, when DAoC was at it's peak, I don't believe the market was the size it is now. WoW really expanded the market size, and dwarfed anything that came before, or since.

I think UO had at most 250k subscribers (If I remember the old charts correctly), and I would not ever have considered it a "fail". Or DAoC, before ToA came along.

  tazarconan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 1022

2/13/13 2:39:30 PM#11
Originally posted by Findariel
Whether Cyrodiil is 1.5 times or 6 times as big as the 1-50 levelling areas - it still means that most of the endgame content will be in a "world PvP" area. Unless you'll have flying mounts or insta-travel "waypoints" that get you to your factions "safe area" or fortress/outpost within Cyrodiil that means that dungeon runners will have to travel through more or less dangerous areas with the chance of getting killed by other players. Be it individuals or roaming zergs or groups that camp certain passages or dungeon entrances to prevent players from opposing factions from entering.

Depending on how big the risk is, I think a lot of MMO players won't like that at all. It will cost TESO a lot of "carebearish" players.

TESO seems to rather cater former hardcore Darkfall/DAoC players than TES players and PvE oriented type of players.

Same thing used to happen in wow in many dungeons and raid entrances. I recall many hordeswere attacking and ganging other groups just outside the dungeons heh. Was quite fun .Some times mass raid vs raid groups battles happened just outside the raid dungeons . I dont think  some corpse runs killed anyone for real. If the game will be good things like that are not issues.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/13/13 2:44:15 PM#12
Originally posted by Coldren
BTW, anyone targetting players of an old game that never topped 400k players at its peak is just asking for a whole lot of fail unless they go with F2P/B2P right from the start.

Just a small note:

If I recall, when DAoC was at it's peak, I don't believe the market was the size it is now. WoW really expanded the market size, and dwarfed anything that came before, or since.

I think UO had at most 250k subscribers (If I remember the old charts correctly), and I would not ever have considered it a "fail". Or DAoC, before ToA came along.

 Just a small note: EverQuest topped 750k players and that was DaoCs prime target since it was an EQ clone with an RvR focus...also, SWG brought in mostly new players and Lineage was running with almost 3 million players at the time of DaoCs release.

Thanks for playing the spin game though by trying to make a point null just because there are more people playing today...more playing today does not = more DaoC gameplay fans heh

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1903

2/13/13 2:51:31 PM#13

OP

When a car maker designs a car does he expect everyone to want to buy it ?

When a candy bar manufacturer makes a candy bar do they expect everyone to buy it ?

When a home owner sells their house...do they expect everyone to make an offer to buy it ?

 

Software game companys...same thing.They want to appeal to as many as possible, but still offer features to differentiate themselves....that will not appeal to some players.

Does Eve appeal to all players ?

Does league of Legends ?

Does World of Tanks ?

yet all are doing well.

 

IF you want to just pve in ESOL...you can.But you would be missing the main reason most would buy the game....the realm vs realm conflict.

 

  Crazyhorsek

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/12
Posts: 252

2/13/13 2:51:48 PM#14
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

 DaoC was the first game to try to make PvP for Carebears and seeing as how easy it was to roll over the other realms on the server my guild was on...its blatantly obvious.

 

DaoC made it all too easy to control everything, get 3-5 skilled PvP vets and watch them stop a large group of carebears that believe they know what PvP is all about while you take your medium sized group and take control of areas that require 50+ mouthbreathers to take.

BTW, anyone targetting players of an old game that never topped 400k players at its peak is just asking for a whole lot of fail unless they go with F2P/B2P right from the start.

Hm... you do know what "carebear" is right? Because its obvious you don't...

Regarding those 400k. Listen... since when you need 400 thousand people to play with? Do you play with those 400 thousand people? Do you play with those 10 million people playing wow?

I dont get this "MOAR PEOPLZ MAKEZ BETTA GAME" thing... well... I played with 3000 in daoc. And it was enough... really. And you know what... I didnt really care or bother or even think about the other 397 thousand! 

If 400 thousand people arent enough for you, shit... just fire up Far Cry 3 or Skyrim and put 40 million bots running around. You have issues. Seriously. lol

(btw... 400.000 times 14.99 sub each, gives around 6 million each month. Its hardly a bad sum specially when you're talking about DAoC and Mythic. And you rather go F2P than getting 6 million a month? again - you have issues)

 

EDIT: Spelling

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/13/13 2:55:26 PM#15
Originally posted by blaster101

mmm.. ok.... but this can apply to any game where there is PvP really.... FPS,  RTS, etc.. Skilled player are better than other, hence why they are "skilled".. so having a couple of them fair well against a bunch of not so skilled ones is kind of normal no?? so I don't really see the point ?!

And regarding the 400k player at it's peak, it was a different time back then. WoW had yet to bring the herd of casuals and non-gamers and made them part of the MMO crowd, so I would think 400k was pretty good for something done by near unknown company.

 

 No, you dont get it because of your lack of pre carebear PvP games. in previous games, PvP was either open world meaning everyone was doing it, getting good and staying good at it or it was in games like Asherons Call where two people with decent skill could end up fighting for 20+ minutes without dieing creating skill above and beyond the crap we mostly see today.

and im not even talking about these pro-gamer guilds that have come about the last 7 years, just average gamers that have played together a long time at a type of gameplay that they can log into a brand new game, create characters together and start steamrolling people while learning how to play, either solo or grouped. That instead of just joining the largest group of people they can find in a PvP area, they instead seek out those they know even if only a few of them, and run together because they know the other people with them know WTF they are doing and will protect each other for no reason other than to preotect each other, not a goal, not that little carrot on a stick.

As for your ending comment, I touched on it in my other post above. EQ was king in the west until WoW...and outside the west there were bigger games.

So, I will now turn your point against you. Why clone DaoC which had a similar playerbase volumn as SWG when SWG is more like TES than DaoC is? Oops. Fail is fail, bastardizing an IP because you just want to create a sequal to another game is just plain wrong.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

2/13/13 3:00:43 PM#16

I don't know that this is in the design, but what I expect is that an LFG tool will provide a no-risk teleport into a dungeon making dungeon runs viable for level cap players looking to avoid PVP.  I don't expect PVEers to be forced into PVP.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Crazyhorsek

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/12
Posts: 252

2/13/13 3:03:59 PM#17
Originally posted by XAPGames

I don't know that this is in the design, but what I expect is that an LFG tool will provide a no-risk teleport into a dungeon making dungeon runs viable for level cap players looking to avoid PVP.  I don't expect PVEers to be forced into PVP.

 

If those dungeos are located in zones that are controlled by the enemy, theres no fast travel, no LFG, nothing... you'll have to risk traveling there - its the PvP zone, its also persistant so... no way around - risk and travel, or... stay behind your realm's walls.

  Crazyhorsek

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/12
Posts: 252

2/13/13 3:08:06 PM#18
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by blaster101

mmm.. ok.... but this can apply to any game where there is PvP really.... FPS,  RTS, etc.. Skilled player are better than other, hence why they are "skilled".. so having a couple of them fair well against a bunch of not so skilled ones is kind of normal no?? so I don't really see the point ?!

And regarding the 400k player at it's peak, it was a different time back then. WoW had yet to bring the herd of casuals and non-gamers and made them part of the MMO crowd, so I would think 400k was pretty good for something done by near unknown company.

 

 

So, I will now turn your point against you. Why clone DaoC which had a similar playerbase volumn as SWG when SWG is more like TES than DaoC is? Oops. Fail is fail, bastardizing an IP because you just want to create a sequal to another game is just plain wrong.

My god... why? Because DAoC lived from its players from day 1 and SWG lived under the STAR WARS brand. (yes thats the only reason why SWG had the same numbers of DAoC and no, SWG is not more TES than DAoC. Only a very narrow view would come up with this kind of argument)

Seriously... 

"so I will now turn your point against you. Why is "clone daoc" still alive and SWG closed?"

Holy mother... *connection failing - brains to finger - unresponsive - critical failure - brain unresponsive - fingers report: active - continue Fingers movement without brain support: active.*

  Coldren

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 427

2/13/13 3:19:45 PM#19
Originally posted by jtcgs

 Just a small note: EverQuest topped 750k players and that was DaoCs prime target since it was an EQ clone with an RvR focus...also, SWG brought in mostly new players and Lineage was running with almost 3 million players at the time of DaoCs release.

Thanks for playing the spin game though by trying to make a point null just because there are more people playing today...more playing today does not = more DaoC gameplay fans heh

 

Spin game? It's the math game.

Let's agree to your premise that that EQ topped at 750K. Can we also agree, and being generous, in saying that DAoC was around at the same time, and also say they had, maybe, 200k?

What other major MMO's were around? Let's say UO with 150K, just to make the number nice and round. Lineage, unfortuantely, only had a little under 1 million players as of 2008.

That's 2 million players, with only one set of numbers that I can verify as of 2008. So the number might be even less.

WoW, as of October, 2012, is reported to have had 10 million subscribers. According to the wiki for Lineage, WoW at the time had even more than that. That's not even including the slew of other MMO's that are out as well.

I don't know about you, but simple math tells me that assuming the numbers you are using are anywhere near accurate, and we can agree to the DAoC/UO numbers, that the market, has indeed, grown since DAoC's time. This is math, not spin.

And while I'm at it, I wasn't disagreeing with your original point that DAoC, with it's heavy handed CC allowed skilled players to decimate larger numbers (zergs) of unskilled players.

But DAoC did get more players into the concept of PvP. As a UO player (Where individual skill was far more important, and the consequences of dying to someone much more severe), it helped lots of people aquire a taste for PvP that no other game before it did. I didn't say it wasn't easier (by way of the zerg), or that it made anyone better at it, I just noted that the market and their sizes were different when DAoC was released.

That is not spin.

 

  aleos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/07
Posts: 1900

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.

2/13/13 3:33:46 PM#20
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek
Originally posted by MindTrigger

Because it's another contrived themepark.

/thread

enter the "hipster trendy sandbox police". Sure... it will fail because its not "sandbox"... as you've seen, sandbox games have had TREMENDOUS success... lol

Yes I do hope that TESO will appeal to Darkfall / DAoC fans (actually DAoC players know how to pvp and like to pve as well) and leave all WoW carebears outside of it - yep thats my most sincere hope regarding TESO.

But... then again, how is that a bad thing?

if hes a hipster then so are you. cant ignore the double standard as you are equally just as guilty frothing at the mouth for the next big thing.

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