Originally posted by SpectralHunter

I guess that's what I want.  Currently, the tank is always the warrior in MMOs.  It doesn't matter if the mob is completely magical and could/should devastate a warrior.  How much more interesting would it be if the mage had to "tank" the mob by casting spells and counterspelling while the warrior attacked when vulnerabilities opened up?

You know that's a very good point.

Maybe the core of the issue is just that people want to play the way "they want to play". When given a scenario where they "can't do their thing" they feel dissatisfied. Whether one player wants full hybrid and the other wants very clear, specific classes.

What would happen if a mage was asked to tank? Would they? since it's not really done would someone who played a mage just drop group or never join encounters where only a mage could tank?

As far as making hybrid classes, I think in general hybrid classes were usually jack of all trade classes. They weren't the most powerful mage or the best thief but they could get by in a pinch.

The question of the thread is eally "now that you have played Guild Wars 2, are you sold on getting rid of the trinity (presumably in other games that might do the same) and It's very clear that some people love doing multiple things and some like being damage dealer, traditional mmo tank, healer.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm more for a soft trinity. I like the idea of "interesting classes" but don't support players being a mage that can call down lava storms, then dazzle with the sword and then, in full plate, be stealthy and pick the hardest locks.

But then again that's all pen and paper stuff and we don't really find that in an mmo.

I do like the idea of people playing "some type" of warrior and "some type" of mage. I'm not really for mage as boom master but mage as "mage". damage, buffs, light spells etc. But mmo's seem to have streamlined a lot of that stuff out.

Interesting enough a friend of mine is sick of modern mmo's (he's tried them all) and he went back to Everquest a few days ago.

Originally posted by cybertrucker

So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

 

 I really wish people would have better polls than the limited choices you have.

I don't like GW2 system but that doesn't mean I don't like hybrid systems.  I prefer typical trinity (ex: wow) to GW2's system.  CoH system was very enjoyable for me. 

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by dreamscaper

Originally posted by aSynchro

I'd also like to point that trinity prevents players from being together.  What do you prefer to hear :

Ultima Online, EVE, Guild Wars 2: "hey, sure: join us and lets have fun together!"

or :

Trinity based MMORPG: "mmh, sorry: we only need a tank/healer now..."

?

 

The lack of trinity doesn't prevent this in GW2. Go over to gw2lfg.com and you'll see tons of posts requesting Warriors or Guardians specifically.

Those are the kinds of people you don't want to play with because they don't understand the game. Or they just want what they consider to be the easiest way which is not necessarily the case.

 Yep, some of the easiest dungeon runs I have had comprised entirely of cloth wearers.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

I guess that's what I want.  Currently, the tank is always the warrior in MMOs.  It doesn't matter if the mob is completely magical and could/should devastate a warrior.  How much more interesting would it be if the mage had to "tank" the mob by casting spells and counterspelling while the warrior attacked when vulnerabilities opened up?

You know that's a very good point.

Maybe the core of the issue is just that people want to play the way "they want to play". When given a scenario where they "can't do their thing" they feel dissatisfied. Whether one player wants full hybrid and the other wants very clear, specific classes.

What would happen if a mage was asked to tank? Would they? since it's not really done would someone who played a mage just drop group or never join encounters where only a mage could tank?

I think this stems from all these years of classes being subjugated to one specific role.  There was no other way of thinking.  I agree at first people will complain that as a dps, you'll have to tank but I think over time people will find the game to be more dynamic and exciting that way.  Sometimes it's good to be out of your comfort zone to experience new things.

Change is always met with opposition, regardless of whether a system would be improved or not.

Originally posted by Zzad

You have PLENTY of games with Trinity....

Its amazing how some people just cannot enjoy a different take on a game for once...

You just want clones forever?

boring.....

 Yep this is what annoys me about the constant recurrance of threads like this. How about we get some more diversity in the industry? If players like the trinity they already have hundreds of MMOs that cater to them.

Originally posted by pantheron
My problem with the trinity mainly comes down to the fact that, a lot of the time, a smart group who isn't the trinity can't accomplish the same feats as a group who isn't as intelligent with their gameplay  descisions, but is using a trinity. If all of my friends and I want to try and do content as barbarians, It should be POSSIBLE for us to complete the content.  I'm not saying it should be as  easy as a Priest/Paladin/Sorcerer mixed group, but it should be possible. I like to think that a smart group of Warriors should be capable of taking down a raid boss.

This is what GW2 aimed to do, and to an extent, they did it.  Some people have complained about multiple wipes, others have grasped the system and taken advantage of it, but overall, it's possible to do just that with a group of 5 of the same profession because that's how it was designed.  You don't have to search for or be searched for, you just play the game the way you want to, no roles, no fuss.  GW2 is a breath of fresh air to me personally, and there are plenty of trinity games out now as well, ones that I will inevitably give a try.  That's why the OP's question is misleading.  Neither trinity gameplay nor hybrid gameplay are going anywhere anytime soon.

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

I guess that's what I want.  Currently, the tank is always the warrior in MMOs.  It doesn't matter if the mob is completely magical and could/should devastate a warrior.  How much more interesting would it be if the mage had to "tank" the mob by casting spells and counterspelling while the warrior attacked when vulnerabilities opened up?

You know that's a very good point.

Maybe the core of the issue is just that people want to play the way "they want to play". When given a scenario where they "can't do their thing" they feel dissatisfied. Whether one player wants full hybrid and the other wants very clear, specific classes.

What would happen if a mage was asked to tank? Would they? since it's not really done would someone who played a mage just drop group or never join encounters where only a mage could tank?

I think this stems from all these years of classes being subjugated to one specific role.  There was no other way of thinking.  I agree at first people will complain that as a dps, you'll have to tank but I think over time people will find the game to be more dynamic and exciting that way.  Sometimes it's good to be out of your comfort zone to experience new things.

Change is always met with opposition, regardless of whether a system would be improved or not.

As a point of note, I was shocked playing my first mmo (lineage 2) and could't understand why there weren't "light spells' and "tentacle spells" and shield spells and all the other little spells that made being a mage in Neverwinter nights fun.

I did blast a lot of things.

Originally posted by Sovrath

As a point of note, I was shocked playing my first mmo (lineage 2) and could't understand why there weren't "light spells' and "tentacle spells" and shield spells and all the other little spells that made being a mage in Neverwinter nights fun.

I did blast a lot of things.

Hehe.  I was more confused as to why the dark elf females ran the way they did. 

I will concede this point.  Having a trinity system is easier on the devs.  NWN was/is a great game but it's not balanced.  In a MMO, classes have to be balanced (perhaps this paradigm needs to change?).

But yeah, I still hope and wish for a MMO like NWN.  Hopefully it'll happen before I die or am unable to play video games.

Here's how I view the trinity and all the wonderful things it has done for me in the past.......

It made looking for, and forming a group very difficult every time.  The group had to be organized perfectly.  You had to have so much tank, so much DPS, and so much healing from a healer.  Even in a guild setting someone often got left out or couldn't go because of this mechanic. 

Also....well.......there's nothing else.  That's about it. 

And that is all the wonderful things the trinity has done for me in mmos.  That is the sole purpose it has ever served me. 

Yea, I'd rather seriously not have it.  Thanks. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

 

You are very correct. But quite frankly that's how mmo's should be. Warriors should be dishing out damage and AOE spells were never fired into the fray. That's just common senes. Clerics were in the front but I don't remember them being killer Damage dealers.

The idea being that in D&D players had roles. Mages didn't march into the battle and Thieves/Rogues were always trying to get the upper hand in a sneaky way.

I don't think anyone, myself included, would say that mmo's and table top have a 1 to 1 correlation as to how accurate their rules transfer.

But the idea is that in D&D we had roles, and roles that each of us wanted to embody. I think when people are asking "do you want to have the holy trinity back, what they are saying is they want to embody those roles. If anyone can be in front, if anyone can be healing, if anyone wield magic then things stop becoming unique.

Like I said in an earlier post: Any game with any amount of specialization will have roles, be that warriors and mages or close-quarter specialists with shotguns and snipers long range rifles. GW2 certainly has roles, they are only different from what some are used to. I don't have any problem with roles - I don't think anyone does. I only have problem with the holy trinity and the accompanying aggro mechanics which make combat so unnaturally formulaic.

Some single player games have even started using it! And there is no excuse! The resources do not constrict you in a way that you can only maintain a threat table and/or attack the player nearest to them. It is unforgivable in this day and age; I could exploit the poor AI in Baldur's Gate, Morrowind and more than half of the MMORPGs I've played, but now I expect more.

I die a little inside everytime when I see a SRPG using holy trinity. Even in Bordrerlands some abilities and weapons cause "less threat". It is in too many games, I tell you... and I can't escape it! I have never liked it and it is now more widely used than ever.

A good AI challenges you. It makes you think. This was the role of the GM in P&P games. Holy trinity just makes you go on autopilot. I'm at a point where I am willing to try anything other than that horrible, horrible system.

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

Originally posted by Aerowyn

 

also seems pretty common practice people get very complacent in certain things and when something new comes along instead of trying to learn it they cry they want what they know back.. Me personally I get bored with same old same old all the time and happy to learn something new..

People hate change, even if it's an improvement.

Yep, why fix something if it' ain't broken. Not all new things are better.

I think in this case, neither system is better then the other. It's just about personal preference.

Originally posted by Quirhid

A good AI challenges you. It makes you think. This was the role of the GM in P&P games. Holy trinity just makes you go on autopilot. I'm at a point where I am willing to try anything other than that horrible, horrible system.

I think it''s less about a trinity of roles (keep in mind that I'm for a "soft" trinity or just about anything where one can have a focus on some sort of role) and what you said in that it's more about AI and how these encounters play out. You can have definite roles and still have complex fights but as you put it, the AI needs to be adaptive, intelligent, and more than rinse and repeat encounters.

Part of this is that mmo devs have completely gone down the simplification rabbit hole. I agree that just having a Tank shouting and keeping aggro and then the Damage dealers burning down the enemy (and for "some" reason they don't mind this) and then a healer to fill up a Tank is horrible. And it does contribute to Auto Pilot. But that has nothing to do with the stalwart warrior protectingg those who are not tough but who wield arcane powers or who skirt the fight waitting for moments of opportunity.

I play a tank in Tera, a game that does have roles, and it was quite refreshing for the 30 foot tall Baddie go for the healer, I couldn't get aggro so I charged across the room, putting myself between it and the healer, shield slammed it and then turned to throw out a chain and lpull a mob to me that was charging for another player in the group. It wasn't about being the tank and soaking damage as opposed to being an active participant in the fight. Which is mor e to my taste.

Part of this is also a group of players who are more interested in "leveling fast" and getting good loot. Therefore the entire experience has come down to a simplified skinner box.

take quest, run to glowy area on map, kill 10 things, run back to other glowy area on map, turn in quest, get reward, rinse and repeat.

As opposed to allowing players to explore, search, scout, find their objectives, fight if need be and during that fight they excercise their specializations that, because they work together, they are greater than their own individual contributions.

how sophisicated do you think AI in an mmo is going to get? are mobs going to completely ignore heavily armored characters and concentrate solely on unarmored casters? are they going to retreat while relentlessly firing projectiles until everyone is dead?

pen and paper games aren't restricted by video game dynamics so you can't really compare them in that regard.

I like gw2 system, however for most it a zerg. Because 2 reasons,

First with their system it is possible to work together, hell you can do really awesome things if done right. With 2 Mesmers you can keep all buff perma up, if done right.  However, because their no YOU MUST DO THIS,,,, people get confuse and so it turn into a zerg. Since it take's a lot more communication to do team work in gw2. Which only people who have teamspeak and know each other well can do it right.

Second they made dgns and such way to freaking easy, and so it not needed and when something not needed people dont use it.  Dgn are to the point that a fullly dps team, with no support are tanking abilities can beat them.

Hell I can solo multy dgns and I know a dps warrior that can solo dgns.

So this is a major problems, now the higher lvl fract can make it where a team gotta use some teamwork to beat it. However, those are the only things.  This needs to be fix, make it where dgns are extrmely hard. At first people will cry and some will elave the game. However, team work among the players will start to apper.

Originally posted by EsLafiel

I like gw2 system, however for most it a zerg. Because 2 reasons,

 

First with their system it is possible to work together, hell you can do really awesome things if done right. With 2 Mesmers you can keep all buff perma up, if done right.  However, because their no YOU MUST DO THIS,,,, people get confuse and so it turn into a zerg. Since it take's a lot more communication to do team work in gw2. Which only people who have teamspeak and know each other well can do it right.

 

Second they made dgns and such way to freaking easy, and so it not needed and when something not needed people dont use it.  Dgn are to the point that a fullly dps team, with no support are tanking abilities can beat them.

Hell I can solo multy dgns and I know a dps warrior that can solo dgns.

So this is a major problems, now the higher lvl fract can make it where a team gotta use some teamwork to beat it. However, those are the only things.  This needs to be fix, make it where dgns are extrmely hard. At first people will cry and some will elave the game. However, team work among the players will start to apper.

i agree with your first point and two mesmers working together is really amazing.. took down a champion with just one other mesmer.. took us about 30 min but we did it without a single down was epic stuff:)

for dungeons i find it funny how polar opposite people are on dungeon diffculty.. one half says they are brain dead easy the other half quit because they are too hard.. dungeons being too hard especially now you can't rez zerg the encounters is one of the most common complaints i see... yes you can beat them with 5 warriors but those 5 warriors would have to all really know their class which is how the dungeons were intended to be in the first place.. any combo of classes should be able to complete a dungeon as long as the group is skilled enough.

Yes and No.

Bringing the Trio back / making those builds necessary would serve to make people experiment with builds that work well together. On the other hand it will bring us back to predjudices like "Necros and eles can't tank" or  "Guardian and ele you heal" and parties will be far more picky.

It's nice but I think it would just serve them better to introduce boss mechanics beyond "have more hitpoints" and "spawn more dudes". Fights aren't hard enough in GW2, they are just long.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Please lord, let us have another game that understands additional roles, some day.

Tank, healer, dps is all right, but so limiting. I'm sure if you asked gamers, we may remember a few other roles...

OTOH, too many roles and pugs do get confused..

The op could only conceive of two possible outcomes, it seems.

Most games also roll up controller, AoE, buffer, debuffer, etc into the trinity.  It hasn't been a pure trinity for awhile.

But yes, I do support the trinity,  it works, and I haven't seen an alternative option so far that I cared for.