Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

 You mean you don't do that anyway, regardless if there is a penalty or not?

we dont. you know we don't.

Hell, I only play cause fighting wolves is fun. What other point should there be? Not winning is punishment enough, isn't it? What if I don't get a rush from a high death penalty? What if its merely an inconvenience?

Ugh...the inconvenience rebuttal again.

Death penalty with some substance (xp loss or gear damage) makes that fight that much more exciting and scary for many people. That sense of what could happen if you lose, Sure, if you die it really sucks...but if you win, it's that much more gratifying.

Death penalty with some substance makes you think before you act. Otherwise you can just Rambo into a fray because if you die nothing happens. That's just boring...to me anyways. Should be consequences for stupidity...like rushing a group of 6 enemies solo and expecting to come out unscathed.

Having to wait to respawn your character after you die, would also be included as a penalty. Removing the death penalty would open the flood gates to all sorts of issues, as there would not be any risk involved in playing the game. You would simply have an MMO filled with constant zerg battles with no substance or strategy, which mind you already occurs in many MMO's anyways. The death penalty makes a player reconsider there possible fatal choice and insights a form of strategy to insure the safety of there in game character. 

If you are constantly getting frustrated by the fact that you are dying, and having to forfeit your hard earned coin in game, maybe you should reconsider your actions more carefully. If you are running with a group, trying to complete a particularly hard raid and of course somebody doesn't pay attention and wipes the group, you should probably remove yourself from that group or that player in order to avoid death. 

I knew a guy who played EVE online for a while during my time of playing, and he was silly enough to not back up his clone. A couple of months of playing EVE who was attacked and his pod was also destroyed, in those months of playing he lost it all in a 30 second encounter.  I personally love harsher death-penalties; it seems to filter out a majority of immature players.

Originally posted by FallguyArmy
I think a better question to ask is, "What benefits do death penalties have in the progression of character leveling in MMOs?"

it's simple.

let's say a questgiver asks you to kill he scary wolf that's terrorizing the village.

the developers can easily make a wolf. It's not very easy to make the wolf scary though.

but if the wolf can kill you can dying sucks...suddenly the wolf just got scary a little, didn't it ?

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by FallguyArmy
I think a better question to ask is, "What benefits do death penalties have in the progression of character leveling in MMOs?"

it's simple.

 

let's say a questgiver asks you to kill he scary wolf that's terrorizing the village.

 

the developers can easily make a wolf. It's not very easy to make the wolf scary though.

 

but if the wolf can kill you can dying sucks...suddenly the wolf just got scary a little, didn't it ?

No?

It just means that the wolf is annoying. 

Until MMO developers implement a decent death penalty system similar to Demons Souls in which you learn and improve based on dying (and the game adjusting itself accordingly), all what death penalties amount to right now are nuisances for most players and joy for those who are masochists, both of which are hardly things a company sould be proud of when advertising their game.

Originally posted by FallguyArmy

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by FallguyArmy
I think a better question to ask is, "What benefits do death penalties have in the progression of character leveling in MMOs?"

it's simple.

 

let's say a questgiver asks you to kill he scary wolf that's terrorizing the village.

 

the developers can easily make a wolf. It's not very easy to make the wolf scary though.

 

but if the wolf can kill you can dying sucks...suddenly the wolf just got scary a little, didn't it ?

No?

 

It just means that the wolf is annoying. 

 

Until MMO developers implement a decent death penalty system similar to Demons Souls in which you learn and improve based on dying (and the game adjusting itself accordingly), all what death penalties amount to right now are nuisances for most players and joy for those who are masochists, both of which are hardly things a company sould be proud of when advertising their game.

 

jesus christ. there's no masochism involved in valuing death penalties

Originally posted by supertouchme 

jesus christ. there's no masochism involved in valuing death penalties

So why do you value death penalties in MMOs? What would be the benefits? You said it yourself previously that you don't like them, they frustrate you, and that you admitted they're an inconvenience. Yet, you said you appreciated their purpose. So what purpose does death penalties serve? 

Originally posted by FallguyArmy

Originally posted by supertouchme 

jesus christ. there's no masochism involved in valuing death penalties

So why do you value death penalties in MMOs? What would be the benefits? You said it yourself previously that you don't like them, they frustrate you, and that you admitted they're an inconvenience. Yet, you said you appreciated their purpose. So what purpose does death penalties serve? 

They make your accomplishments meaningful. 

When you wipe out a hostile fleet of ships in EVE Online, they don't respawn in a new ship and come right back to the fight.  You just blew up their ship.  It's gone. Adios.  Time for them to buy a new one and and the modules and guns that go on it.  You accomplished something.  They now no longer possess a game item that they once did.

When you kill another player in most modern MMO's... well ok.  Cool.  All you really did is teleport them to a different part of the map.  Awesome I guess.

Personally I prefer games where death has a consequence.  It gets my adrenaline flowing more, it makes the fight much more tense.  Especially if I'm risking losing something really big and expensive and difficult to replace like a deadspace fitted Machariel that I sometimes fly when I'm feeling especially courageous.

These games are in the extreme minority, but I tend to gravitate towards them for the meaningful consequences of living or dying.

Originally posted by FallguyArmy

Originally posted by supertouchme 

jesus christ. there's no masochism involved in valuing death penalties

So why do you value death penalties in MMOs? What would be the benefits? You said it yourself previously that you don't like them, they frustrate you, and that you admitted they're an inconvenience. Yet, you said you appreciated their purpose. So what purpose does death penalties serve? 

 They punish stupidity. Always a laudable goal. There hasn't been a significant death penalty in MMOs for years. Even EVE has insurance.

Originally posted by tollbooth
They elicit an emotional response when you're close to death.  If there is a heavy death penalty and you're on the verge of death your heart rate becomes elevated and the game becomes more fun.  It's not people being masachist, but about actually having stimulation for your brain.

Statements such as these without any emperical backing are quite meaningless (outside of personal opinion). Personal anecdotal evidence is not generalizeable. Then again sure you could dig around and find something in a serious game studies jorunal out there : )

Long live /corpsedrag macros?

I'm still dreaming of an open world PVP mmorpg where you can level fairly quickly.  To max level.  Maybe 2 weeks.  But die once, and you loose everything. 

Real death would only occur from another player killing you outright, and they could let you live once they injure you and put you on the ground.  Killing would have some kind of law or karma penalty.  Perhaps even in game bounties automatically put on the players head. 

But no, death penalties are good, and fine.  I don't think I would be interested in playing an mmorpg without any risk at all.  No mmo has ever gotten my heart pumping and my adrenaline flowing like EvE.  I didn't want to loose my ship.  Was EvE SUPER DUPER ULTRA exciting?  I didn't think so.  But it was that threat of lose that really got the juices flowing.  I've never had that experience with an mmorpg before or since.  Not like that. 

So could the industry remove death penalties?  Nah.  Could they make them harsher?  Yea.  Not too harsh mind you, but its that threat of lose that really gives you that sense of desperation, and realness.  It can be a great facilitator for immersion. 

Originally posted by h0urg1ass

Originally posted by FallguyArmy

Originally posted by supertouchme 

jesus christ. there's no masochism involved in valuing death penalties

So why do you value death penalties in MMOs? What would be the benefits? You said it yourself previously that you don't like them, they frustrate you, and that you admitted they're an inconvenience. Yet, you said you appreciated their purpose. So what purpose does death penalties serve? 

They make your accomplishments meaningful. 

When you wipe out a hostile fleet of ships in EVE Online, they don't respawn in a new ship and come right back to the fight.  You just blew up their ship.  It's gone. Adios.  Time for them to buy a new one and and the modules and guns that go on it.  You accomplished something.  They now no longer possess a game item that they once did.

When you kill another player in most modern MMO's... well ok.  Cool.  All you really did is teleport them to a different part of the map.  Awesome I guess.

Personally I prefer games where death has a consequence.  It gets my adrenaline flowing more, it makes the fight much more tense.  Especially if I'm risking losing something really big and expensive and difficult to replace like a deadspace fitted Machariel that I sometimes fly when I'm feeling especially courageous.

These games are in the extreme minority, but I tend to gravitate towards them for the meaningful consequences of living or dying.

This sums it up nicely.

mmm and I thought death penalties were removed already 8 years ago??

Originally posted by LauraFrost

 

mmm and I thought death penalties were removed already 8 years ago??

 

 yeah pretty much. hell in conan we use to jump off a cliff just to get to the other side of the zone faster. pretty sad actually.

Dying should feel bad, because that makes barely surviving a lot more fun and exiting.

Then again I think we need better death penalties. I suggest getting locked out of the game with that character a short time (somewhere between a few minutes and a quarter should be right but that needs some play testing) instead of losing XP or gear.

Still annoying and will get you to dislike dying, but without adding more grind, like losing your XP do. MMOs really dont need more grinding.

MMOs shoudl find a good balance when it comes to death penalty.

Too strong death penalty -> nobody ever takes risks, or tough spots turn into massive frustration

Too weak death penalty -> death doesnt matter at all

I think Vanguard had a good balance. One still would take risks, but death was something one would rather avoid.