Whether it is a death penalty to me is irrelevent.

There should be real and tangible motivation for living.

If the game lacks incentive for staying alive and winning battles, I'm not sure it meets the requirements of being a game anymore.

I see a lot of people saying rather then losing gear or stats that stop a player playing just have a XP loss, yep I kind of agree as the last thing a game company wants is people dying and then just logging off becasue they have to sit around for 15 mins or so.

But one thing I would ask about a XP loss death penalty what happens at max leave on death ? would you allow players to drop  lvls ? if you would this will come with all sorts of problems i.e gear can't be used all of a sudden due to lower lvl etc.

and if you can't drop lvl's then you have to have a different penalty for max lvl players or death means nothing ?

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

 You mean you don't do that anyway, regardless if there is a penalty or not?

we dont. you know we don't.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Whether it is a death penalty to me is irrelevent.

There should be real and tangible motivation for living.

If the game lacks incentive for staying alive and winning battles, I'm not sure it meets the requirements of being a game anymore.

 What other games penalize you for losing.  They lose, they don't advance till they win.  Sometimes they may have to wait for the next competition but they don't make the competition harder just because you lost.  Thats it.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

 You mean you don't do that anyway, regardless if there is a penalty or not?

we dont. you know we don't.

 I think many/most do just that.  Very few just run in and die over and over and over.  After a couple tries they try something different.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

 You mean you don't do that anyway, regardless if there is a penalty or not?

we dont. you know we don't.

Hell, I only play cause fighting wolves is fun. What other point should there be? Not winning is punishment enough, isn't it? What if I don't get a rush from a high death penalty? What if its merely an inconvenience?

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

 You mean you don't do that anyway, regardless if there is a penalty or not?

we dont. you know we don't.

Hell, I only play cause fighting wolves is fun. What other point should there be? Not winning is punishment enough, isn't it? What if I don't get a rush from a high death penalty? What if its merely an inconvenience?

who the hell gets a rush from a death penalty? of course it's an inconvenience. i don't LIKE death penalties and they frustrate me but i ultimately appreciate their purpose. i find it hard to believe the mmo community is largely comprised of pansies who will quit a game because they have to spend a few minutes getting resurrected by a fellow player or recouping experience.

---

Originally posted by TheScavenger
Should MMOs remove the death penalty? It never really made sense to me. Especially in the older MMOs.

 

You are dead! Lose 25% of your stats and/or skills! (usually a debuff for x amount of minutes or needing to earn x amount of exp/kill x amount of monsters to remove it)

 

This never made sense. Okay, so I die...I lose 25% of my ability...how am I supposed to kill anything to remove the debuff? Even if it is just 30 minutes...that just means I can't play for 30 minutes? Especially since most MMOs penalize you for killing weaker stuff than your level/skill...so...this seems very counter beneficial

 

Then if all your gear is damaged...how are you supposed to continue in a dungeon or a raid or do anything? gear is very important in almost all MMOs...I guess go and repair it...but usually...ESPECIALLY for tanks...its so expensive, sometimes you cant even afford to repair it all.

 

And then it runs into the same problem as losing stats/skills...but even worse...because gear is usually way more important...so without fully repaired items, again...you are penalized so much, you can't do anything.

 

So going back to the original question...should MMOs remove the death penalty? Or, at least change it to something that still lets you...you know...still play the game even if you die?

---

But if we don't die, how do we get the buff in the raid finder!?!?

What death penalty? Anything that has released in the last 8 years doesn't even have a death penalty. Dieing in todays MMOs is totally meaningless. Remove the death penalty? It already was removed years ago.

Bren

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

The only game I levelled to cap in was WOW. You just described in 10 words my entire strategy there. :)

Should they? Haven't they already?

There used to be this thing called risk vs. reward in MMOs. Dying used to mean something, where today, I use it to get a free teleport to town. Without the lows, there can never truly be the highs.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Robokapp
OP I will point out in the most honest way possible why it makes no sense to you: you're looking at it wrong. "So I died...I lose 25% xp...how am I supposed to kill anything". whoa whoa whoa. you started at death ? let's back up another 3 minutes. you're alive. you're seeing a pack of wolves. Do you engage ? it's an important question because you might die and lose 25% xp and run into the problem you stated. why should you fight them? what are the odds you'll win? what are the risks? do you know these wolves well? are you risking it ? is it worth it ? if no death penalty...run in, die, respawn, kill survivors. Booooooring

 You mean you don't do that anyway, regardless if there is a penalty or not?

we dont. you know we don't.

Hell, I only play cause fighting wolves is fun. What other point should there be? Not winning is punishment enough, isn't it? What if I don't get a rush from a high death penalty? What if its merely an inconvenience?

I think death should be an inconvenience.

I am looking at the statement i jsut wrote and i'm not sure how to describe it any more clearly. Perhaps a reference to "the curse of immortality" is in order...but how can one appreciate life if it's permanent ? we don't care a whole lot for the air we breathe other than "huh, we should stop polluting it. I'm going to do nothing about it". Yet if we'd wear an astronaut suit every time we step outside we'd perceive it as important.

the inconvenience of death is in the interest of preservation of life.

it's hard to encourage something you already have without resorting to adversity of alternatives.

can't like living unless you dislike dying. if you don't care about dying, you don't care about living.

As I wrote in an eve topic once...

you're in high-sec. a capsule appears next to you on a gate. Probably a pilot grabbing a ship. good for him. Moving on.

you're in low/null-sec. a capsule appears next to you on a gate. Is he someone who, like me, 5 minutes ago had a ship? is he a scout? a spy? he has insta-warp, he can follow me anywhere. Maybe he's the warp-in. Maybe he's bait. I can kill him in one shot but would take so long to lock him his friends can drop on me. I BETTER GET AWAY FROM HIM.

note, above is a capsule. no weapons and no way to do damage. yet the sense of preservation of life instantly kicks in. because it'd suck to die to a retard-magnet capsule.

It should be different for each MMO.  Obviously, 9.5 million people enjoy not having a death penalty in WoW, while some hardcore players enjoy a game where everything is on the line in every fight, such as in EVE.

The harsher the death pentalty, typically the fewer players.

For instance, when I played COD 2 heavily, I could pull up a list of servers.  90% of them were softcore team death match with zero respawn timer.  A very small percentage of them, were hardcore mode, search and destroy with one life and no respawning.  I played S&D exclusively because it was a lot more tactical than spawn, charge firing dual pistols, die... repeat ad nauseum.  However, the vast majority of players just want constant gun shooting action with no penalties.

you mentioned COD but I'd like to mention counterstrike.

it's old, it's a decade past its prime but by God we all loved it.

what happened when you died ?

Originally posted by Robokapp

you mentioned COD but I'd like to mention counterstrike.

 

it's old, it's a decade past its prime but by God we all loved it.

 

what happened when you died ?

Honestly, I don't know! lol

I may be one of the only FPS players on earth that never played it.

Was it harsh?

Originally posted by h0urg1ass

Originally posted by Robokapp

you mentioned COD but I'd like to mention counterstrike.

 

it's old, it's a decade past its prime but by God we all loved it.

 

what happened when you died ?

Honestly, I don't know! lol

I may be one of the only FPS players on earth that never played it.

Was it harsh?

well the game was played in rounds. varied by server but about 10 minue rounds. Once you died you could cycle thru the camera views of other players or 'free' but you stayed dead. round ended when time was up, bomb was disarmed/exploded or one team died entirely.

so when you died you'd stay dead the rest of the round.

and if you were like me and died first...and smoked a cig after each death in anger...well you'd do a lot of looking and not a lot of playing. because you'd be alive for 1 minute every 10 minutes.  :)

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by h0urg1ass

Originally posted by Robokapp

you mentioned COD but I'd like to mention counterstrike.

 

it's old, it's a decade past its prime but by God we all loved it.

 

what happened when you died ?

Honestly, I don't know! lol

I may be one of the only FPS players on earth that never played it.

Was it harsh?

well the game was played in rounds. varied by server but about 10 minue rounds. Once you died you could cycle thru the camera views of other players or 'free' but you stayed dead. round ended when time was up, bomb was disarmed/exploded or one team died entirely.

 

so when you died you'd stay dead the rest of the round.

 

and if you were like me and died first...and smoked a cig after each death in anger...well you'd do a lot of looking and not a lot of playing. because you'd be alive for 1 minute every 10 minutes.  :)

That describes the Search and Destroy mode in Modern Warfare 2 exactly.  That must be where they got the game mode from.

My overarching point is that the vast majority of gamers aren't looking for that.  Most of them just want carefree play time without any consequences.  It's one of the reasons that the average WoW player doesn't even have a single max level character yet.  Most players these days aren't looking for that harsh unforgiving world of EVE or Ultima Online.  They want their cake and eat it too.

I don't see the pendulum swinging the other direction any time soon either.  You won't find any big publishers going after a niche market, they all want to steal Blizzards crown and they'll pander to the lowest common denominator all day long in order to do it.  I mean, look at SWTOR.  It's a freakin carbon copy of WoW with lightsabers.

The more hardcore games, if you're into them, are mostly labors of love from independent publishers that don't usually have mountains of capital and hundreds of devs.  How many people have ever even heard of Darkfall or Perpetuum Online?  Both very hardcore games... both labors of love... both relatively obscure.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by supertouchme
no

/thread