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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is Microsoft endangering the Longevity of MMO?

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83 posts found
  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

2/11/13 7:41:19 PM#61
I develop software on a Lenovo yoga, and have my desktop of for gaming - not as far off as you think :)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  SuperNick

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 349

2/11/13 7:52:08 PM#62

The PC market is picking up and will continue to enjoy growth again.

The next wave of consoles have already been confirmed as no real tech advance, which means you'll just be getting more of the same, leading people to question if they should return to PC. Couple this with how expensive games are becoming to make, the whole "platform exclusive" titles coming to an end and you got a decline in consoles overall.

Secondly, Microsoft have never been an MMO company really. They've dabbled in a few projects and even published a few but it's not an arena they've really ever entered into seriously.

And lastly, well, MMOs have always been PC Windows first and on the whole, PC Windows only. They've never really catered to consoles nor alternative operating systems - so nothing is really in danger because there's nothing to lose. MMOs simply don't work that great on consoles and the % of people using alternative operating systems is incredibly small.

 

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5029

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/11/13 8:03:44 PM#63
Originally posted by Kabaal

Mac users make up less than 10% of the market and Linux less than 5%, the rest is Windows. Games are mass market conveyer belt money makers, they make them for the platform that makes the most money and that is windows by a huge margin.

 

not sure if thats accurate since you dont provide the evidence ofr it, but... i think (at least when it comes to gaming) people stick to windows because theres no support for the other OS out there. Im sure as hell if there was more support for linux (and mac) for gaming windows gaming would decline in huge amounts.

The way i see it is, gamers that prefer linux or mac are waiting for companies to add support to them while the companies are waiting for the gamers to switch and then add support if theres enough of them.

Who is going to make the first move? I think gamers are making the first move for a while now but apparently only steam notices it and is doing something about it.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13107

2/11/13 8:09:20 PM#64
Originally posted by SuperNick

The PC market is picking up and will continue to enjoy growth again.

The next wave of consoles have already been confirmed as no real tech advance, which means you'll just be getting more of the same, leading people to question if they should return to PC. Couple this with how expensive games are becoming to make, the whole "platform exclusive" titles coming to an end and you got a decline in consoles overall.

Secondly, Microsoft have never been an MMO company really. They've dabbled in a few projects and even published a few but it's not an arena they've really ever entered into seriously.

And lastly, well, MMOs have always been PC Windows first and on the whole, PC Windows only. They've never really catered to consoles nor alternative operating systems - so nothing is really in danger because there's nothing to lose. MMOs simply don't work that great on consoles and the % of people using alternative operating systems is incredibly small.

Microsoft has long taken the stance that if you properly pay for a license, try very hard to make whatever you want run.  And they're actually very good at that, which is precisely why Windows has been the dominant OS for so long.  While Microsoft doesn't make MMORPGs directly, they do very much want them to run as well as possible on Windows.

  Akumawraith

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 165

Why is it said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Is there a shortage of bad ones?

2/12/13 3:58:51 AM#65

Quizzical :(excerpt)
"The drop in PC sales is entirely attributable to people keeping old PCs for longer than they used to.  The desktop I built in 2009 is still very nice today.  Indeed, it works better today than any previous computer I had did the day I bought it.  Laptops are very close to being good enough that you can buy one and keep it for a long time without missing out on much, too; Intel Haswell and AMD Kabini will provide that for some market share segments later this year, and AMD Kaveri might clean up most of the rest around the end of the year."

Though there is evidence that supports this the real answer to the drop in PC sales is that more and more people are building thier own PC's. Take into account a recent poll done by Chris Roberts company Roberts Space Industries (RSI) in the Star Citizen pages:


Game Machine –

    90% Desktop
    10% Laptop

Manufacturer –

    82% self made
    Asus next highest at just under 5%


This isnt a confusing answer the numbers pretty much speak for them selves. And to be more specific; The answers were given by the same players who donated nearly 7.5 million dollars to the project.


Novusod:
"No empire lasts forever and that will prove true to Windows as well. It is very likely that Microsoft is in its twilight years. The only benefit Microsoft has is years of lock in legacy systems especially at the corporate level. Microsoft Office used to be one of the big tie downs but with OpenOffice and Google Documents that is no longer really true anymore. The Microsoft internet explorer and Microsoft Outlook lost market dominence years ago. With lack luster appeal for Windows 8 the entire Microsoft empire is uniquely vulnerable."


This is true about no empire lasting forever, however this isnt poilitics it is business. And just to make a point: Neither Google nor Mozilla can match the marketting techniques that Microsoft used to kick off thier OS.
 

Think about it... Back around the time the wheel was invented.. there was this geek named Steve Gates (yes pun intended). This geek had a brilliant idea.. it was both quite underhanded and pure freakin genius at the same time. Steal the meat and potatoes Dos program, hook into his package and then market it as if it were the second coming. in areas where there were poverty levels he gave it away for free. the man flooded the market. Sure he was an idiot who witheld the access people needed to secure thier systems from hackers.. Linux won in that area, however the true gem of Microsoft Windows is ease of use. It is hard to top that.

I know there are many who use mobiles, Pads, and notebooks to do things on the internet, but there is a limit to what they can do when compared to the power available to a PC. Upgradeability, Power, Longevity, and Security. Cel phones can be tapped, Note books cant be heavily upgraded.. most of its parts are intergrated. and because PC's sit in one place usually and are usually not dropped they tend to last longer. So making OS for a PC to be also used on the haldhelds is pointless.

its a vanity issue. whos **** is bigger.... ego. who spent more.. all i can say is I have stuck with a PC. I refuse to pay for another piece of technology that doesnt do what i need it to which is give me access to high performance games with no limitations.

Social media? all the social media outlets are available for pc as well as all the other hand helds. however i dont have to strain my eyes reading whats out there. I dont have to aim  for buttons on my cel that are 1/4 the size of my fingertip and crowded way too closely together.

Streaming videos... my PC has a 24 inch wides screen monitor.. it works fine for me. I tried watching shows on my laptop and realized i was spoiled. I didnt go out and buy a gaming grade laptop for my schooling or business. what was the point? I need it to do specific things. now can it stream videos? sure but its not as clear nor do i have to power to maintain a 2-3 hour movies on it anymore due to the battery being such a sucky design. oh btw the one in question is one i got from MSi.. but that was a few years ago.

Anyway back to the point. PC's will always be able to do more than any other platform. This whole idea of trying to get the smaller devices to do what PCs can do is great but fruitless as PCs can always be upgraded and most of your social tools cant be.

Oh and to those who think MMos will hit the consoles and hand helds.. dream on. You may get some of the older titles that have been designed to work on the consoles. However there is always the case of this:

All consoles from the day they are released are out of date by at least 5 years technology wise. Same goes for any of your hand helds. They can only be built with the design in mind. once it leves the design phase they dont make many changes before full release. its the way of the beast.. Time never works in thier favor.

Case in point: Battlefield 3.

It was designed in two versions, PC and Console. PC version was designed with DX11 in mind. However the console version was still in DX9c because the consoles werent up to date technologically. This will always happen considering the companies that design and market the consoles cant keep producing them monthly or even yearly, and if they make them where they can have thier hardware upgraded  as often as it needs it would be just as well to get a PC...

Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT

Playing: WoT and anything else to break the boredom until something better comes out.

Tired of: Linear Quest games, Dailies, and Dumbed down games

Anticipating:Star Citizen,Citadel of Sorcery

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1255

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

2/12/13 5:23:39 AM#66
Yes, for the thousandth time, someone needs to make a "game station" out of a computer but leave it a computer and don't make it into a stupid game station.  Secretaries need to move out of the way for gamers.  Someone in the PC making business needs to get smart enough to realise this:  it would sell.
  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

2/12/13 7:55:50 AM#67
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by BadSpock

I hope one day to have a tablet that does everything I need a computer to do - ever - except play games. Real games.

And to play real games, I'll have a 2nd box. Don't really care if it's with a monitor on a desk or on a TV from my couch.

Not going to happen unless you don't need your computer to do very much.  For many tasks, a real keyboard, a real mouse, and a large monitor (or multiple monitors) are huge advantages.  The tablet form factor says you can't have any of that.

A tablet with a separate keyboard (e.g., Microsoft Surface) is better thought of as a detachable than a pure tablet.  Those may someday mostly replace laptops, but they're not going to replace desktops for the same reasons that laptops can't.

I can plug a monitor into my tablet with HDMI. Today.

I can use bluetooth keyboard and mouse with my tablet. Today.

Now give it a couple more years, and all the power of that core i5 and RAM etc. etc. in the Surface Pro is going to be available in a tablet that doesn't cost 1,000$ and doesn't have a 4 hour battery life lol.

Only applications you will ever NEED more power than that are if you are a graphic designer or engineer etc. but they've needed custom high-end hardware forever, that hasn't changed and will never change.

But today 99% of work done in the workplace could probably be done with a powerful tablet or ultrabook. Trust me, I see it every day more and more clients are leaving their laptops plugged into their docking stations and powered off and doing everything on a tablet. Only clients we have that still buy desktops are A) people doing high end graphical/design work and B) those who want something as cheap as possible and C) those who don't WANT their employees able to work remotely/mobile.

In a couple of years we'll probably have that kind of power in the 500$ 11-14 hour battery life tablets too.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

2/12/13 8:04:04 AM#68

As I mentioned earlier I have a Yoga, 8gb memory,i7, ultrabook spec, 256 ssd, 6 hours avg life and I use it probably 70% coding in laptop mode with touch,  and 30% tablet.  Its a pretty slick business and social machine and shows what windows 8 offers (its the only maching that does it to date imo, pro is tablet first, others have dodgey mechanics for switching modes.  The only thing that is missing is the price drop, but its early days in the hybrid market.

http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/ideapad/yoga/yoga-13/

 

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1676

2/12/13 8:27:27 AM#69
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Do you think that all the focus of MMO on this single platform is a good idea.

...

Do you think Windows as we know it will still be as successful in a couple of years? I don't, most people seem to be happy with their Apple computers, their Ubuntu in Asia, their tablet, their smartphone, their Kindle, their E-reader, whatever they're using to consume content, many of those people can afford an expensive gaming PC but they just don't want one.

You think it's good to focus on this single platform that is getting a bit shakier by the year?

Yes, windows will be standard for looooong years to come. I'm listening to stories of doom to windows for years, decades even. Nothing have happened. All have miserably failed, linux, unix, apple os, ... and will stay that way. Not because in absolute windows is best but because it covers 92/93% of marked and it is NOT AT ALL THAT BAD.

  mikethk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/04/06
Posts: 108

2/12/13 8:36:41 AM#70

Other platforms dossent support the graphics as MS does...

 

MS are owning DirectX, and that is also why other platforms got a hard time...... Who wanna play Elder Scrolls on Open GL if it dossent support any of the graphic stuff?

 

MS got a nice card here, cause that is something you pay for, which is why Open GL will never be as huge as DirectX. . .

 

Im not sure what Apple is doing here, but im pretty sure you cant use DirectX on there platforms, at least you have to use some sort of "wine" application.....

 

Everything made on Linux,,,, Android included here, dossent support highend grpahics........ Steam have tried to make some of there games work for Linux prop... Open GL but i dotn think this has happend... YET. At least its going way more slow earlier believed.

  Montana-dr

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/09
Posts: 11

2/12/13 8:44:43 AM#71
I don't believe anyone will take microsoft's place in the next 10 years.
  clamo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 16

2/12/13 10:48:24 AM#72

I don't see Microsoft killing the MMO as they are really trying to kill PC gaming and force it to remain on the consol.

they are doing this because they think that piracy is hurtting sales and that most people will not try and bother to hack there consol to play pireted games.

I got news for them and other game manufactures.......they are wrong.......I got no plans on buying a next gen console this time around. got no job do the shit ecco and I am selling just about ALL my current games to keep my as alive. and I know others are doing the same thing as ebay has hunders of games posted.

BUT if you really wan't to know what is gona kill the MMO........then here me well.......the pour game development, Hi subscription prices and the assholes that treat other players on the MMO's like shit is what's gona kill them off.

  Aeonblades

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 1730

2/12/13 10:51:46 AM#73
Originally posted by clamo

I don't see Microsoft killing the MMO as they are really trying to kill PC gaming and force it to remain on the consol.

they are doing this because they think that piracy is hurtting sales and that most people will not try and bother to hack there consol to play pireted games.

I got news for them and other game manufactures.......they are wrong.......I got no plans on buying a next gen console this time around. got no job do the shit ecco and I am selling just about ALL my current games to keep my as alive. and I know others are doing the same thing as ebay has hunders of games posted.

BUT if you really wan't to know what is gona kill the MMO........then here me well.......the pour game development, Hi subscription prices and the assholes that treat other players on the MMO's like shit is what's gona kill them off.

High subscription prices? I'm sorry but that's just flat out wrong. A majority of games have a F2P option now even if they are limited, and 15 dollars a month isn't a high price even working minimum wage. Poor game developement and asshole communities? That I will agree on.

Currently Playing: ESO,FFXIV, various betas
Have played: You name it.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13107

2/12/13 1:12:33 PM#74
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by BadSpock

I hope one day to have a tablet that does everything I need a computer to do - ever - except play games. Real games.

And to play real games, I'll have a 2nd box. Don't really care if it's with a monitor on a desk or on a TV from my couch.

Not going to happen unless you don't need your computer to do very much.  For many tasks, a real keyboard, a real mouse, and a large monitor (or multiple monitors) are huge advantages.  The tablet form factor says you can't have any of that.

A tablet with a separate keyboard (e.g., Microsoft Surface) is better thought of as a detachable than a pure tablet.  Those may someday mostly replace laptops, but they're not going to replace desktops for the same reasons that laptops can't.

I can plug a monitor into my tablet with HDMI. Today.

I can use bluetooth keyboard and mouse with my tablet. Today.

Now give it a couple more years, and all the power of that core i5 and RAM etc. etc. in the Surface Pro is going to be available in a tablet that doesn't cost 1,000$ and doesn't have a 4 hour battery life lol.

Only applications you will ever NEED more power than that are if you are a graphic designer or engineer etc. but they've needed custom high-end hardware forever, that hasn't changed and will never change.

But today 99% of work done in the workplace could probably be done with a powerful tablet or ultrabook. Trust me, I see it every day more and more clients are leaving their laptops plugged into their docking stations and powered off and doing everything on a tablet. Only clients we have that still buy desktops are A) people doing high end graphical/design work and B) those who want something as cheap as possible and C) those who don't WANT their employees able to work remotely/mobile.

In a couple of years we'll probably have that kind of power in the 500$ 11-14 hour battery life tablets too.

Yes, most business work can be done on an ultrabook.  But much of it could be done without use of a computer at all, by reverting to paper records of everything.  "Can be done" is a long, long way from "can be done efficiently".  And ultrabooks are dreadful at that unless you've got some peculiar use where thinness is extremely important.  You can make a laptop much better in nearly every way (cheaper, faster, more reliable, etc.) by adding a few millimeters to the thickness as compared to what the ultrabook specification allows.

The commercial failure of ultrabooks is actually encouraging, as it demonstrates that there are limits to what slick marketing campaigns can do for awful products.  Marketing often convinces people to overpay for inferior products, but it can only do so much.  The Edsel is probably the most famous example of this, but the ultrabook might join it someday.

  Quizzical

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2/12/13 1:18:46 PM#75
Originally posted by Bladestrom

As I mentioned earlier I have a Yoga, 8gb memory,i7, ultrabook spec, 256 ssd, 6 hours avg life and I use it probably 70% coding in laptop mode with touch,  and 30% tablet.  Its a pretty slick business and social machine and shows what windows 8 offers (its the only maching that does it to date imo, pro is tablet first, others have dodgey mechanics for switching modes.  The only thing that is missing is the price drop, but its early days in the hybrid market.

http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/ideapad/yoga/yoga-13/

The Lenovo Yoga might well be the best convertible on the market, but I don't see much of a future for them.  You pay a large price premium for the option to switch between a mediocre laptop and an awful tablet.  There may be more of a future for detachables (such as the Microsoft Surface Pro), which are also mediocre laptops, but at least could be very good tablets.  The Surface Pro isn't a good tablet, but that's because there isn't any good tablet hardware that can run Windows ready yet.  If the rumors that the Surface Pro 2 will run an AMD Temash chip are accurate, then we'll see what can really be done with a detachable.

But again, that will only replace laptops, not desktops.  Situations where it could have replaced desktops would have moved to laptops a long time ago.

As for the price drop, no, ultrabooks are always going to be expensive.  To get the price drop, you have to add a few millimeters to the thickness and use an AMD chip rather than Intel.  While that could make for a very nice ultraportable (at least after Kabini is out), either of those make it no longer an ultrabook by definition.

  Quizzical

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2/12/13 1:23:08 PM#76
Originally posted by mikethk

Other platforms dossent support the graphics as MS does...

 

MS are owning DirectX, and that is also why other platforms got a hard time...... Who wanna play Elder Scrolls on Open GL if it dossent support any of the graphic stuff?

 

MS got a nice card here, cause that is something you pay for, which is why Open GL will never be as huge as DirectX. . .

 

Im not sure what Apple is doing here, but im pretty sure you cant use DirectX on there platforms, at least you have to use some sort of "wine" application.....

 

Everything made on Linux,,,, Android included here, dossent support highend grpahics........ Steam have tried to make some of there games work for Linux prop... Open GL but i dotn think this has happend... YET. At least its going way more slow earlier believed.

OpenGL used to be bigger than DirectX, you know.  In tablets and cell phones, OpenGL ES (basically a gimpy version of OpenGL) is much bigger than DirectX.  It's entirely plausible that tablets will mostly move from OpenGL ES to the full OpenGL, too.

As for what OpenGL supports, can you name anything that DirectX 11.1 supports and OpenGL 4.3 doesn't?  There are a handful of such things, but nothing important.  OpenGL 4.3 added compute shaders, which was easily the most important thing that DirectX 11 had and OpenGL 4.2 didn't.  And compute shaders are so important that I'm not aware of a single game that uses them.

  MightyChasm

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Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/12/13 1:25:08 PM#77
I think having one dominant platform has probably made mmo's a hell of a lot better.  
  DracSchnider

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Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 36

2/12/13 1:26:33 PM#78
Windows will be around a long long time.  Pc's are not going anywhere.  Yes tablets will be up in sales as people start to have multi devices including phones.  but the desktops will alawys be there in some fashion.
  Quizzical

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2/12/13 1:26:43 PM#79
Originally posted by clamo

I don't see Microsoft killing the MMO as they are really trying to kill PC gaming and force it to remain on the consol.

they are doing this because they think that piracy is hurtting sales and that most people will not try and bother to hack there consol to play pireted games.

I got news for them and other game manufactures.......they are wrong.......I got no plans on buying a next gen console this time around. got no job do the shit ecco and I am selling just about ALL my current games to keep my as alive. and I know others are doing the same thing as ebay has hunders of games posted.

BUT if you really wan't to know what is gona kill the MMO........then here me well.......the pour game development, Hi subscription prices and the assholes that treat other players on the MMO's like shit is what's gona kill them off.

No, Microsoft is not trying to move gaming from PCs to consoles.  Microsoft offers both an open platform (Windows) and a closed platform (Xbox), with the idea that whatever game developers want, they can get it on a Microsoft platform.  Game developers choose one or the other (or both) for reasons of their own, and Microsoft doesn't try to force game developers to do things one way or another.  The economic reality that you need strong anti-piracy controls if you want to make money on a game but would rather not have Microsoft take a large cut of your revenue if you don't need their anti-piracy controls, on the other hand, does push game developers to prefer open or closed platforms, depending on the game they're making.

  User Deleted
2/12/13 1:36:57 PM#80

Developers can't build games for Linux until the ecosystem is ready for it.  That means quality first-party drivers, and a stable OS.  Right now, graphics drivers on Linux is a real mess for the gaming stuff.  As for the OS itself, the biggest problem is the fragmentation.  For a long time, it was looking like Ubuntu was really making some strides to creating a standard, reliable Linux distribution that was easy to use, and easy to setup.  It still is, but the recent shift of focus to the mobile industry means gaming and desktop experiences will take 2 steps back.

It's ironic, in a way.  If Ubuntu had just stuck with their plan, they'd have a very viable Linux OS ready for the rather large enterprise and consumer market that doesn't like where Windows is going (touch screens, tablets, mobile).  Instead, they are just doing the exact same thing as Microsoft...

For that reason, MMO's will continue to be primarily Windows experiences.  I do expect more MMO's to be developed for consoles, however.  At least in the first half of the next-gen cycle.

 

And to come full circle to the original question: I do believe Microsoft has killed the longevity of MMO's but not for any reason you mentioned.  It has to do with XBOX, and how the current console generation has dragged on for about 3 years too long.  Since games are being developed for them first, then ported to PC's, this has resulted in very little gaming innovation.  MMO's have been directly affected by this, since much of the technology behind them is "second-hand" tech passed down from other genres that are generally more innovative.  As a result, MMO's have been largely unchanged in the last 10 years, aside from graphics and payment models.

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