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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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421 posts found
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3702

2/11/13 11:19:46 AM#261
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Don't care what they want to say but taking away my main two classes that I play was fuckng stupid. Running around in a world of all DPS is pretty boring, chaotic and lacks any skill to play.

i haven't been all dps in my 400 hours in gw2..

Are you a guardian? I am. I can be all that I can be...and then some.

Playing an Elementalist and taking aggro in a dungeon...now that's a whole other evel of "fun" :) 

  MightyChasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 311

2/11/13 11:20:25 AM#262
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Adamantine

Okay.

I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

Warcraft? Armies? Winning wars?

Sending in the tanks to be surrounded and slaughtered by the enemy? Terrific strategy (not)?

Now I definately have no idea what you are talking about.  

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

2/11/13 11:25:31 AM#263
Originally posted by Iselin

I'm all for changing things when the new things are better than the old things. Change for the sake of being trendy without making any real improvement is just a confusing mess that's not worth the effort required to learn the new system.

There are a lot of theoretical discussions about MMORPGs and their gameplay here that often don't translate into fun, intuitive gameplay. Ditching the trinity because it's old is one of those.

Take the much maligned artificial "aggro" system that has been the norm and get rid of it. Fine. What you get then is that when a mob, or worse several "mobs" are just as likely to attack the player with 1/10th the ability to shrug-off attacks as another one, you end-up with chaotic kiting encounters. Some people enjoy that, I don't.

To me RPGs are about evolving into a stronger player by learning and improving abilities... and then getting a chance to use thew new and improved abilities... "Running away" is not really one of those. I could do that at level1. I mean, it can spice things up as a minor part of a long encounter, but when the whole encounter is about running around in circles while the ones not currently being targetted follow behind beating on the mobs... well, it's just a comical mess. This is what. imho, GW2 dungeon runs are like more often than not.

If that's the best they can come-up with as a "trinity-replacer," I'll pass and continue with the old until something actually better replaces it.

And no, getting rid of classes so that everyone is just another tankohealer killer--same as the other 5 guys--is neither new nor an improvement. Hell if that's what it's going to be like, we might as well also get rid of the character creator and we can all also look like the same tanned, ambiguously asexual toon... wearing the one and only armor skin: that's just the visual equivalent of the game-play sameness those systems result in.

*facepalm* Ofcourse you don't just pick out the abhorrent aggro system and leave everything the same. The game was designed around it, so it has to be redesigned without it.

Also, combat in GW2 is not chaotic, its just different. If you don't see the patterns or can't make sense of the dynamics, it is your loss. It has roles, just different ones.

Roles are not the same as classes, and roles exist even without classes. Its the game mechanics and objectives which dictate the roles. Exploiting aggro has lead to a tank role and it is the cornerstone of the holy trinity. Get rid of aggro manipulation and you break the holy trinity. You'll have something more interesting. But again, you need to design the game around it.

All the alternatives might feel chaotic only because trinity, by comparison, is so formulaic and predictable; Its easy and boring. Nothing like real combat (although realism is not mandatory). It wouldn't be so bad if some developers wouldn't blatantly force a holy trinity in: such as into modern, sci-fi or space combat.

It is ridiculous that a guy in a tanktop, wielding a sledge hammer "holds aggro" while I am firing an M-16 behind him - shooting through my "tank". And players/monsters do not die even when a whole clip has been emptied in their naked torso from a point blank range. Super human monsters? -Fine. Humans? -No.

Anything to replace trinity in such case is better. I can't imagine a worse mechanic.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

2/11/13 11:34:47 AM#264

The Trinity is a very simplistic system to deal with a very complex situation. In the middle ages, similar to many games, like GW2, there were knights, bowman, infantry, etc - where was the healer - there were no TANKS doing aggro control, etc. It is a very fictitious system that was created to be able to play. It also dumbs down the AI system for the mobs, since the TANKS have to keep aggro - healers do one thing - DPS just does that - simple and mind numbing.

People, on this forum, keep saying they want more immersion and more 'REAL WORLD' but then they whine about no trinity? The trinity is less immersive - yes GW2 can be chaotic because real war is chaotic.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  supertouchme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/10/08
Posts: 69

2/11/13 11:46:13 AM#265

there's nothing complicated about "aggro" behavior in gw2. the amount of threat generated largely depends on your range and damage output.

i'm having a hard time understanding why people dislike the trinity system. again, you pretty much need complementary roles in an mmo unless you want to kite mobs all day and fend for yourself.

it seems like people want more realistic positional combat  but that kind of coordination isn't possible in an mmo.

  Epicent

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 670

Die clickers Die!!!

2/11/13 11:46:45 AM#266
I feel like Guild Wars 2 is truly aimed at players with ALOT of skill with there dungeon system among other things. Personally I love the game. Perhaps some of the gripes stem from nonskilled players?
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16944

2/11/13 11:52:38 AM#267
Originally posted by botrytis

The Trinity is a very simplistic system to deal with a very complex situation. In the middle ages, similar to many games, like GW2, there were knights, bowman, infantry, etc - where was the healer - there were no TANKS doing aggro control, etc. It is a very fictitious system that was created to be able to play.

The trinity is a very simplistic system. It also dumbs down the AI system for the mobs, since the TANKS have to keep aggro - healers do one thing - DPS just does that - simple and mind numbing.

People, on this forum, keep saying they want more immersion and more 'REAL WORLD' but then they whine about no trinity? The trinity is less immersive - yes GW2 can be chaotic because real war is chaotic.

But there is no reason why a "trinity" system couldn't be made that relied upon warriors blocking/protecting their allies while the squishier players shield themselves (taking themselves out of the equation) or moving to a better vantage point.

I know some people say that games like D&D didn't have a trinity but they sort of did. It just didn't rely upon this whole "agrro/hate" mechanic.

there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11241

2/11/13 11:58:23 AM#268
Originally posted by Sovrath

there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

 beyond easymode taunt, i find the oversimplification of 3 roles -- tank / dps / healer as being limited

 

I miss the roles that everquest had for utility, crowd control, buffing / debuffing   (read: enchanter / bard )

  Aeonblades

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 1773

2/11/13 12:01:20 PM#269
Originally posted by Epicent
I feel like Guild Wars 2 is truly aimed at players with ALOT of skill with there dungeon system among other things. Personally I love the game. Perhaps some of the gripes stem from nonskilled players?

I bet you think you are a better driver than everyone else too? Haha.

But no seriously, I prefer the Rift group formula of 1 tank 1 heal 1 support 2 dps, even if support is dps half the time. Support roles are fun and necessary to a games health imo.

But overall for me the lack of a trinity is a huge downfall, with no designated role the game becamse stale fast.

Currently Playing: ESO,FFXIV, various betas
Have played: You name it.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

2/11/13 12:03:57 PM#270

I didn't miss it. I don't think GW2 did a perfect job though either at keeping things balanced either.

I'm convinced there is no good way to do it because balance is pretty much impossible no matter what way you design classes.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

2/11/13 12:16:36 PM#271

I like the GW2 system that was developed around the idea of no defined role trinity. You can in fact play other games this way but a vast majority of the people I have played with do not. It seems like the trinity developed systems I've been in specialize heavely.  What I mean is you end up with a single class that is the "must have" tank with one or two builds that are the "must have" builds. If you try and stray outside of that you do not find many people that will play with you. So all the flexablity that has been designed into most games is tossed out the window. I think that the trinity has a profound influence on that. I only have an example of one which isn't proof but in GW2 without trinity roles typically (it does happen still) no one is asking for a defined role when forming a group or to see your build prior to invite. I think this allows the individual player greater flexabily. I am aware this is possble in other games it just isn't done for a majority of the player base.

It's odd to see "well in GW2 everyone is just DPS"  which isn't the case. I would say that there are more DPS only players in a trinity game then there are in a  GW2 group. This is because in the typical trinity group of say of six, you need one tank, one healer and the rest can be and is desirable to be DPS.  In GW2 everyone should be providing more utility and it is pretty obvious when they don't, hence the old, rez zerg mechanic that was being employed. 

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

2/11/13 12:25:12 PM#272

In Rift there many of the professions had roles that could be used in various Trinity roles - a Rogue could tank, an Ele could heal, etc. The problem is the PLAYERS, dumbed it down to 2-3 builds per profession, in dungeons, and that is all you could do. It was Trion thinking outside the box and players being so rigid, they won't change.

 

I think that is one reason GW2, went farther, knowing that players would resort to their familar roles.

 

Don't blame the game, blame yourself.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16944

2/11/13 12:34:18 PM#273
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Sovrath

there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

 beyond easymode taunt, i find the oversimplification of 3 roles -- tank / dps / healer as being limited

 

I miss the roles that everquest had for utility, crowd control, buffing / debuffing   (read: enchanter / bard )

That's great and I would agree tha tmakes it more interesting. But you still have roles such as the muscle, the healers/medics, the utility classes.

What I'm not for is the full plate wearing, broadsword wielding, stealthy thief who also heals by the will of the gods whiel calling down meteors from the sky.

I would agree that having "just three" types of players isn't very interesting but I would say that there are speciric roles that players can fill.

Of course, I'm old fashioned and like the idea of the warriors, the healers the mages and the roges. I think some bleed through can be interesting but allowing everyone to be everything seems kind of a mush.

  Ghavrigg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 700

2/11/13 12:38:57 PM#274
To be honest... yes. The trinity is more fun. Somehow, not having a role, to me personally, feels bland and unrewarding. Sure, you can use some skills and traits to better yourself to a specific style of play, but you'll never be needed for it, and the gameplay will more or less stay the same.
  Briansho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/06
Posts: 4786

Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals.

2/11/13 12:41:50 PM#275
It still baffles me seeing a healer/priest tank a mob that's 3-4 levels higher than him. They still wear cloth right?

Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  krage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 407

2/11/13 12:59:14 PM#276

 

The thing is there is a soft trinity in GW2, you can tank/heal and DPS in your group based on the scenario and aggro. 

Aggro/Tanking

Aggro is based on 

  • closest target to them
  • who is dealing damage
  • top damage dealers
  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
  • who is rezzing, they usually take aggro on rezzing channel
So you can tank if you keep these in mind, now tanking does not mean sit there and eat magic and blades to the face it means, kiting, LOS, and dodge rolling big attacks with smart cooldown management. 
 
Healing
 
Healing is more subtle in this game, and most classes should have heal/support abilities. 
 
Example my engineer can drop med kits that can heal for 3k every 10 seconds or so, plus a cleanse, plus a crit/speed buff. Other classes can also do AOE field healing, cast party wide regen or other things. Not counting actively using my Combo blast rifle 5 ability in water fields for aoe heals...or other fields even for buffs/debuffs

Now you may be thinking ah that doesnt count since the healing doesnt auto fill friendly life bars, but really the GW2 healing/support system is more about keeping players from dying than keeping them topped off like in traditional MMOs.

This means clutch condition removals, giving that ally your heal when they need it most, or using a combo blast ability in a water field to do a decent sized AOE heal...not to mention more meaty defense/healing abilities (Guardian blocks/staff heals, warrior heal shouts/banners, necro well of Blood, etc..)

The game is more subtle, and I think over time they can create truly challenging content that is based around proper CD management and team coordination than gear and statistics than popping the most efficient heals while monitoring HP bars in the party UI

 

1st hand Example:

I run a rifle engineer, I can knockback and net enemies to kite tank with my permenant swifness buff on kit swap. I get in close do as much damage as I can to draw aggro (DMG+Proximity) and then kite away if the boss is pummeling me...cant face tank in this game but doesnt mean there arent ways to "tank" or be primary target for boss.

Heal utility: Med kit - Can drop kits to heal allies and remove conditions, about 3k+ every 10 seconds to allies if I only ran with that kit although swapping to and leaving them behind is ideal to support/dmg with other abilities.

Utility 1: Changes based on needs of current fight although by default in dungeons I run with bomb kit for AOE slow, blinds, and dmg. On condition heavy fights I can take elixir gun for aoe heal and regen with cleansing, or any other kits I have that are best suited for the fight.

Utility 2: Toolkit -For aoe slow caltrops, shield block, and magnetism pull in. This is when I cant get away from the boss with speed or dodge I can pop shield wall to wait for dodge to regen or speed away.

Utility 3: Utility Googles-For my stunbreaker, blind immunity, and fury buff. I have traits that proc on crit so this even helps me and my allies by boosting my crit chance. On crit I have 50% chance to blind enemies for 5 seconds, 50% chance to apply vulnerabity, and 60% chance to remove enemy buffs.

Elite: Supply Drop (Several turrets, including healing turret, and several medkits). This one I mainly use in aoe fights to stun enemies and/or drop on allies who need HP from med kits and healing turret.

 

EDIT: Ah last thing I think ANET can improve on to make more players happy is make the support abilities more noticeable since most of the problems people have is wanting to be recognized and appreciated for their support efforts. IMO they could tune down the damage effects and beef up the support animation/effects...even my medkits mentioned above are fairly hard to see in a fight, but on skype/voips I usually tell people come to me for heals, or I try to drop them in their route.

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

2/11/13 2:41:06 PM#277
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by botrytis
 

But there is no reason why a "trinity" system couldn't be made that relied upon warriors blocking/protecting their allies while the squishier players shield themselves (taking themselves out of the equation) or moving to a better vantage point.

I know some people say that games like D&D didn't have a trinity but they sort of did. It just didn't rely upon this whole "agrro/hate" mechanic.

there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

First, its not that: Some melee fighters had to be tough in order to survive in melee. Others used their mobility and abilities to avoid damage. Having someone tough in the front was never mandatory like it is in trinity games. Defense in trinity consists of soaking damaga and repairing damage - The most idiotic form of defense there is if you ask me.

Second, in D&D, there was no shooting into melee due to friendly fire. AOE farming was not possible for the same reason.

Third: Ranged healing spells were rare, so while the party almost always had a divine spellcaster with them (Cleric/Druid) healing was somewhat unwieldy and was only reserved for emergencies in mid combat.

D&D is quite far from the holy trinity.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Tsumoro

Elite Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 287

2/11/13 9:02:29 PM#278

Both methods are best, for differen't reasons. I would say however that its harder for developers to make a non-trinity based MMO work well. Guild Wars 2, in my opinion does not have this work so well. It is very messy in my eyes.

The trouble with the tank, healer and DPS build is that not many people tend to play the core classes (tank and healing) leaving a huge populace of DPS looking for groups. People just don't like the responsibility behind it and in honest DPS can be BIG jerks towards tanks and healers. 

I have played all classes and all paths in most MMO's I have played and I would say as a tank, I get a lot of grief, even though I've not been responsible for a wipe for the longest of times. Anyone actively being aggressive towards me or the healer I kick, or if I can't I leave. It'll take them 20 mins to get another me, takes me 20 seconds to get another one of them. 

Now with non-trinity based games its a missed opputunity in my opinion. For it to truely to work they need to do away with lock on's and hit boxes. To make skills and abilities more attentive than automatic. A big emphasis should also be placed on craftables. It should be the norm to be self efficent with regens and armour/resist based potions. 

Boss mechanics need to change from a tank and spank scenario, to a more mechanic based combat which the environment could be a huge asset. 

In short, Trinity works, its efficent, its easy but not everyone wants to play core classes and progression suffers. It is also easier for developers to replicate this style, it is universal and gets people with MMO experience interested with a system they already understand. 

Non trinity also works-ish, because I still think it needs more love and thinking, but I do think the potential to grow with a non-trinity build is vastly larger than trinity itself. 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4575

2/11/13 9:16:56 PM#279
Originally posted by krage

 

The thing is there is a soft trinity in GW2, you can tank/heal and DPS in your group based on the scenario and aggro. 

Aggro/Tanking

Aggro is based on 

  • closest target to them
  • who is dealing damage
  • top damage dealers
  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
  • who is rezzing, they usually take aggro on rezzing channel

This is somewhat incorrect, though I do agree with the rest of your post.

Aggro in GW2 is actually based on:

- Proximity to target

- Who's dealing the most damage

- Who has the highest toughness

- Who has the lowest amount of health

Each stat gets a certain 'weight' to it, toughness being weighed the most heavily, proximity being weighed the least. The person who weighs most heavily over those multiple categories is the one who gets hit. Things like whether you're wearing a shield, or ressing someone doesn't factor into aggro at all. Neither does healing from what I've seen. In fact the best 'tank' you can be in GW2 is either a guardian using GS / scepter, focus. Downed players tend to get aggro, because they often have the lowest health pool in the group (it's generally significantly lower than a max-health player), and as a result sometimes you get hit trying to res a downed player.

That aside, the system (as like any other system) can easily be manipulated & exploited once you understand it. I gave an example a few pages back about stacking on guardians for smooth dungeon runs, with warriors doing the majority of DPS.

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 625

2/11/13 9:23:52 PM#280
Originally posted by Tsumoro

Both methods are best, for differen't reasons. I would say however that its harder for developers to make a non-trinity based MMO work well. Guild Wars 2, in my opinion does not have this work so well. It is very messy in my eyes.

The trouble with the tank, healer and DPS build is that not many people tend to play the core classes (tank and healing) leaving a huge populace of DPS looking for groups. People just don't like the responsibility behind it and in honest DPS can be BIG jerks towards tanks and healers. 

I have played all classes and all paths in most MMO's I have played and I would say as a tank, I get a lot of grief, even though I've not been responsible for a wipe for the longest of times. Anyone actively being aggressive towards me or the healer I kick, or if I can't I leave. It'll take them 20 mins to get another me, takes me 20 seconds to get another one of them. 

Now with non-trinity based games its a missed opputunity in my opinion. For it to truely to work they need to do away with lock on's and hit boxes. To make skills and abilities more attentive than automatic. A big emphasis should also be placed on craftables. It should be the norm to be self efficent with regens and armour/resist based potions. 

Boss mechanics need to change from a tank and spank scenario, to a more mechanic based combat which the environment could be a huge asset. 

In short, Trinity works, its efficent, its easy but not everyone wants to play core classes and progression suffers. It is also easier for developers to replicate this style, it is universal and gets people with MMO experience interested with a system they already understand. 

Non trinity also works-ish, because I still think it needs more love and thinking, but I do think the potential to grow with a non-trinity build is vastly larger than trinity itself. 

Hmm started out agreeing with you then you headed down the rabbit hole of "action combat".  IMHO "action combat" is a rather silly attempt to get console players interested in MMORPG's.

While not having a target lock  or a hit box in a console game played with a few people in your living room is OK, it makes no sense in an MMORPG where some people will be on 45ms ping times and others maybe on 450ms ping times (yes people do play MMO's with 450ms ping times and lots of them too).

As for "mechanic" based combat this is a widely held falacy. What happens when someone finds a way of avoiding a mechanic?

 Do you use the technique or continue to play the mechanic because it is "so much fun"?

ANSWER:  We all use the technique to avoid the mechanic, and this is because they are not fun at all, some of us just like to think they are.

In any case the point in discussion (trinity or no-trinity) has little to do with other discussions like targetting method and "action combat".  They are independent discussions.

Personally I would like to see a more complex version of MMO combat, one where having multiple mellee class players in a mutually supporting line takes the place of a single tank, where support and utility are important and where no-one stands behind the mob in a "puppy pile".

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