I think MMO's need to go back to the days of Twinking.

When "soulbound" released it was a mechanism on FFAPVP loot servers to protect a few important items you had equipped from being dropped. Now it is used as a way to make you go get the loot yourself.

I say go back to the early days of EQ around the time of Kunark. When the Fungi Tunic was the item to own, because you could use it on all your characters... there was very few soulbound items....no bind on equip....

As for items breaking over time... I say no.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Neherun

The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Neherun

The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

 

You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

Originally posted by Neherun

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Neherun

The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

I'm not missing any point. Yes, orbs are used here, escrow was used in EVE and motes/keys were used in AC. In both AC and EVE, game mechanics were built to support how the players were bartering and doing transactions. The players created those systems to compensate for lack of game support for what they wanted/needed to do.

Maybe I'm mistaken here, so fill me in - are there mechanics designed to support player-designated currency in PoE?  Not 'did players find a way to use orbs as currency' but 'are there mechanics designed to support player-designated currency in PoE'?

If not, then 'no currency' wasn't a solution. It was a problem and the players found a solution, not to economy problems but to an absent feature problem.

MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

I consider crafting to be right up there with stamp collecting as a fun activity....hmm, I'm susrprised one of the WOW clones hasn't already required stamps as part of the in-game mail system...maybe the next clone...

Item decay....no, thanks.

Originally posted by Iselin

MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Iselin

MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

 Technically, you're correct. World of Ping-Pong is yeat another way...you could even craft your own decaying paddles.

Originally posted by Neherun

 

 

You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

 

Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

 

But there is a reason that a "money" economy took the place of a "barter" economy.

for one, you have to actually find someone who thinks that what you are trading has any value to them.

Secondly, the  seller must  hope that someone is willing to trade with him something he wants/needs.

Money economies are faster than barter economies. Not only that but you take the uncertainty out of the equation. If I use x amount of materials to make an object I will want x, y and z in return for that item. But if no one has those items or they don't have enough then I need to wait until someone does.

That will take time. in the meantime I am sitting on an object I created with the idea of selling it. If I can't sell it then I don't have incentive to make another one.

Originally posted by Neherun

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Neherun

The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

 

 

You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

 

Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

 

One of the more interesting systems in this regard is AC. While there was a gold currency (called pyreals) and you could hold quite a few of them in insured cirtificates. it was not of much use.

The economy revolved around rare drops like motes and rarer tapers and item drops. Bartering system.

A currency that has not game function or very little (think Diablo 2) will end up with a barter system.

I've been saying for years that if a developer isn't going to bother with a functional, challenging, but useful crafting system, then they shouldn't waste the resources on making a crafting system in the first place.

If there aren't player dependencies, item decay, item loss, etc. then just don't make a crafting system. It's that simple. Make everying lootable and soulbound and put the money into other parts of the game to make them better. Stop making generic, unimportant game systems and just save the cash if you aren't going to bother making it an important part of the game.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Iselin

MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

 Technically, you're correct. World of Ping-Pong is yeat another way...you could even craft your own decaying paddles.

You really don't know that MMOs outside of the EQ/WOW formula exist? Really? Here are a few.

• ATITD
• Tales Runner
• Project Powder
• Crazy Kart
• Free Realms
• Gaia Online
• IMVU
• Muxlim
• HKO
• Furcadia
• OnVerse
• Red Light Center
• Sociolotron
• Garden Party World
• vMTV
• Kaneva
• Second Life
• There
• Habbo Hotel

Originally posted by zekeofev

One of the more interesting systems in this regard is AC. While there was a gold currency (called pyreals) and you could hold quite a few of them in insured cirtificates. it was not of much use.

The economy revolved around rare drops like motes and rarer tapers and item drops. Bartering system.

A currency that has not game function or very little (think Diablo 2) will end up with a barter system.

The best part of what played out in AC is that the developers created content to support the emergent currency and how players chose to trade in the game.

One example is the golem hearts. Players were using various tiers of treasure chest keys as currency, so the devs added craftable key rings so that players could store larger quantities of them in less space in their inventory.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

 

It's one of the MAJOR reasons why players are finding more tumbleweeds instead of other players in games like SWTOR, AoC, WAR, [...]

Do your homework and reform that statement.

?

What kind of comment is that?

It means your take on why aforementioned games failed is wrong. Economy is nowhere near the top faults in those games. Economy is not even a big crowd magnet.

So do your homework, research the subject, before making a statement like that.

The economy is the hidden backbone of a MMORPG. The economy is what keeps players interacting with other players. This "self-efficiency" trend is why modern MMOs feel so lifeless and stale.

What a joke!!

Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

Originally posted by Boneserino

What a joke!!

Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

Sometimes wanting is better than having.

Originally posted by Boneserino

What a joke!!

Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

And that is why we keep getting the formulaic games we keep getting.  Stick to the tried and true and don't deviate much.  This year and next year I think we'll see whether deviation works or not.

I'd be ok with item loss, decay is just annoying. 

Originally posted by Boneserino

Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

"Same people"? People, more than one? Same, the identical guys?

Do tell.

Originally posted by bliss14

Originally posted by Boneserino

What a joke!!

Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

And that is why we keep getting the formulaic games we keep getting.  Stick to the tried and true and don't deviate much.  This year and next year I think we'll see whether deviation works or not.

I'd be ok with item loss, decay is just annoying. 

Honestly it's more: "OH WE WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT!" then five months later it's "OH THIS IS TOO DIFFERENT! WHY ISN'T IT MORE LIKE THE GOOD OLD STUFF!"

MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY!

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Boneserino

Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

"Same people"? People, more than one? Same, the identical guys?

Do tell.

I don't think it's the EXACT same guys, but there definitely is a feeling of two things being said at the same time. There is asking for innovation, yet at the same time they also ask for a reskin of whatever game they feel is best, and the general group of people who ask for these things tend to be part of the same crowd, at least based on my observation.

Originally posted by Yakkin

the general group of people who ask for these things tend to be part of the same crowd, at least based on my observation.

So...people whose motivations you believe you know.

Easier to just ask 'em, rather than shout them down.