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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Please stop buying "founder's packs" !

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141 posts found
  TheCrow2k

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 944

2/10/13 9:18:51 PM#121
Originally posted by BitterClinger

What difference does it make?

Let's say I make Bitter Games, and I need 2,000 people to beta test my games.  The problem is that I am making a game based on some popular IP, so I know there are going to be 100,000 players trying to get into my beta! The right and appropriate solution is charging money for my 2000 beta slots.

In order to make this work, I have to entice interested players with something they can take with them into the released version of the game. The founders pack is not created by game developers or publishers; it was created by game players.

 

Getting people to pay to Beta test your product is a bad Idea. Short term, sure U made your money. Longterm most of these people will not be adequate Beta testers willing to submit detailed bug report forms. Paying also means they are no longer impartial so the general feedback they provide is at a minimum biased if not completely tainted.
  BitterClinger

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 203

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, Wildstar Online

2/10/13 9:20:26 PM#122
Originally posted by Denambren

Judging from the responses in this thread, there sure are a lot of people buying those founders packs.

 

No wonder companies keep assuming that  there are plenty of suckers out there who'll invest in the lifetime subs, founders packs, beta access, etc.

 

Yes, for the sake of disclosure, I purchased the $60 pack for Neverwinter. However, my responses in this thread are not a defense of that purchase; they're a defense of having options.

However, the OP can sleep better at night knowing that I will not be spending a dime on a great many upcoming games.  I call it a "balanced" approach.

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

2/10/13 10:03:10 PM#123
Originally posted by TheCrow2k
Getting people to pay to Beta test your product is a bad Idea. Short term, sure U made your money. Longterm most of these people will not be adequate Beta testers willing to submit detailed bug report forms. Paying also means they are no longer impartial so the general feedback they provide is at a minimum biased if not completely tainted.

That is only if you count on those people to provide feedback. I think devs only count on them to provide money.

There are other non-paying testers.

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

2/10/13 10:22:18 PM#124

How is someone's feedback on a game biased if they paid for it?

 

Do you think they are not going to speak out about things that are broken or they otherwise find fault with?

 

I'd trust someone who paid for the game to test it much more than I would someone who spent 30 seconds filling out a form so they could play a free AAA mmo for a month or two.

 

I've done both, paid for pre-orders that gave access to beta and being randomly selected from applications into betas in the past.

 

Most recently I bought the collector's edition of FFXIV.

 

The collector's edition )$60) offered:

A journal/map/or cup

an in-game item

but I got it for the head start after beign in beta (randomly selected). 

 

Then after the launch was a disappointment and they gave everyone a year + without charging any subscription.  They announced they were starting to charge (at that point the game had been already latered drastically).  When the subscription started they told us if we subscribed for 3 months:  We would get

 

Legacy status (I paid for the 3 months at once so it was $29.97)

-discounted sub $10/month for life)

-Special chocobo

-Our names in the credits for FFXIV:ARR if we requested it

-Access from day 1 of closed beta

 

But anyone who ever had an FFXIV account gets into beta once all of Eorzea is open and version 1 characters can be imported. (also everyone who had an account gets 30 days free after the official launch of FFXIV:ARR)

 

So I think companies can do it right when it comes to pricing collector's editions and certain founders bonuses.  I think though we will see more blatant scamming as people move away from sub fee based games to f2p or b2p models with microstransactions.

 

I really like how Square Enix has done it though, you can fault them for FFXIV launching in the state it did but they commited to trying to win back customers' trust.  It shows with their offers.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  olepi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 941

2/10/13 10:41:17 PM#125

It is interesting to see the new business models evolving. Games are very fad oriented, and are driven largely by hype. This new way of getting money during the hype phase, instead of waiting for a real release, is probably going to be the wave of the future.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  jdnyc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/12
Posts: 1729

2/13/13 1:05:12 AM#126
Oh hey!   Missed this thread.  I was too busy playing a game last weekend.
  tom_gore

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1789

2/13/13 1:15:50 AM#127

You can spend all you like. Just don't come raging here if/when the game sucks and you feel like you've been ripped off.

It's like asking someone to punch you into the face and then being genuinely angry that someone actually did.

 

  tom_gore

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1789

2/13/13 1:17:44 AM#128
Originally posted by olepi

It is interesting to see the new business models evolving. Games are very fad oriented, and are driven largely by hype. This new way of getting money during the hype phase, instead of waiting for a real release, is probably going to be the wave of the future.

There was another thread where a DICE dev actually said aloud that if your game is not very good, you are better off just hyping the shit out of it and collecting money before letting people to try it out.

Which is exactly what Cryptic and PW are doing with Neverwinter.

Should we draw some conclusions?

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 2731

2/13/13 3:00:20 AM#129
It's f2p is it not?

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  User Deleted
2/13/13 3:07:05 AM#130
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by olepi

It is interesting to see the new business models evolving. Games are very fad oriented, and are driven largely by hype. This new way of getting money during the hype phase, instead of waiting for a real release, is probably going to be the wave of the future.

There was another thread where a DICE dev actually said aloud that if your game is not very good, you are better off just hyping the shit out of it and collecting money before letting people to try it out.

Which is exactly what Cryptic and PW are doing with Neverwinter.

Should we draw some conclusions?

lets see they have 2 other games out F2P that have the exact same currency model this one has, they have freely allowed people for both press and this weekends beta to show what the game is like and they haven't lied to the public about things like instanced single shard worlds.

Exactly how are they hyping it like say Aliens: Colonial Marines or any of the EA titles for anything including SWTOR? cmon we're all waiting, explain how they are "concealing" their game plans from the public to make off with your money in a game title that doesn't require you to buy the founder's pack? (taps foot looks at watch and sighs)

This would like to have a word with you btw.

  Laromuss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 320

2/13/13 3:16:24 AM#131
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by olepi

It is interesting to see the new business models evolving. Games are very fad oriented, and are driven largely by hype. This new way of getting money during the hype phase, instead of waiting for a real release, is probably going to be the wave of the future.

There was another thread where a DICE dev actually said aloud that if your game is not very good, you are better off just hyping the shit out of it and collecting money before letting people to try it out.

Which is exactly what Cryptic and PW are doing with Neverwinter.

Should we draw some conclusions?

lets see they have 2 other games out F2P that have the exact same currency model this one has, they have freely allowed people for both press and this weekends beta to show what the game is like and they haven't lied to the public about things like instanced single shard worlds.

Exactly how are they hyping it like say Aliens: Colonial Marines or any of the EA titles for anything including SWTOR? cmon we're all waiting, explain how they are "concealing" their game plans from the public to make off with your money in a game title that doesn't require you to buy the founder's pack? (taps foot looks at watch and sighs)

This would like to have a word with you btw.

Agreed they haven't lied about a single element of the game. Ive played through the beta over the last weekend and everything that was shown previously has been what I got to experience and even more.  In fact i'm quite impressed with the game that I am upgrading my Founders package from the $60 dollar to $200 to support a very well made game thus far.  The game has a lot of potential especially with the foundry.   Additonally I agree the packages are all OPTIONAL which for some reason people don't understand and feel the need to call out on things that are OPTIONAL, there are plenty of ways to get into the beta.  

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1017

2/13/13 3:26:19 AM#132

I would never buy one of these founders' packs myself.

But if you're that confident that the game will be good, and if you think the benefits offered in the pack are worth the price, then knock yourself out. It's certainly not my place to tell you that you're bad or wrong for what is effectively pre-ordering an F2P game.

If the game's good, I'll end up spending money on it too. You're just spending earlier because you feel a confidence that I could never have any more about the quality of an upcoming game.

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

2/13/13 4:10:53 AM#133
Originally posted by Aerowyn
i think a worse one is charging a box fee + charging a monthly sub + charging people for special items.. many if not most people who will play neverwinter probably will not spend a dime on this game why does it matter if some of the ones with more disposable income or hardcore fans want to contribute to the game and get some perks as well

I agree.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

2/13/13 10:35:43 AM#134
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by olepi

It is interesting to see the new business models evolving. Games are very fad oriented, and are driven largely by hype. This new way of getting money during the hype phase, instead of waiting for a real release, is probably going to be the wave of the future.

There was another thread where a DICE dev actually said aloud that if your game is not very good, you are better off just hyping the shit out of it and collecting money before letting people to try it out.

Which is exactly what Cryptic and PW are doing with Neverwinter.

Should we draw some conclusions?

And if people will fall for that, whose fault is it?

Personally i never pay a dime before i see the actual game, read some review, or actually play it if it has a demo or it is F2P.

And it is a free market, devs have the freedom to hype their game, and as long as they are not lying (false advertising), i don't see what is wrong?

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2702

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

2/13/13 5:59:53 PM#135


Originally posted by HappyFunBall
This trend has GOT to stop.  Selling weekend, or closed beta access?  What?  It blows my mind that game pre-orders exist, especially 1 to 1.5 years out, and people buy them.  Who would buy a product that doesn't even come out for over a year?  Seriously, what's wrong with people?

As far as Founder's packs, to me, this is saying, "Hey, our game isn't done yet, but fund our development, and beta test (or alpha test) our game, and we'll even let you PAY for it!"

You can't make 50-80k as a SQA analyst, or engineer.  But let's pay THEM to "let" us test their game. What?

Many games stress test behind the scenes, and even gather all sorts or performance data from you, and you pay them to help test their software.  This seems ass-backwards to me, especially as a principal software engineer.

I understand some people think they that are making a game they want better by beta testing, but paying for it?  Some of these founder packs are $200!!!!  For what, virtual items, and only weekend play time like Neverwinter?  I'm the Firefall beta, and it's not even a beta.  There's a ton of game content that isn't in the game yet.  Sorry, but by definition, that makes in an alpha.

Are people really THIS desperate to play a game?

The worst thing to me is not even playing the game once, and then shelling out $200 on a founders pack.  Without even knowing if you like the game or not?  Again, what??

Also, I'm not trolling.  Just posting an opinion.  I really think this is a terrible trend.



They are companies first and foremost. I cannot blame them making money grabs.

Put a lead bell on a sheep and the flock follows willingly to the slaughterhouse. An old proverb states, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

What was once a service provided by players to companies to test their games has now become a job that players willingly pay for. More power to the companies for turning this around.

I have a fence that needs whitewashing. It'll cost you to take my place, though :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

2/15/13 2:02:46 PM#136
Founder's Packs allow people to get rewards at a discounted price.  If you buy earlier you get more than if you buy when the game releases.  A lot of stuff has this pre-order mentality not just MMOs.

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  User Deleted
2/15/13 2:18:38 PM#137

The fact is, MMO players are extremely desperate right now and game companies (both big and small) know this.  

 

While I'm not a fan of "founders packs" or the whole Kickstarter thing, there are clearly many people lining up to throw their money at these companies so I don't really blame them for taking advantage of this.

 

Look at Camelot Unchained, Marc Jacobs throws out some concepts in a blog and all of a sudden it's one of the most hyped games out there without anyone even seeing an actual in-game screenshot or video, if that doesn't wreak of desperation then I don't know what does.  

 

 

 

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/15/13 2:21:51 PM#138
Can we clear that founder packs are not part of a free market.  They are part of a monopoly controlled by the company that sells them.  They even declare a saving over the cash shop equivelent which is pure BS, they set the prices.  The idea that this is free market economics at work is just incorrect.  
  DarthIxidor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 17

2/15/13 2:32:31 PM#139

It has been stated in this thread, last time I checked it was my money. If I want to pay a comapny for access, swag, an xp boost, a beanie, I'll do it. It's like pre-ordering a collectors edition. Now that I have said my piece about that, the truth in my eyes is that this helps companies with revisions. See if you know anything about programming or business there is this thing called the triple constraint and a part of that is testing. All these games whether they say so or not have a release date long before they ever say anything about it. Once that date gets closer they can either pay for testers, which they do, or they can get people to test it for them. These founders packs also give the company commited customers, and for a few lines of code added to thier account they save time, money, and are able to either pocket the money or push it into funding for things in their next project. That's my understanding anyway. I myself was looking at Firefall, I wouldn't mind dropping a $100 on a game, your gonna pay $60 for a game you want anyway, what's another $40 for some swag with it? That's just me, you guys do what you want with your money, not that I'm telling you. 

  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

2/15/13 2:34:49 PM#140
Originally posted by MightyChasm
Can we clear that founder packs are not part of a free market.  They are part of a monopoly controlled by the company that sells them.  They even declare a saving over the cash shop equivelent which is pure BS, they set the prices.  The idea that this is free market economics at work is just incorrect.  

Couldn't any product sold by any company be your so called "monopoly controlled by the company that sells them".  Last I checked Founder's Pack are priced compared to what other Founder's Packs are going for.  If not, why aren't there $25,000 Founder's Packs out there?  Cause in our free market, no one would buy them.

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

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