Originally posted by fivoroth

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support.

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support.

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

That's not based on very limited play. I have played quite a lot and I STILL play the game actively. I have played every single dungeon in the game and I have played quite a few classes. Yes, there is some support you can provide but that's not any different to what DPS classses do in other MMOs. In other MMOs if you are a dps class you have to buff, crowd control etc. In GW2 you do pretty similar things.

Of course, if you explain to me what more you do in GW2, I would be quite happy to elaborate on it?

Not voted.

There are infinity more options to design a game. The world is not black and white. Sorry OP.

Edit: Oh and Self-heal IS the way to go. In my eyes the whole content should be soloable (but be incredible hard to do so) for the hardcore players who want to do so. So yes, self-heal is a must imo.

Roles are cool but after a few years it feels more like a job and brings out the worse in people. I’d like to see a game like Vindictus only with an open seamless world.  No matter what combo of classes you run a dungeon with it has a different feel on how a battle goes. The mob AI works so well with their combat model when the boss turns towards you for hitting him you get the feeling he’s after you. Everybody shares the experience unlike  like a tank class in a trinity where they’re the only one with boss’s attention more immersive if you ask me. Never do you have anyone bitching about how much healing or dps you did no waiting for tank, healer, dps for a group, Queue up see what you got and run with it. 

Yeah, Fivoroth's post confused me as well.  I mean sure, roles in GW2 are less obvious, but that's the point.  It is NOT all DPS.  There were times in the few dungeon runs I've done where I had to stop and place protection or healing on my party or we would have had more wipes.  The reason?  Well, I was actually thinking for once.  As a healer in WoW, or even a tank (though tanking was more fun to me.. aside from the yelling), I'd get bored.  In every trinity game since WoW, I'd get bored. 

Support roles are not just something ANet made up to sound trendy.  You just have to know what you're doing.  The great thing to me is, if you aren't needed for support at that precise moment, you can still do something else.  As a healer in WoW, if no one was losing health, you were just eye candy - and after Cata, you almost didn't need healers in dungeons til level 60.  I heard from a friend who quit WoW recently that things are so easy now it's not worth playing.  I blame that reason on a poorly implimented trinity system... and of course, nerfs.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support.

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

That's not based on very limited play. I have played quite a lot and I STILL play the game actively. I have played every single dungeon in the game and I have played quite a few classes. Yes, there is some support you can provide but that's not any different to what DPS classses do in other MMOs. In other MMOs if you are a dps class you have to buff, crowd control etc. In GW2 you do pretty similar things.

Of course, if you explain to me what more you do in GW2, I would be quite happy to elaborate on it?

no you don't i played Rift for a good long time and as a dps rogue i only had to do one thing.. dps. If i played a support rogue i did more but overall most trinity games i have played don't require each role to step out very far at all from their dps, tank, or healing role in the slightest

on your edit.. if you don't understand gw2 roles i'd watch this it's an old one but explains it well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfy9ZRPTcaU

1. As some who always plays healers, I never wanted the trinity gone to begin with.
2. GW2 does have a trinity, just not the one we're used to - it's damage, support, control, and most professions do at least two of them.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support.

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

That's not based on very limited play. I have played quite a lot and I STILL play the game actively. I have played every single dungeon in the game and I have played quite a few classes. Yes, there is some support you can provide but that's not any different to what DPS classses do in other MMOs. In other MMOs if you are a dps class you have to buff, crowd control etc. In GW2 you do pretty similar things.

Of course, if you explain to me what more you do in GW2, I would be quite happy to elaborate on it?

I find it so bloody irritating that the views of anyone who criticises GW2 are dismissed by the fanbois on some ill-founded nonsense that they have insufficient experience or have failed to learn how to play.  

This is an mmo site and GW2 was the biggest release of last year, I would imagine a hell of a lot of people here will have played it quite extensively.  And believe it or not, it really is not all that disimilar to most other mmo's on the market, there is really not all that much to learn.  

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

 

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. 

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

And what exactly are the roles in GW 2? And dont say support because there is no class which can do full support, you still need to do a lot of DPS inbetween the cooldowns.

In GW 2 you have to take turns doing support and most of the time you just do DPS DPS DPS. Boring.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

 

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. 

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

And what exactly are the roles in GW 2? And dont say support because there is no class which can do full support, you still need to do a lot of DPS inbetween the cooldowns.

In GW 2 you have to take turns doing support and most of the time you just do DPS DPS DPS. Boring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfy9ZRPTcaU

gw2 you don't play just a "single" role at any one time that's the whole point of it

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

 

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. 

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

And what exactly are the roles in GW 2? And dont say support because there is no class which can do full support, you still need to do a lot of DPS inbetween the cooldowns.

In GW 2 you have to take turns doing support and most of the time you just do DPS DPS DPS. Boring.

Well someone argued just above that DPS in most MMO's can CC... does that mean there are no classes that are full DPS in those games?  Your argument is based on your opinion which is great, but I don't think you're looking at the whole picture.  Even a priest in WoW can dps with offensive spells on the disc tree, does that mean they're not full healer classes?  Your logic is off.  I've played a support role in GW2.

Now what?

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support.

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

That's not based on very limited play. I have played quite a lot and I STILL play the game actively. I have played every single dungeon in the game and I have played quite a few classes. Yes, there is some support you can provide but that's not any different to what DPS classses do in other MMOs. In other MMOs if you are a dps class you have to buff, crowd control etc. In GW2 you do pretty similar things.

Of course, if you explain to me what more you do in GW2, I would be quite happy to elaborate on it?

no you don't i played Rift for a good long time and as a dps rogue i only had to do one thing.. dps. If i played a support rogue i did more but overall most trinity games i have played don't require each role to step out very far at all from their dps, tank, or healing role in the slightest

on your edit.. if you don't understand gw2 roles i'd watch this it's an old one but explains it well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfy9ZRPTcaU

In Rift maybe not but in EQ2 and WoW you did have to debuff/CC a lot as a dps. Don't get me wrong I love GW2 and it's the only MMO I have played in the last 1-2 years. I still play the game and I love a lot about it. But the absence of tanks/healers or more dedicated roles is certainly not one of my favourite highlights about the game.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fivoroth

No, I don't like not having any roles at all. It is one thing to have a hybrid class but it's a completely different story when you completely remove roles. I think that MMOs should still focus on the different roles but have one class have more than 1 role. So say your class can be specced as a healer, tank, dps, CC/buffer/support. I think WoW's hybrid classes are a good example of this.

What we have in GW2 is kinda meh PvE wise. In GW2 you have no roles. It's not like you switch between roles in combat in GW2. In GW2 everyone and their dog play DPS. There is no healing in the game in any real form. When playing GW2's dungeons I feel like I am just playing DPS. You pew pew pew pew....throw in some buffs/super minor heals and kite like crazy then pew pew again. That's NOT fun. It is fun for a while but it gets extremely monotonous. What's even more annoying that dungeons revolve around some what I would call "gimmick" mechanics and strategies. Kiting and running away from mobs is just stupid and everyone runs around like a headless chicken while the rest of the party do DPS.

At the end of the day, don't get fooled that GW2 abandoned the roles system. What they did was just give everyone one role - DPS. Everyone in the game is DPS with some minor support/buffs capabilities which is EXACTLY what DPS classes do in other MMOs - aka dps + buffs/minor support.

what are you talking about? and if you are just running around a dungeon doing dps and nothing else i bet you guys are wiping a lot or people are getting angry with you.. or you are just grouping with some people that really know how to play gw2 roles well.. also no healing at all in any form? have you really not played the game at all and are making blind assumptions based on a very limited amount of play?

That's not based on very limited play. I have played quite a lot and I STILL play the game actively. I have played every single dungeon in the game and I have played quite a few classes. Yes, there is some support you can provide but that's not any different to what DPS classses do in other MMOs. In other MMOs if you are a dps class you have to buff, crowd control etc. In GW2 you do pretty similar things.

Of course, if you explain to me what more you do in GW2, I would be quite happy to elaborate on it?

no you don't i played Rift for a good long time and as a dps rogue i only had to do one thing.. dps. If i played a support rogue i did more but overall most trinity games i have played don't require each role to step out very far at all from their dps, tank, or healing role in the slightest

These are folks clearly never played the game or just plain bad!

Every Profession have some form Buff, interrupt or CC, I'm convinced some these cats are just terrible players!

Originally posted by fivoroth

 

In Rift maybe not but in EQ2 and WoW you did have to debuff/CC a lot as a dps. Don't get me wrong I love GW2 and it's the only MMO I have played in the last 1-2 years. I still play the game and I love a lot about it. But the absence of tanks/healers or more dedicated roles is certainly not one of my favourite highlights about the game.

that i can understand as some just prefer the more defined roles in combat and don't like having to switch roles on the fly in combat constantly

Originally posted by dreamscaper

1. As some who always plays healers, I never wanted the trinity gone to begin with.
2. GW2 does have a trinity, just not the one we're used to - it's damage, support, control, and most professions do at least two of them.

I agree with GW2 having those roles but without a hard core aggro mechanic built to the mob AI and a class with taunt mechanics built in it doesn't fall into a trinity model. Trinity combat model doesn’t necessarily mean 3 like in its literal sense.  More a class who totally holds a mob attention and depends on support from the rest whether it’s healing and dps. There has been different flavors yes but pretty much revolves around the mobs AI hate mechanics.

Please don’t say soft trinity..

In answer to the OP. Not just yes but HELL YES!

I just dont think the system works very well. Its not that it doesnt work, I just dont find it to be that great of an answer. Maybe a system like this could work if implemented better, but I cant see it. So another game company needs to prove me wrong. Again this is IMO.

Also just from a personal perspective. I just didnt like it. I know I know there are problems with highly specific class systems, and having to wait for a group for hours. Even still I like the ultra-focused interdependent team play. So Id rather see systems that make this kind of thing work better, than eliminate true Trinity (or better Quad-roles that include CC classes).

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by kitarad
My problem with gw 2 is that it is not a good implementation of the no holy trinity idea. I think City of X did it way better and people were still able to have clear roles which is the main reason it fails in gw 2.

They must have changed from CoH, because CoH definitely copied the EQ, Tank, Heal, CC, DPS methodology.

I should have been more precise it was City of Villains . In city of Villians the heals were not that strong. Neither was the crowd control so each combination had to debuff,shield ,heal and send pets in to tank to some extent because brutes were no tanks. Even in City of Heroes you could play without tanks if you used crowd controls and debuffs but each person knew their role it was how they worked together that made the game interesting. If not for the mission maps that got old the gameplay actually rocked. When classes no longer have a delienation of roles is when the game loses cohesion and that is what I dislkike about the mechanics of GW 2 in dungeons. Yes it does work but no moments where you can triumph and save things. It does not have to be a trinity like City of Villians showed us it can be done and it will still give you heartbeating moments of absolute fun and even glory when you save the day. I know I loved that about the game. Never got that feeling in GW 2.

Originally posted by kitarad

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by kitarad
My problem with gw 2 is that it is not a good implementation of the no holy trinity idea. I think City of X did it way better and people were still able to have clear roles which is the main reason it fails in gw 2.

They must have changed from CoH, because CoH definitely copied the EQ, Tank, Heal, CC, DPS methodology.

I should have been more precise it was City of Villains . In city of Villians the heals were not that strong. Neither was the crowd control so each combination had to debuff,shield ,heal and send pets in to tank to some extent because brutes were no tanks. Even in City of Heroes you could play without tanks if you used crowd controls and debuffs but each person knew their role it was how they worked together that made the game interesting. If not for the mission maps that got old the gameplay actually rocked. When classes no longer have a delienation of role is when they game loses cohesion and that is what I dislkike about the mechanics of Gw 2 in dungeons. Yes it does work but no moments where you can triumph and save things.

i do this all the time though.. as a mesmer i can do some amazing things.. i have held off encounters with my clones long enough to make a clutch rez and bring us back in the fight numerous times.. was doing a champion encounter yesterday where i held him off for 5 minutes inbetween keeping others around me alive and keeping him occupied..