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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Telegraphing...Why is this a trend?

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56 posts found
  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

2/10/13 2:31:35 PM#21
Originally posted by Ranyr

How is this a "new trend' it's been happening since the NES. Anyone play Punch Out? It had telegraphs. If you didn't avoid some of the boxers moves, you got OHKO'd.

So as for the guy that made the boxing analogy, there are telegraphs in real life boxing as well: shifting weight, eye movement, etc.

I like telegraphs, it means that if I don't get out of it that I'm bad and need to pay attention to more things. If I'm standing somewhere and the boss just instantly oneshots me for no reason then how does that make it more challenging or fun at all? It doesn't.

 

Funny you mention NES Punch Out, I was thinking about the exact same game.

In that game the indicator to dodge was much more subtle.  The fighter would blink or twitch strangely.  The game would not flash a big "MOVE" message on the screen though.  I think that's the distinction the OP is trying to make.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  hraeth

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/07
Posts: 34

2/10/13 2:34:23 PM#22

It is not dumbed down, it is simply a different gameplay that relies on reaction of the player. In a game it is hard to see and react to "realistic" indicators such as muscles movement, eye movemetn, etc, that you would use to judge your opponents move in real life, thus more simplistic indicators such as red circles have to be introduced.

This.  I view the indicators as an improvement in combat that allows me to react to things that you just can't really quite bring to the video gaming screen that would be there in real life.  In games without these indicators you wipe and then spend time figuring out ok why did that happen, did we get a debuff, did someone stand in the fire, etc... and then retry until you have the fight memorized and can complete it that way.  For some situations (like where the mob is going to swing his club) the little red indicators make sense.  For others, like where magical fire is going to appear, they make less sense.  I'd most like to see idicators used for things that must at all costs be avoided (like a club swing that will 1 shot you) and also NOT used for things where you need to move after the fact (like fire).  The real art in all of this is to figure out when to use the indicators and how much warning to give.  Too much is boring, too little frustrating.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

2/10/13 2:35:21 PM#23
Originally posted by Malevil
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

The same way a real-life boxer can avoid a blow. He doesn't get some arrow warning on which way to dodge or where not to stand. He has watch everything to predict a blow, e.g., watching for shoulder movement, foot and balance movement, etc.

Playing a video game is same as boxing in real life?

some ppl aparently think it is :D and it would be realy funny to find out what percentage of ppl are able to block or avoid punch in real life :D

I was a muay thai fighter for years.  Count me in.  Can you?

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

2/10/13 2:38:25 PM#24

What's the alternative to this? Talking on ventrillo or some other voice chatting service. Just think of how much hassle this removes when doing boss fights for the first and subsequent times. You now have a reason to get mad at people who don't follow directions because it's quite literally shown that the person died and it was their fault. I really like this idea, explaining boss fights and mobs just got intuitive. Instead of trying to explain what skills do, you can tell people, "Don't stand in the red areas. You will get hit if you do."

 

Edit: I'm wondering if games will allow players to turn off this functionality or change it to something less identifiable. I've seen in games where they use visual cues like shadows on the ground for falling objects, or wind-up for large attacks.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
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  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12386

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

2/10/13 3:04:59 PM#25
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Crunchy222

So i was looking at some videos of some upcomming games.  Both have "action" combat vs tab target.

Everything looked interesting with both of them untill i saw a boass fight.

On the ground they draw a red shape based on where the bosses next attack will damage...

It is not dumbed down, it is simply a different gameplay that relies on reaction of the player. In a game it is hard to see and react to "realistic" indicators such as muscles movement, eye movemetn, etc, that you would use to judge your opponents move in real life, thus more simplistic indicators such as red circles have to be introduced.

One person used a boxing match as a comparison, but in a boxing match you have only one opponent, limited attack types and - unless there's some new skill boxers have - no AoE spells. In a boss or major encounter, there is usually too much going on to be able to look for eye movements or arm twitches here and there. Also, most AoE aren't simply raidal effects but hit in certain locations over a greater area. This allows players to know where the safe zones are between the damage areas, something that would otherwise not be evident at all.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

2/11/13 8:44:28 PM#26
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Malevil
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

The same way a real-life boxer can avoid a blow. He doesn't get some arrow warning on which way to dodge or where not to stand. He has watch everything to predict a blow, e.g., watching for shoulder movement, foot and balance movement, etc.

Playing a video game is same as boxing in real life?

some ppl aparently think it is :D and it would be realy funny to find out what percentage of ppl are able to block or avoid punch in real life :D

I was a muay thai fighter for years.  Count me in.  Can you?

Dave not withstanding, i bet even lower in percentage than those who raid Sunwell when it was the latest content.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19148

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/11/13 9:35:06 PM#27
Meh, in either case it's really just learning the dance moves, one is just a bit more difficult, but not really any more interesting. At the end of the day, you are just there for the gear.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

2/11/13 9:39:33 PM#28
Originally posted by Kyleran
Meh, in either case it's really just learning the dance moves, one is just a bit more difficult, but not really any more interesting. At the end of the day, you are just there for the gear.

It makes the boss fights far more interesting the first few run. Given that people quit after after a few week - a month, it matters.

  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 401

2/11/13 9:48:35 PM#29

I can't say MMOs are really that hard to play in general anyway, so this makes no odds to me, to say I wouldn't play it because mobs have red circles they put down before a deathblow skill would potentially be not playing a really awesome game! I've raided in just about every game that had raids, often with hardcore 5-6 day a week guilds.

You need a method of 'telling' the players what is gonna happen next if you're gonna make your combat this action-based. Otherwise it's literally just you guessing the upcoming skills (AKA DIablo 3) which really removes any skill required and introduces luck instead. Sure GW2 attempted to do this with monsters charging up abilities, giving warnings and so on but honestly that system never really worked out as they intended.

The other alternative is don't have an action system, have a boring bog-standard roll system - I hit you, you hit me and so on.

I prefer the first one.

  Krytycal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 527

2/11/13 9:48:59 PM#30

Personally I think they should have us take the GRE before entering a dungeon and the loot you get should be based on your score. Stop dumbing down games.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

2/11/13 9:56:18 PM#31
Originally posted by SuperNick

(...)

You need a method of 'telling' the players what is gonna happen next if you're gonna make your combat this action-based. (...)

Sure and should be told through well-done boss animation, not red circles on the ground. 

 

This doesn't mean that the boss should necessarely do a "charging " animation. For instance, the boss could quickly throw fire into the air, but then it takes a while before the fire hits the ground and thus gives you time to react.

  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 401

2/11/13 10:00:41 PM#32
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by SuperNick

(...)

You need a method of 'telling' the players what is gonna happen next if you're gonna make your combat this action-based. (...)

Sure and should be told through well-done boss animation, not red circles on the ground. 

You kinda took the rest of what I said out of context - I went on to say GW2 tried this and failed at it. It's a pretty complicated task to give hundreds of different monsters a specific animation or multiple animations for that fact, you can tell they had started to do this in early levels where mobs did have various animations. Later on though it literally just became the same single animation, which in my mind is no different than a big red circle on the floor. "Oh the mob is glowing white and is doing a charge-up animation, move left"

Sure, it's a nice proposition to give hundreds of models multiple animations but a) it's hugely resource consuming, not to mention when new mobs are added and b) eventually you will just know the tells instinctively anyway thus turning it back into a big red circle for you anyway.

If they choose to make the combat more reaction/timing based than "circle = move within 5 seconds" then it'll be great. I think twitch gaming and decision making is something we don't get enough of in MMOs these days.

EDIT: For bosses, yeah, I agree, they could muster up resources for multiple 'telling animations'  to make it a bit more challenging. And they might just do that :) - Red circles for mobs, boss animations for tells.

  URMAKER

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/05
Posts: 653

2/11/13 10:02:42 PM#33
it's pretty much been "some circles will appear randonmly don't stand in them they hurt" for awhile now...meh pretty much the same thing.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4766

2/11/13 10:08:58 PM#34

You can thank the masses for this 'trend'. The more popular something is, the lower the average IQ of it's interest base. MMOs need a large group of peopel to survive, hence.. you can do the math.

The trend isn't even all that new. We had this in SWTOR, TSW, GW2, All the Super Hero MMOs. People want more challenging content, but if it's difficult to the point of requiring thought, people complain that its 'unfair'.

I'd love to see more difficult MMOs, but unless MMOs can start being made without a massive budget, I just don't see that happening.

  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 401

2/11/13 10:15:22 PM#35
Originally posted by aesperus

You can thank the masses for this 'trend'. The more popular something is, the lower the average IQ of it's interest base. MMOs need a large group of peopel to survive, hence.. you can do the math.

The trend isn't even all that new. We had this in SWTOR, TSW, GW2, All the Super Hero MMOs. People want more challenging content, but if it's difficult to the point of requiring thought, people complain that its 'unfair'.

I'd love to see more difficult MMOs, but unless MMOs can start being made without a massive budget, I just don't see that happening.

Have MMOs ever been difficult though? Sure, the early days of Asheron's Call were tough but no one had a clue how to build and the skill system was incredibly broken; once people figured out the overpowered skills it was over.

The SWG krayt dragons were very tough but there were huge threat issues in that game.

Classic 40 man WoW raids are supposed to be some of the toughest raids in MMO history but frankly the threat generation system was screwed, the healing system was a mess and classes were unbalnced to the point of entire specs being horrendously broken. The mechanics infact were very easy and in hindsight we had a LOT of players who had no idea what they were doing.

And lastly yeah, I guess you could say levelling in Dark Age of Camelot was very tough but that was generally due to a broken questing system which pointed you often in the wrong direction, alongside an aggro system that meant 20 mobs would suddenly come running your way.

See what i'm getting at here? We look at tough times in MMO history as tough because the game was generally a mess, one that we loved but still, had some glaring issues we chose to ignore or didn't know any better.

  Wraithone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

2/11/13 10:22:57 PM#36
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

Everything is dumbed down now.

First heard the day after they expanded the size of the original Pong paddle.

LOL!  I remember that... ^^  It seems that way too many people forget that this is supposed to be about fun, and entertainment. Not a second job, or some alternate reality.

Sure, they could program bosses to pick some random abilties and string them together in various random fashions.  While that might be "challenging" to some, it wouldn't be *fun* or entertaining to many others. 

The boss just dipped their right shoulder! Does that mean an aoe fireball spread, a charge at the casters/healer, or a tail whip spin?... Multiple this by any number of such patterns, and you understand one of the reasons for telegraphing.

Look at the various mods in use for raiding in WoW.  Would there be nearly as much supply of such, if there wasn't a great deal of demand?  Why the great demand? Because many people get information overload in a stress environment.  Not everyone can handle that input in an effective fashion in real time.

What really gets entertaining is how complex telegraphing could get, with intersecting colors and shapes on the ground and later in the air.  But thats a topic for another time.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3418

2/11/13 10:23:12 PM#37


Originally posted by Rossboss
What's the alternative to this? Talking on ventrillo or some other voice chatting service. Just think of how much hassle this removes when doing boss fights for the first and subsequent times. You now have a reason to get mad at people who don't follow directions because it's quite literally shown that the person died and it was their fault. I really like this idea, explaining boss fights and mobs just got intuitive. Instead of trying to explain what skills do, you can tell people, "Don't stand in the red areas. You will get hit if you do."

 

Edit: I'm wondering if games will allow players to turn off this functionality or change it to something less identifiable. I've seen in games where they use visual cues like shadows on the ground for falling objects, or wind-up for large attacks.


When I used to raid in EQ, a few years ago, there was a log parser utility called EQ Companion, which would just read your log file (a big text file), and put up big huge alert text and warning sounds if it encountered certain triggers.

Later on, EQ incorporated this feature into the game - allowing audio files to be played (but I don't think it would flash text messages). But you still had to manually set it up - no text triggers were included by default.

So you could try to read through many different windows of chat text scrolling for certain textual queues (nearly every trigger in EQ was text-based and send either by emote or /say/shout/yell/etc), or you could set up a trigger and just make it play some sound or provide some other audible/visual method of alerting you.

I had mixed feelings about it then, and I still do today - this is essentially the same thing as the "big red circle" we're talking about here. There were a few people who genuinely didn't need the tool - either they had their UI set up well enough it didn't provide anything or they could just read several different chat windows simultaneously. There were not many of these people - maybe 5% of the players I ever raided with. Nearly every one else, though, it would improve their raid performance (and by that, I mean missing fewer triggers) - it didn't perform the action for them, but it helped to bring their attention around when they needed it.

It was a tool, and it was totally optional to use. For that reason, I tolerated it. I admit to using it for some things, but not every single situation. I was not in the 5%, but I was stubborn and looked upon it as a crutch - and still do to some extent, but there was no denying that it helped us beat encounters faster. I don't think that it allowed us to beat any encounters we weren't going to beat eventually anyway (at least taking away the fact that some people leave due to frustration/grass-is-greener/other reasons guilds tend to implode when they hit something moderately difficult to overcome).

  Wraithone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

2/11/13 10:31:30 PM#38
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

The same way a real-life boxer can avoid a blow. He doesn't get some arrow warning on which way to dodge or where not to stand. He has watch everything to predict a blow, e.g., watching for shoulder movement, foot and balance movement, etc.

Playing a video game is same as boxing in real life?

Thats one of the problems.  Some people forget that not everyone can deal with the information overlord that happens in a stressful situation.  Tunnel vision is just one of the problems. Judgement, fine motor skills, and focus are also impacted.

Many people take these games WAY too seriously. Their self image gets tangled up in their achievements within the games they play.  Thats dangerous in many ways.

  Wraithone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

2/11/13 10:39:10 PM#39
Originally posted by Kyleran
Meh, in either case it's really just learning the dance moves, one is just a bit more difficult, but not really any more interesting. At the end of the day, you are just there for the gear.

Well stated.  Thats exactly the motivation (carrot) for the vast majority of people involved.  Even after the AI driving these encounters gets much more complex, its still a matter of learning the patterns and branch points.  But like many such experiences, not everyone will be willing (or able) to enjoy such.

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3491

2/11/13 10:39:32 PM#40
Love all the game trash talk, WOOT, ya good old day! What are developers thinking pushing the boundries of MMOs? I was a EQ1 raider. Boss fights had 1-2 things you had to watch for. Games like wildstar are adding a level of combat never seen before in a MMO. Telegraphing is needed because the boss fights are way harder then anything you have done before. With so many varied attacks it will blow your mind. Thats their goal. Try the game before we do the normal gamer prejudge. You may find something ya like. We keep yelling we want something new and fresh but when its given to us we trash talk it to the point we swarm and scare people away from trying it. We gamers can be fickle.
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