Originally posted by sanshi44

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

F2P models are nothing more than an extended trial. So ultimately if a player likes the game they will eventually end up being subscribers or spend similar or more amoutn iin cash shop. So yes in a way F2P players get what they deserve and rightly so. But then again without these F2P crowd your favorite MMO would crumble.

This is what SoE has done with there games its basicly a much better trial of the game, and people complain that SoE is a money hungry company despite they offer one of the best trial of any game company out there appart from a complete free to play game which is usualy below adverage quality except for maybe some like GW2. If i were to pick the most greedy company that would be blizzard, most pay sub fee along with $25 mount in the cash shop, then not to mention World of warcraft trading game with ingame items such as the spectral tiger mount that some pople spend hundred of dollars on and not acualy play the card game because they wanted the ingame items that u could only get from the cards some people got seriously carried away with those cards lol wonder how much profit they pulled off those thing lol.

You show me a person that was forced to buy a mount from the store, or who was forced to spend money on the card game and I will unsub right now. Those are all a persons choice not some nerfarious act by Blizzard.

Originally posted by Latronus

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

F2P models are nothing more than an extended trial. So ultimately if a player likes the game they will eventually end up being subscribers or spend similar or more amoutn iin cash shop. So yes in a way F2P players get what they deserve and rightly so. But then again without these F2P crowd your favorite MMO would crumble.

You know what?  Maybe they should crumble.  As long as we, the customers, continue to support bad designs the industry won't learn a damn thing and yes some bad games are still around on this model.  We won't all agree on which those are, but I'm sure we could all name a few.

What bad design?

i am playing some games for free why others subsidize. What is so bad about it?

Originally posted by cybertrucker

Everytime a game goes F2P we see the same thing. People coming here to whine and cry about what they don't get compared to the people who have either chose to keep their accounts going or have started the game with an elite/paid account. These companies are not making these games for your charity. If a player chooses to pay for a game they should get much better service than the freeloader that feel they are entitled to the same benefits. I pay for the MMOs I choose to play I suppose the exception is GW2 due to it not having the option. In those games that' I dedicate my time and pay for I feel all the people who choose not to pay get what they deserve. I have listened people actually claim that all the limitations that get imposed on F2P are bad business models. Lol  not getting paid is a bad business model. 

 

i feel that you are using the word "free" here to your advantage to blame everyone who doesnt pay a subscription. Let me tell you something. I dont have to pay a subscription just because you dont like free players. And i should not have to sacrifice a game i really want just because its sub only. With that said, I can live with decent limitation for free players. Im totally OK with that. BUT, in game X, the money i spend in the cash shop is AS VALUABLE AS the money you pay in a sub so not all the "free" players play 100% free when the cash shop is full of cool stuff.

Again, dont assume every free player ignores the cash shop. Secondly, If game X limits any kind of progression to free players, AT LEAST they should sell the unlock in the cash shop so free players can purchase it and keep progressing and be competitive. This go back to what i just said, my money is as valuable as yours. If i want to pay a lot of money in the cash shop, i should be able to have (or unlock through the cash shop) everything a subscriber gets.

That is why i abandoned Swtor, Vanguard, and EQ2. No matter how much money i spend in cash shop, my character will forever suck without being able to use either top tier gear or high lvl skills unless i subscribe. As a free player im still paying money, you know? and once again.... These companies get butthurt because their games fail with a sub and then assume that the money spent by free players in the cash shop has no value to their game, only to feed their family. They are wrong. And you, my friend, are wrong too if you think there are no "free" players paying cash shop (even more than your petty sub) on our own will, not because the company is forcing us.

I agree with OP.

I also understand the F2P model and concern of people thinking that it turns into a carney game.

I don't understand people thinking that they shouldn't be treated different or have no restrictions vs. people whom give money to the game/company.

People need to get paid.  People are not working for free in hopes of your cheers and admiration to shower upon them.

The fact that some people REFUSE to acknowledge that, shows just how truly immature and messed up our entitlement society has gotten.  This is coming from someone whom thinks a social safety net is a good thing btw.  But we have problems and it extends far beyond gaming.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

What bad design?

i am playing some games for free why others subsidize. What is so bad about it?

There's a good chance that the model is not sustainable in the longterm. If that ends up being the case, the industry isn't exactly going to be in great shape.

It will be interesting to see how things are faring in a couple of years. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

What bad design?

i am playing some games for free why others subsidize. What is so bad about it?

subsidize?  that's an interesting choice of word you used there. 

If f2p players got what they deserve then I say Planetside 2 players got an awesome deal lol.

You basically get to play the full game at no cost... what more can you ask for? :P

Originally posted by Sijjistoryus
I don't mind FTP games having a 10-15 per month premium charge. What I don't like, however, is when you get these entities that will only release a cool race or costume if you purchase some $200 "founder" pack.

Dont worry about the "Drow Renegade". . they will later release a "Drow Mage" or "Drow Thief" etc.

I have been suckered into a few collectors editions because I hate not having all the options possible.  I rarely use those items though.  Lesson learned.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

 

F2P model is that the free players become content for the paid players, and the paid players pay for everyone. Some restrictions may apply :P

This is pretty much "it".

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by nariusseldon

What bad design?

i am playing some games for free why others subsidize. What is so bad about it?

There's a good chance that the model is not sustainable in the longterm. If that ends up being the case, the industry isn't exactly going to be in great shape.

It will be interesting to see how things are faring in a couple of years. 

I think that will prove to be the case.

Look at Aion and the "totally free" package. Isn't  this is the second quarter where it didn't make "enough" money?

which F2P model are you talking about?

F2P =  limited trial with UI elements to unlock with one time purchase, DLC for new content most often this is limited to expansions.

B2P = unlimited gameplay with all UI elements unlocked for basic play, some added slots and inventory space available in store, sometimes there's a DLC for expansions.

Freemium = limited trial with 60% of the ui locked, DLC's all over the place including those to finish the leveling process, locked character classes/roles, no storage email chat or bankspace to speak of, unless you subscribe to the mandatory monthly fee to do anything meaningful?

because I have to say, that if it's the Freemium model, I'd be complaining too with larger more successful game titles being the other two....

has nothing to do with the players has everything to do with the economy and the laws governing that economy locally.

Originally posted by xpowderx
I fully support the Original Poster on this. I sub only, as it should be. F2P means Cash Shops, and I fully oppose them except for the few who sell deocrative costumes :-D But any shop item that has a direct effect in game I oppose fully.

its ok that you fully support subscription. That is fine. But you say that decorative costumes are ok too? If i pay a sub i dont pay cash shop. If i pay cash shop i dont pay a sub. 

There is enough space for all 3 models (sub, b2p, f2p) to be successful. Just dont add p2w. Do ADD the quality content taht its worth the money that you want to earn as a company.

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by sanshi44

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

F2P models are nothing more than an extended trial. So ultimately if a player likes the game they will eventually end up being subscribers or spend similar or more amoutn iin cash shop. So yes in a way F2P players get what they deserve and rightly so. But then again without these F2P crowd your favorite MMO would crumble.

This is what SoE has done with there games its basicly a much better trial of the game, and people complain that SoE is a money hungry company despite they offer one of the best trial of any game company out there appart from a complete free to play game which is usualy below adverage quality except for maybe some like GW2. If i were to pick the most greedy company that would be blizzard, most pay sub fee along with $25 mount in the cash shop, then not to mention World of warcraft trading game with ingame items such as the spectral tiger mount that some pople spend hundred of dollars on and not acualy play the card game because they wanted the ingame items that u could only get from the cards some people got seriously carried away with those cards lol wonder how much profit they pulled off those thing lol.

You show me a person that was forced to buy a mount from the store, or who was forced to spend money on the card game and I will unsub right now. Those are all a persons choice not some nerfarious act by Blizzard.

You do realize your sub paid for the development of that mount they now want to charge you for. It also paid for them to develop the content they then turn around and charge people a box price for.

When you start to look close at what a sub buys you now days, it's a pretty big rip off.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

If f2p players got what they deserve then I say Planetside 2 players got an awesome deal lol.

You basically get to play the full game at no cost... what more can you ask for? :P

Yeah .. i fully agree. F2P players got what they deserve. I am a F2P player. I got what i deserve ... FUN at no cost. I am happy.

I disagree with Op on this arguement. The reason the games go F2P is because they are struggling. This is not games who have geared and managed themselves for F2P on launch, but more games that have succumb to this model to survive. The trouble with F2P is that it stifles growth and innovation from the companies and is nothing more than a penny-pinching and cut-throat mentality. 

For F2P I have three examples, 2 of which are negative, the third, positive. 

The Negatives:

1) Age of Conan - I was very very much looking forward to this game like you wouldn't believe. I had played the beta and enjoyed Tortage so very much and I was ready to end my love affair with WoW over this game. Heck, I even bought a whole brand new PC at the time so I could play the game at it's highest resolution. 

All through this game I loved every moment, every ounce of the dialog and story telling. Tortage was a dream come true, despite its many bugs, which I kinda swept underneath the carpet. Once I left Tortage that is when things started to take a rather sinister turn. The game was not consistant. It was almost as a lot of love had been spent on Tortage and the rest of the content was kinda rushed through. It just felt unfinished and after some time I just had to leave because the vast zones, the lack of quests and the sheer amount of grinding just rotted my brain. 

Now I put this game away, looking back at it as a moment of madness, with the vow never to be fooled again. Of course, a good couple of years have passed since then and now the game is F2P I thought i would give it another spin. To see, if I could actually get back into it. However, the F2P right from the get go limited my play so very much that i just felt frustrated with the game, I found the whole experience less than enjoyable. Since then I uninstalled my game for good and I honest to God feel that should they make all content to that game free and available I still wouldn't go back to it. On two occasions that game has been a bane to my gaming experience and I won't be fooled by it a third time. 

2) SWTOR - Again I was looking forward to this game so very much, pushed my way to the end game, did all the story content, companion content, crafting the whole nine yards. Then came the very buggy raids and dungeons that seemed to lack the initial buzz as the very first flashpoint held over me. Not only that the end game felt very lacking with very little to do. There was also very little reason to want to go back to visit previous planets and the hardcore areas of the zones were just not very fun, nor were the characters if I am honest. The PvP was also a bit hit and miss. 

Due to boredom and with nothing much to do I left that game, not so much with the level of annoyance Age of Conan gave me, but with just underwhelming dissapointment. 

Now the game went F2P and I thought I would try and get into the game again, I mean after all, why not, if I am not paying for it, what harm is there? Well, the game pretty much made me feel like a second class citizen. As if it should be my pleasure to be able to play their game and although I would say that it is possible to play that game under their model, it just isn't very fun. So, annoyed with their chop-shop cartel market, which to me, did feel like a bloody cartel with what they were charging for the basic essentials I left with the plan to never return. 

The Positives

The Secret World - Nervous with Funcom after Age of Conan I played this game and I loved it to bits! I still love in fact and the only reason I quit that game was because of the lack of options and content for the end game. There is only so much repeating and grinding I like to do when its aimless. 

However, this game is now F2P or Buy to play as some call this version. Because this game does not limit my experience I happily spend money in their shop on new costumes. Not only that I plan on buying all their monthly DLC content with their new missions and so forth. So I get to play a game I like, no limits and I get to buy DLC content whenever I please to extend my enjoyment. 

In Conclusion -

Make no mistakes, F2P models are there for struggling games. Hardcore supporters have to deal with merging servers, for a continued dwindling populace and its always a sad experience to see friends leave a game. F2P breathes new life into the game and this isn't to get people to play the game in order to get them to subscribe. You are kidding yourself if you believe that. 

People left the game because it was not worthy of a sub, that the game didn't offer them any enjoyment, or not enough enjoyment. The F2P model only serves to bring people into a game to monetise them. If a game didn't get the initial numbers needed to support the games progress then yes F2P is there to help introduce new players to the game to get them interested. 

However if you start to monetise players to the extent some F2P games are, then yes, of course F2P players are going to get annoyed and feel like they are not being treated with respect. I mean literally charging people to move a bit quicker, or to respawn close to an object or to do x amount of dungeons etc etc is just about limiting the player experience and only really serves as a means to turn people off your game. Of course, some people will stick it out. 

In my experience it is better to have the FULL game available to everyone and just to charge people for new content and cosmetics. Playing a game without limitations in place gets me invested, it makes me wanting more and if its free to play I consider the purchase of new content as a means of supporting the companies directly. 

This is why so many people buy into the Borderlands DLC and Mass Effect DLC's its because they enjoy the game and are immersed into its world!

Now, no disrespect to the OP, but its just daft to think that F2P players 'get what they deserve' we are not the ones who are jumping to play these games. Typically we do out of boredom. However the game companies DO want us to play the game and after all we make up a large proportion of your games populace and economy. Without us, you would have no one to play with. 

Originally posted by Quirhid
I haven't seen anyone complaining about how they don't get something for free. Must have missed it...

 Yeah I dont see much complaining about that either......Also Tsumuru TSW isn't free...IT costs 30 dollars to play.

When you can play a game like EQ2 that offers full content then people come to the forums to flame them over not having the ability to access every class/race and have all the same privaleges as a sub customer it makes me laugh... It's the F2P entiteld mentality that the non paying customers should be subsidized in their entirety by those who do pay... I can't for the life of me think of anything else IRL that you can compare this to... It's like someone spending $60,000 on a Honda so someone else can drive a Honda for free... But the free user also complains that they need to also pay for gas... WTF everything should be free!!!

I have to again refer back to Marc Jacobs...

Mark Jacobs said it best re: F2P vs Subscription! I really wish ALL game developers thought this way!

What business model (i.e., free-to-play, buy to play, subscription) are you looking at for this game?

Multi-tiered subscription with no free-to-play option but with (maybe) some cosmetic items for housing. I think F2P and buy-to-play have their places, but we are trying to create a very niche-oriented MMORPG that won't benefit from using those models. I'd rather have 30K people paying and playing monthly than hundreds of thousands playing for free and hope to convert 5%. This game is geared to doing one thing spectacularly, and that one thing is RvR. I believe there is a core group of players who have been waiting for this type of game, and our Kickstarter campaign will either prove or disprove this notion.

Source:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/05/rvr-unchained-mark-jacobs-returns-to-camelot/