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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Item Decay is the bullet that must be bitten.

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143 posts found
  aRtFuLThinG

Elite Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1079

2/10/13 3:38:24 PM#21

Totally agree with op. I have been saying the same myself as well.

 The problem that WoW's popularity introduced is the idea of undying items. Without perm decay and decent crafting system, the system becomes stagnat and people at the top always have the best gear (because gear are obtain from loot and grind, and the best geared always gets the best gears fastest). Thus this forced every expansion to introduced new levels and dungeons, so they can drop new gears to obsolete the old gear; instead of meaningful contents like ownership of different types of things or politics system.

Perm decay allows for weapon levels and power to be ignored because nothing last forever, and people would want weaker backup gears when they are not using it for the best contents or most important pvp.

Plus as mentioned without perm decay, developers have to introduce artificial money sink that has nothing to do with the economy of the system. Perm decay IS the best money sink for in game economy because it is natural to the system and is self regulating through in game economy's supply and demand.

  goozmania

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 120

2/10/13 3:48:39 PM#22

I'm not a big fan of item decay; and I also don't find crafting to be an integral part of a video game, either... more like a side quest... However, I could support the idea of item decay, so long as there were tiers of items that were immune to it. High quality or magical items shouldn't decay; and in the real world, they often don't. We still have rifles and swords from hunreds-thousands of years ago, respectively.

To put it in WoW terms, if I can even remember. I think white, green and non-quest reward blues could decay, but purple and orange should be indestructable.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

2/10/13 4:10:19 PM#23
Originally posted by adam_nox

Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

If you answered yes to all three (or maybe just 2), then there is only one solution.  Item Decay. 

Since you've played EVE Online already, I can honestly say that I don't think you've really thought this post through.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  zekeofev

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 224

2/10/13 4:17:30 PM#24

I really enjoy non combat oriented progression in MMOs and crafting has always been one of the major ways of doing that.

 

While I do not think item decay is absolutely necesarry to make a crafting system have depth and meaning, I do think it makes it much easier to design a system to do so. Much easier.

 

 

  zekeofev

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 224

2/10/13 4:24:45 PM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by adam_nox

Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

If you answered yes to all three (or maybe just 2), then there is only one solution.  Item Decay. 

Since you've played EVE Online already, I can honestly say that I don't think you've really thought this post through.

Not really sure what the problem is here. Eve does not have item decay on use of items (except ammo) but rather when it is destroyed you lose the ship and a percentage of the modules on it.

 

Items do decay in that they are removed from the world. Item decay does not have to be an on use thing.

 

 

Item decay refers to items becoming less operative or being removed from the world in some way. It could be based on a timer, based on use, based on a significant event (death), based on PVP, based on world events, or tied to any number of other things. (Not all of these are even good ideas to do)

 

But since crafting generally puts a large quantity of items into the world you need to have a way to take them out of the world to keep the ones coming in more meaningful. An alternative to item decay would be less loot drops or no direct loot drops (and crafting materials instead) which makes crafting more meaningful as a way of getting items into the economy (they would be the only source, in this case).

 

Currently in most MMOs all you need to do is solo combat to progress. I want some alternative ways to make an impact back in MMOs.

  aRtFuLThinG

Elite Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1079

2/10/13 4:32:52 PM#26
Originally posted by goozmania

and in the real world, they often don't. We still have rifles and swords from hunreds-thousands of years ago, respectively.

 Most iron and steel items did not survive the years of history and had rusted away. Only very few well kept exceptions remains from period of more than 500 years.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

2/10/13 4:48:08 PM#27

Any mechanism that takes items out of circulation prevents excess items from clogging the economy.  I agree that item decay is one such mechanism.

 

However, I've never understood why sandboxers have such a strong dislike for items that soulbound on pickup or equip.  What makes item decay so great but BOE so terrible when they achieve the same thing?

 

intended as an honest question, not flame bait

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7955

2/10/13 5:09:51 PM#28
Op;the idea of decay in general is a good idea but implementing it might be a problem,unless decaay also affect pve raid?ok raid boss as all kind of decay,does it mean sometime the horde as to fix the raid boss gear while allie (or vice versa)come prevent your group !what is the incentive?this means this would happen in between real raid?this have a big feel of gw2 wvw?as most playing gw2wvww know !faction imbalance be it in number or player skill is a huge issue!will they (arenanet)need to balance action?decay would cause more issue then fix I believe.
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/10/13 5:16:38 PM#29
Originally posted by adam_nox

If you answered yes to all three (or maybe just 2), then there is only one solution.  Item Decay. 

 No. that is YOUR solution.

Giving items to friends has no tie to item decay...at all.

Crafting being worth something does not require item decay, it requires being able to craft more than just armor/weapons but also VANITY ITEMS and/or ITEM SKINS for new looks, and a large amount of consumables...why do you HAVE to create brand new armor? Why dont make a game that allows a player to have many different "style" tabs, so they can take their CURRENT armor and apply a new look on it a bunch of times to they can run around with different looks? I know I know, that requires thinking outside of the tiny box the genre has placed us into.

As for a functioning economy...all will be ruined by gold sellers, item decay has nothing to do with it, in fact, item decay will only make gold sellers more money because people will be needing to buy that uber leet sword of burn your face off every month.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Alcuin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 299

2/10/13 5:17:39 PM#30
Agree w OP

I would add that enchantments need to decay as well. More powerful magic items would be up to hold More enchantments and hold them longer. Enchanting becomes a necessary trade skill too...

_____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2650

2/10/13 5:24:08 PM#31

Item decay can suck, but in a game like classic UO, item decay/repair, and the use of a lot of expendable items that are crafted fueled vendors and crafters, while the people that wanted nothing to do with it could make enough to afford to just buy what they needed.

 

No one was hampered imo, by the system.  If you enjoyed crafting, you could do so and not do much else, if you wished, be a crafter/merchant, and nearly all forms of crafting were useful.  People that hated crafting, just pvp'd or did pve and bought what they wanted from people, if they needed more.

 

I like to play all aspects of a game, pve, pvp, and harvest/craft.  It breaks things up, and I go do what I feel like, so I am not doing the same thing all the time.  All of those combined, with non-instanced housing are what made games like classic UO still a favorite of many people.

 

Some other games have had good systems also, but ones with no decay, or bland/useless harvesting/crafting, I get bored with very quickly anymore.  Before I played Rift, I had never played a MMO less than 1 year, everything seems to evolved into quest hubs, and daily quests for the most part....With bland crafting/harvesting.

 

I do not mind a grind, but when something comes too easy in a MMO, it doesn't mean much, from my perspective.  I know a lot of people that have posted in this thread are of the, I play 10 games at a time, play f2p games for a week/month, then move on and love it....So obviously the OP was not talking to you, since you do not stick in a game long enough for even a item to decay, if it did.  I think the OP's target is the non-mmo hopper.

 

Before you take offense to that, as many of you have said, who is someone else to tell you how to play or what to enjoy, which is true.  Just seems pointless to argue this, if you are a serial game jumper.

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7955

2/10/13 5:28:39 PM#32
Putting a decayon all added item,like gem enchant etc now I agree.like if you have addition (leather boost)then your base item(armor in this case don't devlcay .but if you didn't enhance say weapon the that piece decay .this would actually work and relatively easy for most mmo to add .i love this solution to stabilize economy of mmo
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

2/10/13 5:37:35 PM#33
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by adam_nox

Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

If you answered yes to all three (or maybe just 2), then there is only one solution.  Item Decay. 

Since you've played EVE Online already, I can honestly say that I don't think you've really thought this post through.

Not really sure what the problem is here. Eve does not have item decay on use of items (except ammo) but rather when it is destroyed you lose the ship and a percentage of the modules on it.

Items do decay in that they are removed from the world. Item decay does not have to be an on use thing.

 ...

Item decay refers to items becoming less operative or being removed from the world in some way. It could be based on a timer, based on use, based on a significant event (death), based on PVP, based on world events, or tied to any number of other things. (Not all of these are even good ideas to do)

Item loss and item decay are two different mechanics. Like breakage and consumption, they are some of the ways in which items are removed from the system. Item decay is not the only solution, nor is it a generic term for removing items from the system.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Alcuin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 299

2/10/13 5:38:24 PM#34
This also goes hand in hand with making the most powerful items in the game be player crafted.

Mobs could drop ruined items or materials that might be used to forge a variety of things. Takes away camping mobs and emphasizes player interdependence in the crafting realm.

_____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3739

RIP City of Heroes!

2/10/13 6:06:42 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by adam_nox

Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

Don't really care.

Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

I can already do that.

Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

Define "functioning". I don't see anything wrong MMO economy today.

 

 Economies function.   I suspect he thinks functioning means he has an idea of a correct economy rather than a wrong economy. 

Does item decay help the regular player?  we know it's great for the crafters.

  zekeofev

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 224

2/10/13 6:10:27 PM#36
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by adam_nox

Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

If you answered yes to all three (or maybe just 2), then there is only one solution.  Item Decay. 

Since you've played EVE Online already, I can honestly say that I don't think you've really thought this post through.

Not really sure what the problem is here. Eve does not have item decay on use of items (except ammo) but rather when it is destroyed you lose the ship and a percentage of the modules on it.

Items do decay in that they are removed from the world. Item decay does not have to be an on use thing.

 ...

Item decay refers to items becoming less operative or being removed from the world in some way. It could be based on a timer, based on use, based on a significant event (death), based on PVP, based on world events, or tied to any number of other things. (Not all of these are even good ideas to do)

Item loss and item decay are two different mechanics. Like breakage and consumption, they are some of the ways in which items are removed from the system. Item decay is not the only solution, nor is it a generic term for removing items from the system.

 

They are not two completely different mechanics but variations of the same goal to get items out of the main system in some ways. For example there is not much difference between item decay and item loss when an item that is fully decayed is obsolete to the most accesible and avaliable replacement gear. The goal of them is the same although the exact mechanics are different.

 

I take it you would argue they are completely different because in EVE for example you can play the exact same ship endlessly if you do not die in it (save ammo). Which is different then say SWG where there was an inevitible decline to the effectiveness of your item. However I could easily make a decaying system where it decayed in a set and avoidable manner (like on death) and an item loss system happen in an inevitible way (like on a timer).

 

I think it is fair to be able to talk about these mechanics under one umbrella even if yes, they are seperate in some ways.

 

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

2/10/13 6:21:43 PM#37
Originally posted by zekeofev

I take it you would argue they are completely different because in EVE for example you can play the exact same ship endlessly if you do not die in it (save ammo).

No, I argue that they are two different mechanics because they ARE two different mechanics.

Item decay is wear and tear. It is a reduction of durability. It is decay. It does not necessarily result in item loss, and is more commonly used as a method of taking currency out of the system than of taking items out of the system.

Item loss is the complete removal of the item from the system. This could be as a result of decay, breakage, crafting failure or any number of methods.

Loss and decay are two different ways to remove items or currency from the game, loss being direct and decay being indirect.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Yalexy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1039

2/10/13 6:31:38 PM#38

Guys, there's really no need to discuss the difference between item decay and destruction etc. The only thing that matters is, that items get constantly removed from the game.

An economy can only work, if theres constant demand for new items and materials. Once everyone has all he needs, the economy dies.

Look at your typical MMO like WoW. The only thing that's constantly needed is pots and potions, the best items are allways looted and never break or get lost.
Crafting in MMOs like this is a very basic sidegame, that might help you while leveling up, but as soon as you hit max-level you want to retrain into cooking or whatever is needed for pots and potions.
Runes and inscriptions are changed aswell from time to time, but that's not nearly enough to drive an economy, where specialized farmers and crafters are actually needed.

The best way to create an economy is to have all the best items crafted by specilized players, who invested lots of time to become a master blacksmith or whatever, and to make sure that the economy is kept alive is to have all items vanish from the game at some point, be it by decay over time or by destruction upon death.

I would actually prefer a mix. Decay over time for all and random destruction of a few items upon death. This guarantees a never sleeping economy, with constant demand for new materials and items.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

2/10/13 6:35:29 PM#39
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by adam_nox

Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo?

Don't really care.

Do you want to be able to give items to your friends?

I can already do that.

Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy?

Define "functioning". I don't see anything wrong MMO economy today.

 

That's pretty much how I feel too.  For the second, I'd much rather help a friend go out and find an item of their own rather than relying on me to give them my cast-offs.  That's a problem I see in lots of these games, where people will create a secondary character, then pile a lot of crap from their first character so the second doesn't actually have to do any work.  I'd much rather see all characters, even alts, have to earn their way in the world.

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  Yalexy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1039

2/10/13 6:39:59 PM#40


Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by adam_nox Do you want crafting to play an important role in an mmo? Don't really care. Do you want to be able to give items to your friends? I can already do that. Do you want your mmo to have a functioning economy? Define "functioning". I don't see anything wrong MMO economy today.
 
That's pretty much how I feel too.  For the second, I'd much rather help a friend go out and find an item of their own rather than relying on me to give them my cast-offs.  That's a problem I see in lots of these games, where people will create a secondary character, then pile a lot of crap from their first character so the second doesn't actually have to do any work.  I'd much rather see all characters, even alts, have to earn their way in the world.

With items decaying over time and even more so on use, you can't hoard items and then give them to your alts whenever you seem fit, as they'll vanish at some point no matter what.

You can try to save them items for longer, but this will require repairs.

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