Originally posted by skyexile

 

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Originally posted by meddyck
I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

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I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it.

But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

I agree, D3 was lame. But, did you play D2?  One wrong click and you might as well make a new character.  That's just not fun.  POE has a decent system, and it actually is possible to respec.  Especially if it's just one or two wrong decisions along the way.

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Originally posted by redcapp

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Originally posted by skyexile  

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Originally posted by meddyck I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

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  I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it. But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

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I agree, D3 was lame. But, did you play D2?  One wrong click and you might as well make a new character.  That's just not fun.  POE has a decent system, and it actually is possible to respec.  Especially if it's just one or two wrong decisions along the way.

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i didn't overly no, but yea i was aware of its system, the thing with that game though was making anew character was pretty common, and you got a free respec with each death! It would be totally absurd if you couldn't respec at all in CU because there is more attachment to the one character. we'll have to wait to see what sort of skill system they plan to have in CU but im sure they could have something similar to POE or PS1 where you can only make minor alterations in a time frame or have the really expensive cost of respecing everything.

Originally posted by meddyck
If you make respeccing costly, then players will just look up what is the best/most popular/most op spec on the Internet and go with that. If you want to make a speccing system that has real flexibility and multiple right ways to spec, then you need to give players the chance to try something different and if they don't like it, let them respec and try something else. Limited respecs is one old school feature that deserves to stay dead.

Having limited respecs did absolutely nothing to stop people from experimenting in DAoC.

Originally posted by redcapp

Originally posted by skyexile

 

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Originally posted by meddyck
I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

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I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it.

But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

I agree, D3 was lame. But, did you play D2?  One wrong click and you might as well make a new character.  That's just not fun.  POE has a decent system, and it actually is possible to respec.  Especially if it's just one or two wrong decisions along the way.

I am still playing PoE for this very reason (Think through your spec) as well as  the trading and orb system- love it. To re-spec in PoE takes effort and a lot of resources to accomplish. I hope CU offers the ability, but only with a hefty hefty price...

Mark, I very much enjoy the CU blogs and am looking forward to this game. I do sorta wish I didnt know about it until it was just a few months out :-) I have never contributed to a kick Start before but I am going to for CU. DAoC is the best MMO I have played and offeres some of the greatest gaming memories with friends I met in DAoC and still play with online today. Reading those FP's really sheds a light on what I loved about that game. I am very pumped for this!!

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by meddyck
If you make respeccing costly, then players will just look up what is the best/most popular/most op spec on the Internet and go with that. If you want to make a speccing system that has real flexibility and multiple right ways to spec, then you need to give players the chance to try something different and if they don't like it, let them respec and try something else. Limited respecs is one old school feature that deserves to stay dead.

Having limited respecs did absolutely nothing to stop people from experimenting in DAoC.

Alts FTW. My first toon was an Avalonian Pally- I made it to lvl 15 LMAO. Someone was like, "dude- why you an Avalonian? ".

I liked what i read.  Honestly if you want to make this game uber, just stick to the way DAOC was in its first 3 years.

No auction houses

No mounts or fast travel

15-30 minute wait period to get back to action if you die in rvr or pve

Long hard tough level up to 50

No instanced dungeons

I mean doesn't everyone remember to glory days of daoc before trials of atlantis.  I'm not saying make a pre-TOA clone, but stick to those awesome principles. 

Originally posted by redcapp

Sounds pretty good, although to be honest it is a little off-putting the way he blames / ridicules casual players for the way devs have dumbed down their games. 

He actually blames the management and shareholders. Of course the casual players were the one whining that they want an easier game, but it was the suits who said they should buckle and give into those whines.

Waiting time on death is great. Dying should be painfull.

The running side (aka Hib to emain) was a bit mouch thoug in the begginning of vanilla daoc..

unrelated note.. vanilla Thidranki was the most fun gaming experience, hands down, all categorys, ever.

I'm not an alt-a-holic, I tend to stick to one main and usually have an alt to craft something my main can't craft. In Daoc I had a healer and a shadowblade and on Albion side on a different server, I had a Friar and a theurgist. The limited respec never bothered me. There was always a "best spec" so you'd just farm for gold like crazy or do a raid to get a respec stone if the "best spec" changed. I never felt limited.

I have no problem with making a game challenging but I fear Mark is in the same mindset that doomed DAoC.

When DAoC first came out some said it was EQ done right.  It was easier than EQ.  Quest rewards were shared in the whole group.  There were no corpse runs.  There were not incredibly long raids to go on or items to camp spawns for.  Then after release it seemed like every expansion was a step back towards EQ and making things as hard as EQ.

He is still being seduced by the hardcore gamers and the way they want the game.  When ToA came out I seem to remember it was even stated that not everyone was supposed to have artifacts but only a few players.  Well unfortunately people dont pay to play games where they get to be the punching bag of an elite few who have alot of free time on thier hands.

Many games have tiered levels of pvp where players can play against players in a somewhat equal environment.  DAoC had open frontiers and you could face very unpredictable opponents.  They might outnumber you, have better gear or abilites, be more skilled, etc...  (The unpredictability of DAoC rvr was actually a positive to me.)  However, there has to be a way for casual players to advance in pvp or you will have a very small niche game.  And from what I have seen, hardcore players will follow the crowd.  If a game loses its casual players the hardcore will soon leave as well.

Suggestions:

Do not put leveling in the game only have realm ranks.  This means the only difference between a new player and a veteran player is the gear, and realm rank of the player.  This means a new player would be like a new level 50 in the old DAoC.  The higher realm rank veterans would be more powerful but the new player could group with the vets and contribute.

Encourage grouping and community.  Have a realm point bonus given for each person in the group.  For example if there was a 5% bonus for each person in the group then a full group of 8 would have a 35% bonus to realm points earned.   Create many advantages to joining guilds and alliances and working together and holding and claiming keeps.  For me community is one of the most important aspects of an online game.

Have some form of pve in the frontiers like in DAoC.  Along with the monster camps, the Keeps also serve as pve.  As far as I know everyone loved Darkness Falls.  Having  a valuable dungeon open up to the realm which owned the most keeps was great.  Also let killing monsters give some realm points even if its only 1 point per kill or somethng.

Would it be possible to have a monster AI fight like an 8 man group?  What if there were roaming 8 man groups of npcs that used similar tactics as a human group would use.  This would make the pve much more fun if the monsters used crowd control and went after the most important player targets first and real players had to use smart tactics to beat the npcs.