Originally posted by yaminsux
For me Neverwinter is more towards Lotro than DDO. DDO and nwn shares the same gameplay rules but that's about it.

This is not accurate at all DDO 3.5E ruleset, a homebrew one.  Neverwinter 4E ruleset, a homebrew one .  3.5E and 4E do not resemble each other at all.  They are totally different.

Both games play very different as well, in no way can you call Neverwinter an updated DDO and this has both advantages and disadvantages depending on your prefered playstyle.

And that's how they are confusing people..

You see Dungeons and Dragons in the name, and go "hey, I remember Dungeons and Dragons Online! This must be the new version!"

But in reality, its an alternative to the more traditional based D&D system in DDO and more arcade like (with less free flowing choices but a tighter more specific "tree" style growth)

To each his own, but this game is a stretch compared to what we've seen in terms of D&D mechanics we seen from DDO..

Yes the game is very much console or arcade like in gameplay. Also by giving us premade builds (they call them classes but they are builds) you can't gimp yourself no mattoer what options you do choose.

In case some don't know they don't give you a class  and then you build it like you want, they give you builds. 

Fighter is a class, then you can choose a build like "great weapon fighter" or "guardian fighter" depending on how you want to play or you can even make your own wierd flavor build. 

In 3.5e you can seriously gimp yourself if you don't know what you are doing but in 4E they balanced the game by limiting some things so you can't gimp yourself no matter what.

In Neverwinter they take this a step further and don't even allow you to choose fighter but give you great weapon fighter and guardian fighter. They have taken suggested builds and then call them "classes".

Originally posted by StanlyStanko
Can we call them Massively Multiplayer Online Medieval Fantasy Brawlers ?   MMOMFBs ???

You could but would that be an accurate representation of what they are and would that help fellow peeps that are not in beta have a better understanding of what is offered by the game?

"Is this game an updated DDO? "

No. It's a "Vindictus" with D&D skin + dungeon editor

Originally posted by Asm0deus

Yes the game is very much console or arcade like in gameplay. Also by giving us premade builds (they call them classes but they are builds) you can't gimp yourself no mattoer what options you do choose.

In case some don't know they don't give you a class  and then you build it like you want, they give you builds. 

Fighter is a class, then you can choose a build like "great weapon fighter" or "guardian fighter" depending on how you want to play or you can even make your own wierd flavor build. 

In 3.5e you can seriously gimp yourself if you don't know what you are doing but in 4E they balanced the game by limiting some things so you can't gimp yourself no matter what.

In Neverwinter they take this a step further and don't even allow you to choose fighter but give you great weapon fighter and guardian fighter. They have taken suggested builds and then call them "classes".

That to me is an immediate turn off; I enjoy the ability to create my own character, potential gimping and all. People like it when they take away the lows, but they tend to forget that also means taking away the highs as well.

Is it DDO 2.0? 

To me, the answer is no.

There is some rough similarity in over-all structure.  But that's really as far as it goes.  In a way its like saying that a Truck is Car 2.0 because they both have engines, 4 wheels, and places for you to sit.

DDO was an attempt to Emulate the D20 system, with a good amount of modification to accomodate the switch to an MMO.  Yes there were some fairly big changes to the system, but at its heart you could see, and still see the d20 roots of the game.

Neverwinter is more an action MMO that gave its self a DnD 4e coat of paint.  They took some inspiration from 4e in class names and ability names, but thats about as far as they went.  They have a ton more stats that aren't DnD, and while they set the game in neverwinter, they didn't try to create a city, so much as they created one hub corner of the city for players to be safe in, and then made the rest  places to just kill things.  

The developer made dungeons so far have been fairly standard MMO structure.  Granted, DDO's dungeons are fairly linear, but they tend to have a different feel to them from standard dungeon runs.   Foundry quests, otoh, have a bit more interesting things going on in them.  I'm curious to see how this pans out.

But, is it DDO 2.0?  The answer really is no.  There's too much different in execution to say that they share the same core inspiration.

It is just an MMO which tells a D&D story. It is not "based" or made from any D&D mechanics.

The mechanics are simulated to appear familliar but ina ctuality they are completely different. Though it may be a turn off for others, imo it is the right way to approach it. D&D centric players are too less to have a feasible MMO. Those who disagree may not have been in the empty world which DDO was before it was de-PnP-ised and it became popular.

They do have excellent lore and story though - which is satisfactory to me. It is more like a Salvatore's novel than a PnP or D&D based game.

A list of recommended builds in PnP 4e. Class customisation without PnP mechanics=not bad if all are implemented with time:-

Fighter:-
Great Weapon Fighter
Guardian Fighter
Battle Rager Fighter
Tempest Fighter
Brawling Figter



Cleric:-
Devoted Cleric
Battle Cleric
Shielding Cleric

Rogue:-
Trickster Rogue
Brawny Rogue
Shadowy Rogue
Aerialist Rogue
Cutthroat Rogue

Paladin:-
Virtuous Paladin
Ardent Paladin
Protecting Paladin
Avenging Paladin

Ranger:-
Two Bladed Ranger
Archer Ranger
Hunter Ranger
Beastmaster Ranger
Marauder Ranger

Warlock:-
Scourge Warlock
Deceptive Warlock

Swordmage:-
Ensnaring Swordmage
Assault Swordmage
Shielding Swordmage

Wizard:-
Control Wizard
Summoner Wizard
War Wizard
Illusionist Wizard

Avenger:-
Commanding Avenger
Pursuing Avenger
Isolating Avenger

Barbarian:-
Whirling Barbarian
Rageblood Barbarian
Thaneborn Barbarian
Thunderborn Barbarian

Bard:-
Valorous Bard
Cunning Bard
Prescient Bard

Sorcerer:-
Dragon Sorcerer
Storm Sorcerer
Chaos Sorcerer
Cosmic Sorcerer

Monk:-
Iron Soul Monk
Center Breathed Monk
Stone Fist Monk

Psion:-
Telepathic Psion
Telekinetic Psion
Shaper Psion

Druid:-
Guardian druid
Swarm Druid
Predator Druid

Invoker:-
Wrathful Invoker
Preserving Invoker
Malediction Invoker

Warlord:-
Skirmishing Warlord
Insightful Warlord
Tactical Warlord
Resourceful Warlord
Bravura Warlord
Inspiring Warlord

Shaman:-
World Speaker Shaman
Eagle Shaman
Bear Shaman
Panther Shaman

Warden:-
Wild Warden
Life Warden
Earth Warden
Storm Warden

Ardent:-
Enlightened Ardent
Impetuous Ardent
Euphoric Ardent

Battlemind:-
Quick Battlemind
Resilient Battlemind
Harrier Battlemind

Runepriest:-
Wrathful Runepriest
Defiant Runepriest

Seeker:-
Protecting Seeker
Wrathful Seeker

Swordmage:-
Assault Swordmage
Shielding Swordmage
Ensnaring Swordmage

More Builds from Fey, Astral and Shadow sources not included here (e.g. assassin, vampires, necromancer, shadowmancer, Blackguard etc)

One of the things I disliked about DDO was how they handled the illusion of choice. I could, theoretically, choose to play a sword and shield defender paladin in DDO, but it didn't fit into the mantra of how leveling worked in the game, namely "launch yourself at them and kill things as fast as possible." Since almost everyone that was leveling at that point was doing so as an alt or a true reincarnation, they wanted to do everything as quickly and efficiently as possible, which ended up trivializing the game to me. 

Up until a certain point I was able to just solo things with a healer hirling, but eventually you are forced to group for content to level up at which point the game just becomes a forced grind and stops being a game.

Neverwinter, on the other hand, has stated they have solo content as well as group content, plus the foundry and eventually PvP to come after launch. Classes are also more carefully designed. While that leads to less technical freedom to do what you want with your character, each decision has value to it rather than there being a "right" way to play and a "wrong" way to play. 

Originally posted by StMichael

One of the things I disliked about DDO was how they handled the illusion of choice. I could, theoretically, choose to play a sword and shield defender paladin in DDO, but it didn't fit into the mantra of how leveling worked in the game, namely "launch yourself at them and kill things as fast as possible." Since almost everyone that was leveling at that point was doing so as an alt or a true reincarnation, they wanted to do everything as quickly and efficiently as possible, which ended up trivializing the game to me. 

 

Up until a certain point I was able to just solo things with a healer hirling, but eventually you are forced to group for content to level up at which point the game just becomes a forced grind and stops being a game.

 

Neverwinter, on the other hand, has stated they have solo content as well as group content, plus the foundry and eventually PvP to come after launch. Classes are also more carefully designed. While that leads to less technical freedom to do what you want with your character, each decision has value to it rather than there being a "right" way to play and a "wrong" way to play. 

DDO should not be played with PUG's to be honest. Play it with a group of like minded friends, much like a real D&D session. Then you will find the game to be one of the finest group expirences out there.

Originally posted by StMichael

 Since almost everyone that was leveling at that point was doing so as an alt or a true reincarnation, they wanted to do everything as quickly and efficiently as possible, which ended up trivializing the game to me. 

This seems to be the biggest problem you were having, and is not unique to DDO. Most MMOs I've tried have ended up trivializing a lot of builds over time as more and more content becomes a speed bump to the majority of existing players. Solo content can alleviate and postpone this to some degree, but comes with a fair numbers of issues of its own. The only thing that will truly break this cycle in Neverwinter is if the foundry system actually takes off; otherwise, you'll be hearing the same complaints a year or two from now about Neverwinter as well.

Originally posted by StMichael

One of the things I disliked about DDO was how they handled the illusion of choice. I could, theoretically, choose to play a sword and shield defender paladin in DDO, but it didn't fit into the mantra of how leveling worked in the game, namely "launch yourself at them and kill things as fast as possible." Since almost everyone that was leveling at that point was doing so as an alt or a true reincarnation, they wanted to do everything as quickly and efficiently as possible, which ended up trivializing the game to me. 

 

Up until a certain point I was able to just solo things with a healer hirling, but eventually you are forced to group for content to level up at which point the game just becomes a forced grind and stops being a game.

 

Neverwinter, on the other hand, has stated they have solo content as well as group content, plus the foundry and eventually PvP to come after launch. Classes are also more carefully designed. While that leads to less technical freedom to do what you want with your character, each decision has value to it rather than there being a "right" way to play and a "wrong" way to play. 

I can't agree more. DDO kinda felt like they threw a lot of DnD options in there just for the sake of throwing them in there. Definitely felt like they were giving the illusion of tons of choice and customization when really there were just a shit load of ways to gimp yourself.

Originally posted by Cothor
A few central player hubs with a bunch of dungeons to group up and do? I'm looking over the website and it is trying to positively hype itself so much it is not really saying what the game is

No, Neverwinter Online is Open World + instances, you can wander around cities and wilderness and areas seeing other people, interacting with them, and if you like you can go in instanced quest. 

The problem with NWO is that has nothing to do with the great customization of the character found in DDO. No multiclass, no feat/talents, only a generic skill tree like WoW/Rift, no generic equipment (equipment is tied to a class, so for example you can't do a cleric with swords wearing heavy armor, you will find equipment with "class required: devoted cleric"), active abilities unlocked automatically (you have only to decide what put in quickbar, you have limited slots), the combat feels very "clunky" and very few action, lot of skill root the character in place, collision detect is not very precise, character have auto-face to the target, and so on...

NWO is a generic wow-clone with a combat a bit more dynamic and a D&D lore

Originally posted by jedensuscg

Neverwinter is a simple, action MMO, with a very basic combat system that is still fun, but a little repetetive. It looks amazing(don't know why the gameplay videos always made it look like crap, the graphics are pretty stunning)

Where the game shines however, and I think the only way it will stand on its own two feet in the long term, is through the foundry.

With that being said, any player looking for a replacement for WoW, or Rift, or DDO, or LOTRO, or Tera, or whatever MMO you play, will be COMPLETELY unsatisifed.  Why? Those games tend to attract players less concerned with story(hence they blow through all content and get to max level asap) and need more actual tangible content.  Neverwinter, as of this beta, is lacking in that content.  Sure there is offficial content, quests, and some stuff, but nothing to compensate for the repetative gameplay.

Uhh, please don't speak for everyone.  WoW is repetitive, Tera is repetitive. I absolutely loved the combat in this game, I wouldn't call this combat system basic in terms of MMO's. GW2 of the most popular MMO's probably has the most in depth, but saying Neverwinters combat is basic seems alil misleading. Unless your opinion on combat depth is the amount of skills you can use at one time.

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Originally posted by jedensuscg

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Originally posted by jedensuscg

And sadly, the main reason, is that I think cryptic is relying so much more on the foundry in this game, that they are neglecting official content alot.  I think cryptic can do alot though to make foundry content the meat and potatoes of the game.  They need a more robust peer review system of course.  They should also think about taking the best created content and incorporating into the game outside the foundry.  Say, a particular foundry quest  in a zone gets rave reviews over the course of a week. For the next week, that quest will be available to anyone who runs through that zone, as a quest icon on the mini map just like the official content is.

I think that in this case, a heavy reliance on foundry is probably wise, because it allows individual players to play, to at least some extent, their own version of FR while providing a steady stream of dungeons in a way that the devs could never do on their own. Also, individual creation is at the heart of the D&D experience, and the foundry system will be the key to unlocking this particular aspect of the PnP game, which is the one area that DDO really truly fell flat. If the foundry system succeeds, the game as a whole will do just fine; if it doesn't, the game will fall flat on it's face. The fact that the devs seem to understand this and seem to be putting a large number of resources into it is a good sign, but only time will tell if it works or not.

I agree with you, however, this also hinges on Cryptic putting that focus on the foundry. Just having the foundry available is not enough. It needs strong integegration with the game, so that even players that don't actively look for foundry quests, will still be exposed to the better ones through there normal gameplay.

That is just one of the many details that Cryptic will have to iron out; other games have had foundry like systems, but I have yet to see one that is widely utilized consistently by the majority of the players, so it will be interesting to see how they do with this one.

I believe from when you went to the hub screen or whatever it is, I think it was the O hotkey in game it pretty much has events and shit that pop up, I can't remember if its already in the game or not but even if it isn't they could just easily put in another tab showing off the hottest foundry level of the week or whatever.